Colombian president calls for global legalisation of cocaine, calls it ‘no worse than whisky'

Tarrou said:
whataboutery is typically used to defend something not to say it should be banned

the OP literally says cocaine is no worse than whiskey

so to engage in this debate you need to discuss alcohol lads
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First sentence makes no sense to me.

Second sentence is true, but the conversation has moved on from the OP.

Third sentence is ridiculous. The debate is about whether cocaine should be legalised, the discussion obviously shouldn't be solely within the frame of the president of the nation producing more cocaibe than any other.
 
Tarrou said:
whataboutery is typically used to defend something not to say it should be banned

the OP literally says cocaine is no worse than whiskey

so to engage in this debate you need to discuss alcohol lads
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You don’t though. The OP says something stupid and gets criticised for saying something stupid. Just because he says something stupid doesn’t oblige any of us to get bogged down in his false equivalences.
 
HTG said:
No. Why would I have to? That’s what research is for. Or should only people who’ve been addicted to both alcohol and cocaine be allowed to weigh in?
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No I just wanted context for your argument and to understand where you’re coming from.

Both myself and the others who are more vocal have used it and are giving you personal experience that it’s not a good idea. Why would you discount that in your argument?
 
golden_blunder said:
Same experiences as you. Cocaine nearly ended me. Years of going out and binge drinking every night didn’t come anywhere close.

I suspect that some arguing for, have never truly done cocaine
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I've done it loads but ages ago and I don't touch the stuff now. It's definitely awful for you. I've had friends who ruined their lives from pretty much all drugs you could think of, but alcohol has certainly ruined the most probably because it's the most ubiquitous

To be honest, and this is heavily caveated as it wouldn't be easy to implement, but I'd be in favour of legalisation for most drugs if it's handled properly under a more holistic approach to this issue in society

Drugs criminalisation causes a lot of harm too, and you could make a strong case for people being a lot safer under the safety of regulation
 
moses said:
The argument is much more complicated than that. Lots of people use it recreationally, for years. The harm the illegal production and distribution does to the already marginalised is a bigger factor in some people's eyes than someone's personal decision to get high.
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The argument probably is more complicated, but the ultimate decision will not be more complicated. Nobody in power is going to make the call to legalise it, and thatbto me is kind of it.

Couldn't agree more re the impact on the already marginalised, no argument here. Decriminalising use makes sense to me, but that's a different discussion.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You don’t though. The OP says something stupid and gets criticised for saying something stupid. Just because he says something stupid doesn’t oblige any of us to get bogged down in his false equivalences.
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we don't need to discuss alcohol to discuss the OP? how would that work?
 
golden_blunder said:
No I just wanted context for your argument and to understand where you’re coming from.

Both myself and the others who are more vocal have used it and are giving you personal experience that it’s not a good idea. Why would you discount that in your argument?
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I‘m not discounting it. But I value research much higher than anecdotical evidence. I also believe that many on here are making the mistake of equating harm solely with addiction. The harm alcohol causes goes far beyond that, same with cocaine. I’ve linked a paper yesterday about the link between even moderate alcohol consumption and cancer. It was somehow largely ignored.
 
Gee Male said:
First sentence makes no sense to me.

Second sentence is true, but the conversation has moved on from the OP.

Third sentence is ridiculous. The debate is about whether cocaine should be legalised, the discussion obviously shouldn't be solely within the frame of the president of the nation producing more cocaibe than any other.
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Really? Okay how should I debate cocaine being no worse than alcohol. I'm all ears.
 
Tarrou said:
I've done it loads but ages ago and I don't touch the stuff now. It's definitely awful for you. I've had friends who ruined their lives from pretty much all drugs you could think of, but alcohol has certainly ruined the most probably because it's the most ubiquitous

To be honest, and this is heavily caveated as it wouldn't be easy to implement, but I'd be in favour of legalisation for most drugs if it's handled properly under a more holistic approach to this issue in society

Drugs criminalisation causes a lot of harm too, and you could make a strong case for people being a lot safer under the safety of regulation
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One of the points I’m making is that alcohol has ruined lives because it’s widely available.

If cocaine were in that scenario it would have a worse record in my opinion
 
golden_blunder said:
Same experiences as you. Cocaine nearly ended me. Years of going out and binge drinking every night didn’t come anywhere close.

I suspect that some arguing for, have never truly done cocaine
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That's exactly how I felt.

HTG said:
So you’re basing this solely on personal experience and ignore all research that suggests otherwise? Doesn’t convince me at all, to be honest.
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Tell you what? Go ahead and... wait I don't think I'm supposed to write something like that.

You people who are galopping on that scientific high horse, just make coke widely avalaible and we'll see how that works out. Can't be worse than a couple of beers at the pub every saturday night, right? We'll see how far these studies will get you.
 
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To me it already feels like it is. Almost everyone around me uses cocaine, even older family members who I would never associate with the stuff. My dad who passed away used to be addicted to it. I've seen friends change because of cocaine. Also the level of aggression in the city centre on saturday nights is through the roof nowadays because the amount of people who are using it is so much higher than 10 years ago. I don't even want to witness a world where it IS legal.
 
golden_blunder said:
One of the points I’m making is that alcohol has ruined lives because it’s widely available.

If cocaine were in that scenario it would have a worse record in my opinion
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Yeah I agree with that completely. My position was it's only logical if both are legal or both are banned.

Obviously, as others have pointed out the fact that alcohol is such a huge part of society renders that unworkable. But I just mean in theory, it's the only logical answer.
 
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HTG said:
I‘m not discounting it. But I value research much higher than anecdotical evidence. I also believe that many on here are making the mistake of equating harm solely with addiction. The harm alcohol causes goes far beyond that, same with cocaine. I’ve linked a paper yesterday about the link between even moderate alcohol consumption and cancer. It was somehow largely ignored.
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Yes, alcohol use leads to many things such as kidney disease, heart disease, no doubt cancer. Same as smoking.
Yet we still make it easy for people to get alcohol.
That doesn’t make it right for cocaine to be do easy to get.
 
4bars said:
as another poster you can blame a drug to make fall from another in his case his go to alcohol, others might be M or others K to "balance out". The same can be said for people that drinks alcohol makes you use easier other drugs like cocaine is it is their thing.

Puting the blaming game to one leads to another is like saying that oxi brings you to fentanyl. It depends on the person. So comparisons should be 1 by 1 on effects in the person and sourroundings

And if cocaine brings you easier than alcohol than anything else, the more reason to consider alcohol worse because part of his big danger is its acceptability in society
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The issue is balancing overall harm against overall benefit and managing the harm as best you can when legalisation is suggested. The interaction between drugs is a part of that.
 
Gee Male said:
The argument probably is more complicated, but the ultimate decision will not be more complicated. Nobody in power is going to make the call to legalise it, and thatbto me is kind of it.

Couldn't agree more re the impact on the already marginalised, no argument here. Decriminalising use makes sense to me, but that's a different discussion.
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Not sure it is to be honest. I think whatever brings the greater good is the way to go. Decriminalisation of use is a good start to the conversation in my opinion. You get into the realm of personal choice and freedom. From a legal perspective it's fine to drink 10 pints most nights if you want to, but you shouldn't drive afterwards. Identifying where the crime lies is very important. And why is it ok to do that harm to oneself with one substance and not another? I think that's the point comparing is trying to make.
 
golden_blunder said:
Yes, alcohol use leads to many things such as kidney disease, heart disease, no doubt cancer. Same as smoking.
Yet we still make it easy for people to get alcohol.
That doesn’t make it right for cocaine to be do easy to get.
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It's ridiculously easy to get as it is. If you want it, you can get it, even in villages in the west.
 
I think I've argued too much in this thread and I just ordered an Indian so bowing out.

Appreciate all the responses everyone. I think I was probably wrong at the start.
 
golden_blunder said:
One of the points I’m making is that alcohol has ruined lives because it’s widely available.

If cocaine were in that scenario it would have a worse record in my opinion
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Which is a fair argument. To which I would reply that legalisation allows for stricter control, cleaner substances on the market and an overall climate in which it becomes easier for addicts to seek out help. It can also help fight the black market, which might be the most harming aspect of cocaine to society.
We shouldn’t forget that alcohol was most damaging during the prohibition, as it being distributed and produced illegally meant that the quality was much worse and more damaging than it is while being illegal. There are reasons the US had many campaigns to fight „moonshine“ back in the day, even after the prohibition. That same rationale can be applied to drugs like cocaine.
 
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That_Bloke said:
That's exactly how I felt.


Tell you what? Go ahead and... wait I don't think I'm supposed to write something like that.

You people who are galopping on that high science horse, just make it widely avalaible and we'll watch it unfold. Can't be worse than a couple of beers at the pub every saturday night, right? We'll see how far these studies will get you.
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Then don’t. But insulting me without doing so is just cowardly.
 
That_Bloke said:
That's exactly how I felt.


Tell you what? Go ahead and... wait I don't think I'm supposed to write something like that.

You people who are galopping on that high scientific horse, just make coke widely avalaible and we'll see how that works out. Can't be worse than a couple of beers at the pub every saturday night, right? We'll see how far these studies will get you.
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I dunno. I think coke = instant arsehole but the damage alcohol does is massive, even if it is my drug of choice.
 
HTG said:
Then don’t. But insulting me without doing so is just cowardly.
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I wasn't insulting you.

I was about to tell you to experience it first hand first before talking but that wouldn't be right.
 
Tarrou said:
I think I've argued too much in this thread and I just ordered an Indian so bowing out.

Appreciate all the responses everyone. I think I was probably wrong at the start.
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Now I want an Indian, and it's not even noon.

Make Indian food illegal
 
golden_blunder said:
Yes, alcohol use leads to many things such as kidney disease, heart disease, no doubt cancer. Same as smoking.
Yet we still make it easy for people to get alcohol.
That doesn’t make it right for cocaine to be do easy to get.
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It might make it right. Because history has shown that prohibiting alcohol causes more harm than it prevents. The same might be true for other drugs. It’s the same reason countries like Germany, Spain and the Netherlands have partially legalised weed and it’s within this line of thinking that Portugal has been quite successful in fighting the consequences of drug abuse.
You’re point only stands as long as legalisation causes a spike in use of the legalised drugs so high that it outweighs the benefits I’ve mentioned before, that legalisation might bring.
 
moses said:
Not sure it is to be honest. I think whatever brings the greater good is the way to go. Decriminalisation of use is a good start to the conversation in my opinion. You get into the realm of personal choice and freedom. From a legal perspective it's fine to drink 10 pints most nights if you want to, but you shouldn't drive afterwards. Identifying where the crime lies is very important. And why is it ok to do that harm to oneself with one substance and not another? I think that's the point comparing is trying to make.
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It definitely is a different argument. Decrinalising use is clearly miles away from decriminalising sale.

The part in bold is the fallacy in my view. It's not OK to do harm to oneself (or to others) with either substance, but that doesn't mean both should be legal. I think that's obvious. You can then jump to the next argument of why not make both illegal, and ultimately the ship has sailed on that with respect to alcohol.
 
Gee Male said:
It definitely is a different argument. Decrinalising use is clearly miles away from decriminalising sale.

The part in bold is the fallacy in my view. It's not OK to do harm to oneself (or to others) with either substance, but that doesn't mean both should be legal. I think that's obvious. You can then jump to the next argument of why not make both illegal, and ultimately the ship has sailed on that with respect to alcohol.
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Exactly.
 
HTG said:
Which is a fair argument. To which I would reply that legalisation allows for stricter control, cleaner substances on the market and an overall climate in which it becomes easier for addicts to seek out help. It can also help fight the black market, which might be the most harming aspect of cocaine to society.
We shouldn’t forget that alcohol was most damaging during the prohibition, as it being distributed and produced illegally meant that the quality was much worse and more damaging than it is while being illegal. There are reasons the US had many campaigns to fight „moonshine“ back in the day, even after the prohibition. That same rationale can be applied to drugs like cocaine.
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I would have more faith in stricter controls IF governments were stable, trustworthy types. To argue about controls when the likes of Trump and musk are around binning of health professionals and putting instead the likes of the Kennedy head case does not fill me with any reassurance. It just fills me with thinking that Trump could drain legalisation dry of more money. It’s a crazy time in the world to be discussing this idea; which is exactly why it’s been put forward now
 
moses said:
It's ridiculously easy to get as it is. If you want it, you can get it, even in villages in the west.
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Yes and no. If I want to get cocaine, I would have no idea where to start looking for. Even if I really want to get it, I would probably still struggle to find.

Now, if it is legalized, I could go get it and try it. Maybe like it and try it more.

I think this is the point that lots are ignoring. If you make it legal and widely available, people like me (or my younger self), might start using it just to experience it, and lots of these people will get eventually ruined by it. As it is, while still not very hard to find it, for a lot of people is hard enough to not ever try it.
 
golden_blunder said:
I would have more faith in stricter controls IF governments were stable, trustworthy types. To argue about controls when the likes of Trump and musk are around binning of health professionals and putting instead the likes of the Kennedy head case does not fill me with any reassurance. It just fills me with thinking that Trump could drain legalisation dry of more money. It’s a crazy time in the world to be discussing this idea; which is exactly why it’s been put forward now
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That I agree with. Any projects of this sort would need to be implemented with the utmost care, the necessary funding and with enough available personnel. The US obviously would be a horrible place to do this right now. But the general idea is absolutely one worth trying out.


And to go back to my general point: I really believe that many people even in this thread don’t realise how harmful alcohol is. The effects it has on society are damaging in a scope that’s almost impossible to comprehend. The burden it poses on healthcare alone is shocking. The way it impacts the life expectancy of whole communities is gigantic. Its role within violent crime and traffic deaths is gigantic, too.
I do mostly agree with what is written here in regards to the harmfulness of cocaine. But I really don’t agree with the comparisons to alcohol many make in here, wherein alcohol comes out in such a favourable manner.
 
Wibble said:
I dunno. I think coke = instant arsehole but the damage alcohol does is massive, even if it is my drug of choice.
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And you wouldn't be wrong.

As @golden_blunder pointed to, I personally feel that the amount of damage would be even greater if cocaine was legalized, which isn't any kind of attempt on my part to minimize the dangers of alcohol. This "yeah, cocaine is bad but alcohol is just as bad if not worse, so let's add another thorn to our side" is what gets me.

I think that some posters here who are trivializing the nefarious consequences of a regular and prolonged use of cocaine, truly don't grasp how dangerous this drug is.
 
The problem with any debate around drug legalisation is that people often concentrate on enecdotes and moral arguments. IMO we should be looking at the risk/reward balance primarily.

The arguments for drug legalisation (and I think that decriminalisation tends to just be a cop out) primarily involve balancing economic, public health, and criminal justice benefits against the public safety and health risks. Any change to the law would obviously involve significant regulation and harm-reduction strategies.

Legalisation benefits would include economic benefits from tax revenue, job creation revenue and savings from things like reduced law enforcement needs.

Criminal justice benefits could include hugely reduced domestic and international organised crime and hugely reduced pressure on law enforcement, courts and prison systems due to petty drug crime.

There are also lots of public health benefits including regulation of drug quality/safety and general harm reduction.

The risks are primarily increasing use, especially by the young, increased addiction, mental health issues and increased medical costs. You also have potentially increased driving and work OH&S issues.

You also need to avoid keeping the black market going by over-taxing and pushing the price up. You also need to avoid aggressive commercialisation that prioritises profit over public good.
 
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HTG said:
That I agree with. Any projects of this sort would need to be implemented with the utmost care, the necessary funding and with enough available personnel. The US obviously would be a horrible place to do this right now. But the general idea is absolutely one worth trying out.


And to go back to my general point: I really believe that many people even in this thread don’t realise how harmful alcohol is. The effects it has on society are damaging in a scope that’s almost impossible to comprehend. The burden it poses on healthcare alone is shocking. The way it impacts the life expectancy of whole communities is gigantic. Its role within violent crime and traffic deaths is gigantic, too.
I do mostly agree with what is written here in regards to the harmfulness of cocaine. But I really don’t agree with the comparisons to alcohol many make in here, wherein alcohol comes out in such a favourable manner.
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We do.

Absolutely true.

You seem to think that a (relatively) newer drug that's been causing untold ravages, whilst being illegal and its consumption relatively limited, won't be worse than alcohol which saw worldwide, cheap and nearly unrestricted use for millenias. Therein lies the flaw in your reasoning.
 
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