Cole Palmer | Chelsea Player

Rojofiam said:
Well, Hojlund will do exactly that, when United collectively become better on the pitch. I don't think you realize how bad United were last season at providing Hojlund with service. 38 shots in 2171 minutes is abysmal, and says way more about the dysfunctional team itself, than it does about the striker isolated up front and barely getting any good chances created by his teammates.
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Sure, but also, his teammates were shooting just fine. Casemiro averaged more shots per 90 than him. Garnacho, Rashford, Diallo, Antony, McT, Bruno all got their shots. So it's a genuine question if it will ever change with these teammates and manager

the good news is that while his shooting numbers in previous clubs were far from elite, they were also a lot healthier for a striker than what he put up last season, and it was his first season at a big club with on paper better attackers
 
I think I have moved most posts but can we try and revert going on huge tangents please that clog up the thread? It is about Cole Palmer after all. Have moved the other stuff to a new thread where you can discuss the talent battle.
 
Rojofiam said:
Not even remotely similar, though. United are a top 3 biggest club in the world and only need 1-2 years of half-decent leadership at the top, in order to compete for the biggest trophies again, with the likes of Madrid, City, and Arsenal.

Leeds are probably not even top 30, and Haaland wasn't even in kindergarten yet when they were last competitive at the top. There's also no way for them to reach that level again in the next 10-20 years, unless they're bought by a billionaire / nation state that gets their shit together like the Saudis did for Newcastle.

It's absolutely delusional to think Palmer playing for United at some point in the future is inconceivable and that we would be some sort of pre-retirement destination for him with no real sporting aspirations.

What you said in your post, is rathe closer to someone in 2009 claiming that Ronaldo shouldn't go to Real Madrid, because they weren't competitive at that time and haven't been a European superpower for several years back then. Except that United were a top 2 team in Europe at that point, and Chelsea are widely accepted to be a mess today, and nowhere near a top team. Or club.

You basically claim that it's as difficult for United to become a City/Madrid/Arsenal level side again, as it would be for Leeds? :lol: Or did I misunderstand?
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I think what this and other of your postings have shown is that you had far too red tinted glasses .

I do agree that Utd were in the top 3 clubs worldwide but the demise in terms of status and achievements has been in gradual decline for a while so sorry if they are still in the top 3 ( I have Real, Bayern and City as my top 3) they at best are clinging on by the finger tips.

The majority of your posts particularly in this thread aren’t measuring Utd by the same measures as the vast vast majority you are very quick to write off what is going on at Chelsea as a mess but as i say your red tinted glasses are blocking out the reality of just how much matters Utd are as puggled .
 
terraloo said:
I think what this and other of your postings have shown is that you had far too red tinted glasses .

I do agree that Utd were in the top 3 clubs worldwide but the demise in terms of status and achievements has been in gradual decline for a while so sorry if they are still in the top 3 ( I have Real, Bayern and City as my top 3) they at best are clinging on by the finger tips.

The majority of your posts particularly in this thread aren’t measuring Utd by the same measures as the vast vast majority you are very quick to write off what is going on at Chelsea as a mess but as i say your red tinted glasses are blocking out the reality of just how much matters Utd are as puggled .
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There's no way you just said City are a top 3 biggest club in the world. Please don't tell me that's what you meant. Please. If I have red tinted glasses, then you're straight up blind, after saying that.
 
Rojofiam said:
Not even remotely similar, though. United are a top 3 biggest club in the world and only need 1-2 years of half-decent leadership at the top, in order to compete for the biggest trophies again, with the likes of Madrid, City, and Arsenal.

Leeds are probably not even top 30, and Haaland wasn't even in kindergarten yet when they were last competitive at the top. There's also no way for them to reach that level again in the next 10-20 years, unless they're bought by a billionaire / nation state that gets their shit together like the Saudis did for Newcastle.

It's absolutely delusional to think Palmer playing for United at some point in the future is inconceivable and that we would be some sort of pre-retirement destination for him with no real sporting aspirations.

What you said in your post, is rathe closer to someone in 2009 claiming that Ronaldo shouldn't go to Real Madrid, because they weren't competitive at that time and haven't been a European superpower for several years back then. Except that United were a top 2 team in Europe at that point, and Chelsea are widely accepted to be a mess today, and nowhere near a top team. Or club.

You basically claim that it's as difficult for United to become a City/Madrid/Arsenal level side again, as it would be for Leeds? :lol: Or did I misunderstand?
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Mate, United are a mess and are going to need to spend a LOT of money to get back competing again and they seem to being going for a slow approach to things! Would I be surprised to see United challenging in 5-10 years, no it’s still a massive club and if they get a good manager in and sign a few good players they can get back to the top, but I would be absolutely shocked if united challenge for anything major in the next 3-4 years! Ten hag is not doing a good job but the players ye have are just average at best, a few there like Yoro, hojlund, Garnacho and Maino who might become very good players but everyone else is the finished article and still just average! I’d like to know where your positivity comes from, especially when you compare our squad to yours???
 
Rojofiam said:
There's no way you just said City are a top 3 biggest club in the world. Please don't tell me that's what you meant. Please. If I have red tinted glasses, then you're straight up blind, after saying that.
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City quite simply at this point in time are the top team in England to put any club even close to then would be denial. We could open up a whole different debate about how they got there but based on current on field success , income and growth in worldwide supporter base they are on a far steeper upward trajectory than others.

Going back just a decade or two by all measures Utd were without doubt the biggest club just as in previous decades it was Liverpool that rightly could claim that position but post the Fergie era the decline at Utd has been significant.

The difference between my “ blindness” and your red tinted glasses” is my other senses clearly can see the wider current picture where you seem to be seeing what the past looked like
 
This level of hype is making me slightly uneasy.

 
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WeePat said:
This level of hype is making me slightly uneasy.

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It’s not hype. The caveat is whether he can maintain what he’s doing, but in terms of why Carragher’s saying that, Palmer passes the eye test in a way we rarely see these days and further to that, the data and goal involvements back everything up.

Hype would be talking him up above and beyond what he’s done/doing.

It’s galling that you’ve very probably stumbled into the next superstar from a punt. -_-
 
giorno said:
It's the juxtaposition of "reminds me of Kaka" followed by "doesn't rely on pace", when Kaka's whole game was built on his absurd pace
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Apart from his pace and one-man counter attacks, Kaka was also a brilliant shooter from distance and a great passer with a deadly final ball. In his peak, he had everything except direct free kicks. Complete player.
 
TenonTen said:
Apart from his pace and one-man counter attacks, Kaka was also a brilliant shooter from distance and a great passer with a deadly final ball. In his peak, he had everything except direct free kicks. Complete player.
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Eeeeh. He had a great shot yeah, his passing was good but not really to the level of a De Bruyne, though obviously he could pull off exceptional ones sometimes. What made Kaka special was his pace
 
Fortitude said:
It’s not hype. The caveat is whether he can maintain what he’s doing, but in terms of why Carragher’s saying that, Palmer passes the eye test in a way we rarely see these days and further to that, the data and goal involvements back everything up.

Hype would be talking him up above and beyond what he’s done/doing.

It’s galling that you’ve very probably stumbled into the next superstar from a punt. -_-
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It's not just this, I'm seeing Palmer is the now the best player in the league shouts everywhere I look, without Carragher's caveats. Lots of people now using Palmer to shit on Foden, Bellingham and Saka, which I want no parts of.

I'm relieved more than anything that we've unearthed a potential superstar from all the millions spent.
 
WeePat said:
It's not just this, I'm seeing Palmer is the now the best player in the league shouts everywhere I look, without Carragher's caveats. Lots of people now using Palmer to shit on Foden, Bellingham and Saka, which I want no parts of.

I'm relieved more than anything that we've unearthed a potential superstar from all the millions spent.
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But from the data and the eyes, he is until either he slides or others pick up the baton.

What people tend to be reluctant on is awarding such a prestigious claim to a player who most hadn’t even heard of 18-months ago - the stalwarts of the league are not supposed to be dislodged by some relative no-name kid, which is fair and logical. Problem there is in the cold light of day, you can scrutinise all you want and the conclusion has to be that he is there or thereabouts up to this point in time.

The next phase may derail him because now the media are on him, the global spotlight is intensifying and now he’s going to be the first point of order for the opposition, and that is obviously a massive leap from being a background performer, rather understated and as downplayed as possible.

Bale popped up and just kept going and going in an upward trajectory and I think he shares the similarity with Palmer in terms of coming out of nowhere and lighting things up. It’s very different from the Rooney’s, Owen’s, Fowler’s, Gerrard’s and Voldermort who were all prodigies expected to take the league by storm.

Using Palmer to shit on others is obviously stupid.
 
Fortitude said:
But from the data and the eyes, he is until either he slides or others pick up the baton.

What people tend to be reluctant on is awarding such a prestigious claim to a player who most hadn’t even heard of 18-months ago - the stalwarts of the league are not supposed to be dislodged by some relative no-name kid, which is fair and logical. Problem there is in the cold light of day, you can scrutinise all you want and the conclusion has to be that he is there or thereabouts up to this point in time.

The next phase may derail him because now the media are on him, the global spotlight is intensifying and now he’s going to be the first point of order for the opposition, and that is obviously a massive leap from being a background performer, rather understated and as downplayed as possible.

Bale popped up and just kept going and going in an upward trajectory and I think he shares the similarity with Palmer in terms of coming out of nowhere and lighting things up. It’s very different from the Rooney’s, Owen’s, Fowler’s, Gerrard’s and Voldermort who were all prodigies expected to take the league by storm.

Using Palmer to shit on others is obviously stupid.
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This is where I am currently. I'm hesitant to put him above certain players that have a body of work spanning years. Palmer can only judged on the period he's been playing first team football, which starts from when he signed for Chelsea and in that period, it's hard to find better players, he's certainly been the most productive attacker in the league during this period. But this league has Haaland, Rodri, Foden, KDB, Saka, Odegaard, Salah etc in it.

Placing Palmer above some of those guys feels wrong. Despite everything he's doing, I still need to see more. As Carragher says, if he keeps this is up and he ends the season with another 25+ goals and 15+ assists with Chelsea in the top 4, potentially having won a domestic cup too, I'd probably zoom to the frontline of the Palmer is the best in the league campaign. Until then, it feels slightly uneasy to see people anoint him already.
 
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WeePat said:
This level of hype is making me slightly uneasy.

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If we keep this form up Carragher is going to be OTT praising us all season in the hope we forget and don't make a meme of him because of his ridiculous (dare I say childish) comments on the first MNF.
 
Best player in the league isn't some absolute statement. He may be the best right now. Two weeks ago it was between Rpdri and Haaland. Now Rodri is gone for the season and Palmer is coming off the best individual performance of the season so far

A month from now, who knows
 
Dancfc said:
If we keep this form up Carragher is going to be OTT praising us all season in the hope we forget and don't make a meme of him because of his ridiculous (dare I say childish) comments on the first MNF.
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I still can’t believe he went SO over the top with his scathing comments about us. He sounded straight up deranged and completely clueless. It’s the most bitter I’ve ever heard him.

Him saying “Chelsea aren’t a young and exciting team, there’s nothing there!” will be a comment that nobody is going to let him forget.
 
WeePat said:
This is where I am currently. I'm hesitant to put him above certain players that have a body of work spanning years. Palmer can only judged on the period he's been playing first team football, which starts from when he signed for Chelsea and in that period, it's hard to find better players, he's certainly been the most productive attacker in the league during this period. But this league has Haaland, Rodri, Foden, KDB, Saka, Odegaard, Salah etc in it.

Placing Palmer above some of those guys feels wrong. Despite everything he's doing, I still need to see more. As Carragher says, if he keeps this is up and he ends the season with another 25+ goals and 15+ assists with Chelsea in the top 4, potentially having won a domestic cup too, I'd probably zoom to the frontline of the Palmer is the best in the league campaign. Until then, it feels slightly uneasy to see people anoint him already.
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KDB is declining steadily. Salah is still effective but will decline soon(his dribbling and pace has already faded).

Haaland and Rodri are always mentioned in these best player conversations.

I think Palmer is just straight up better than Saka, Foden and Odegaard.

From the start of last season, Palmer has been the best player in the league. We are witnessing something really special here. Pep's biggest mistake?
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Ah interesting context to have - what did he say?
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That there's "nothing there" and we're not a "young, exciting team". He also used that tedious multiple players graph (which had academy players and Anjorin twice added to it) even though it was made clear by Maresca he was working with a "normal" sized group and the rest were working on moves away. He also predicted West Ham to finish above us.

Fair enough if he didn't think we had a chance of top four or that our squad was unbalanced, but the above was just a tirade for the sake of it.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Ah interesting context to have - what did he say?
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I don't think his overall point about Chelsea was particularly wrong. I was saying something along the same lines about buying too many players. The bit people had a problem with was where he said 'there's nothing there, it's not a young and exciting team'. That's the bit that has been clipped up and doing the rounds on social media now.

 
He makes it look so easy. He's so good that - and stay with me here - he'd even look good in this United team :nervous:

Not that that's ever gonna happen. People posting like we could and are going to sign him are living in cloudcuckooland :lol:
 
Dancfc said:
That there's "nothing there" and we're not a "young, exciting team". He also used that tedious multiple players graph (which had academy players and Anjorin twice added to it) even though it was made clear by Maresca he was working with a "normal" sized group and the rest were working on moves away. He also predicted West Ham to finish above us.

Fair enough if he didn't think we had a chance of top four or that our squad was unbalanced, but the above was just a tirade for the sake of it.
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I'm not gonna lie, I watched it at the time and didn't think there was anything too outrageous about those comments. The crux of his point wasn't incorrect imo, but yeah those couple of sentences were unfair but nothing I'd class as overly ridiculous or crazy.
 
Dancfc said:
That there's "nothing there" and we're not a "young, exciting team". He also used that tedious multiple players graph (which had academy players and Anjorin twice added to it) even though it was made clear by Maresca he was working with a "normal" sized group and the rest were working on moves away. He also predicted West Ham to finish above us.

Fair enough if he didn't think we had a chance of top four or that our squad was unbalanced, but the above was just a tirade for the sake of it.
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WeePat said:
I don't think his overall point about Chelsea was particularly wrong. I was saying something along the same lines about buying too many players. The bit people had a problem with was where he said 'there's nothing there, it's not a young and exciting team'. That's the bit that has been clipped up and doing the rounds on social media now.

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Cheers. I guess he was doing his job at trying to create some buzz but he already looks a bit foolish, and will look like a total idiot if Chelsea go on to have a decent season.

I was asking as I had heard him over the summer in some podcasts mentioning the "stop buying players", which is entirely reasonable, but didn't know he'd gone full in. Seems like a bit of an own goal, which he's a specialist at, so no big surprise I guess.
 
giorno said:
It's the juxtaposition of "reminds me of Kaka" followed by "doesn't rely on pace", when Kaka's whole game was built on his absurd pace
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It really wasn’t. He’d certainly carry the ball 50 yards almost by accident. But he still had all of the technical ability in the world. If you took his pace down a notch he’d still have been world class.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
It really wasn’t. He’d certainly carry the ball 50 yards almost by accident. But he still had all of the technical ability in the world. If you took his pace down a notch he’d still have been world class.
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He really wouldn't have. We know this because he did lose a step - more quickness and acceeleration than pure pace actually - and he stopped being a world class player as a result

Kaka with the pace of, say, De Bruyne, plays for Aston Villa, not Milan and Real Madrid
 
WeePat said:
It's not just this, I'm seeing Palmer is the now the best player in the league shouts everywhere I look, without Carragher's caveats. Lots of people now using Palmer to shit on Foden, Bellingham and Saka, which I want no parts of.

I'm relieved more than anything that we've unearthed a potential superstar from all the millions spent.
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This shit is so silly.

Any club wanting to buy those four tomorrow, is going to spend £400-500m. No one club would buy all of them, even if they had the cash. They’re all different skill set world class players and are going to be impossible to shoehorn into a single team.

The England manager has such a great problem on his hands. If it’s Carsley, great. Every single one of those players needs to understand they’re not a guaranteed starter for England. Add Gordon. Perhaps a rehabilitated Rashford or an Indian summer Sterling, or a direct Ashley Barnes. Plus Watkins. Maybe Sancho. Lord knows about Grealish.

We have an insane generations of attackers. With the amount of games played, the England Manager now needs to look at our player minutes and squads, and communicate to the media “Bellingham and Palmer are not in this squad, Foden and Saka may miss the next round. They need rest. They are not being dropped”.

We should piss the qualifiers and having an England manager just front foot all of this would really help. None of those players are better than the other for a whole season, as it’s so damn long. Keep them fit. Give them time off. Don’t pitch any of them against each other.
 
giorno said:
He really wouldn't have. We know this because he did lose a step - more quickness and acceeleration than pure pace actually - and he stopped being a world class player as a result

Kaka with the pace of, say, De Bruyne, plays for Aston Villa, not Milan and Real Madrid
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Yeah we’re splitting hairs here. Kaka still had pace in his late career. As much as Palmer does right now. He went from unexpectedly rapid to ‘fast’. Everything aged at the same time though.

Not at all important, but Greenwood was the first player that reminded me of how Kaka dribbled. That odd-looking running/dribbling style that saw them run fast with the ball but push the ball from a full stride, rather than close to their body.

Regardless, my central point was: Palmer reminds me of Kaka. Out wide, and as an 8/10 hybrid.
 
Back on topic… that casual through ball that came down with snow on it, when they were 4-2 up was magic. Should have ended in a goal.
 
One of the players I really enjoy watching. Saka is another.
Has to make one wonder too what would have happened had he got more minutes at the Euros.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Back on topic… that casual through ball that came down with snow on it, when they were 4-2 up was magic. Should have ended in a goal.
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That and the no-look pass to play Madueke in was pure filth. I'm not sure which pundit said it - usually it's the other way around, but his pass made the Jackson run.

I saw him a couple times in a City shirt and was happy with the transfer but no where near the level I was for Caicedo and Lavia. I knew he had good technical qualities, and game intelligence but it just shows what can be discovered when opening a pathway.
 
duffer said:
I saw a vid on Youtube recently saying that he was "too dumb to feel pressure", which I thought was incredibly harsh.
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Has that Messi-like disconnect when you hear him speak. Who cares if their game intelligence is superb. The old adage - If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree...
 
duffer said:
I saw a vid on Youtube recently saying that he was "too dumb to feel pressure", which I thought was incredibly harsh.
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Very harsh alright.
Going out on a limb here, but that youtuber must have either a superiority complex or an inferiority complex.
My money's on the latter.
 
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