Club ownership | Senior management team talk

sglowrider said:
Problem is that we say the same thing every time we have a new manager -- replace the deadwoods. But the problem is that we have been doing so under the past two regimes. The squad's barely recognisable from 5 years ago. Clearly, we arent good at a nuanced approach of either squad building or manager selection.

Maybe its the case that we learn from Chelsea. Under Abramovich, they changed managers like every 18 months. Now under Boehley, they are rotating players like a revolving door. But both approaches seem to have given the club some level of consistency.

What is it that Chelsea are doing that we seem to fail badly?
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Chelsea are truly the exception though. I don't know how they pull it off but whenever they're really good you know their demise is only 6 months away and whenever people are really writing them off, you know they'll be back in a year or so. You can write a whole thesis about their successes and failings but I think City / Pool / Arsenal are the models to emulate and not Chelsea.

The deadwood clearing bit I somewhat disagree. We kept signing expensive flops on high wages through the last regime (Casemiro, Mount, Antony, Ronaldo etc.). I think we have really good wage discipline now and also signing players with hunger in the right age range. We're not looking for immediate fixes. I'd eat my hat if we signed a combination of old (say >28) + expensive transfer (>60m) + expensive wage (>250k p/w) deal anytime soon. I know people are dreaming about Osimhen but I don't think it'll happen for this reason.
 
golden_blunder said:
There’s going to be a lot of disappointed people in the summer, reading some of these posts. This is going to take more than a few windows to get right.

Whilst the level of debt remains high we are always going to be shuffling the deck chairs
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I agree about the debt but I think we'll do a decent amount in the summer. We spent 250M (net of say 150M) this season. I expect a similar window in the summer. We didn't really expect them to be able to move on guys like Greenwood and Sancho -- not only have we moved them on, we also made decent fees on them.

This year's outgoings are clear - Rashford, Casemiro, Eriksen at a minimum. Maybe Garnacho if we need to raise a bit more money. That opens up a pretty good amount of space in the wage bill to do a lot of transfers. All of these are likely going to midfield and attack.
 
Pretty convinced that neither Ratcliffe nor the Glazers have any intention to bring the club back to the top of the world football or own it long-term. Trim the fat, make the product more attractive (by balancing the books and including a brand new stadium) then sell it to either super wealthy inviduals (state backed) or some consortium. Jim does not seem to have enough cash to buy the whole club out, and Qataris were ready to spend more on the Club than Ineos. I will be extremely surprised if in 5-6 years from now either Ratcliffe or the Glazers have any major stake in United.
 
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golden_blunder said:
There’s going to be a lot of disappointed people in the summer, reading some of these posts. This is going to take more than a few windows to get right.

Whilst the level of debt remains high we are always going to be shuffling the deck chairs
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Indeed. Without the huge cash flows of the past, United are going to struggle to sustain the debt. On that note, the Glazers recouped £1b at the right time and also put the burden on INEOS.

With that said, given how wealthy Ratcliffe is, you'd think that he wouldn't go immediately towards profiting off of transfers to solve the cash flow issues. This can lead United towards longer-term mediocrity unless they get multiple transfers right, and that won't be easy for a club of United's stature where the pressure is very high.
 
Teja said:
Chelsea are truly the exception though. I don't know how they pull it off but whenever they're really good you know their demise is only 6 months away and whenever people are really writing them off, you know they'll be back in a year or so. You can write a whole thesis about their successes and failings but I think City / Pool / Arsenal are the models to emulate and not Chelsea.

The deadwood clearing bit I somewhat disagree. We kept signing expensive flops on high wages through the last regime (Casemiro, Mount, Antony, Ronaldo etc.). I think we have really good wage discipline now and also signing players with hunger in the right age range. We're not looking for immediate fixes. I'd eat my hat if we signed a combination of old (say >28) + expensive transfer (>60m) + expensive wage (>250k p/w) deal anytime soon. I know people are dreaming about Osimhen but I don't think it'll happen for this reason.
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I think the key difference is Chelsea's willingness to happily throw cash at their problems. They did this under Abramovich, and they're doing this now under Boehly/Eghbadi. Since they have so many young players, they can still sell them on for a high-enough value for the most part. It helps that, on the PSR front, they have Strasbourg in BlueCo and good relations with Villa to help them out.
 
I think people need to calm down. Yes this season is mostly gone. We got some hope with the cups, but let’s be real, it’s not highly likely we go all the way.

At this point the serious changes will not happen before pre season and the summer transfer window. IMO it’s waste of energy to be mad about Ineos and Sir Jim, or even Amorim. I am going to see what happens in the summer and hopefully we will get some much needed players then.

In the meantime I think at least Amorim deserves a write off. Poor guy was very sceptical in the first place.
 
Teja said:
Chelsea are truly the exception though. I don't know how they pull it off but whenever they're really good you know their demise is only 6 months away and whenever people are really writing them off, you know they'll be back in a year or so. You can write a whole thesis about their successes and failings but I think City / Pool / Arsenal are the models to emulate and not Chelsea.

The deadwood clearing bit I somewhat disagree. We kept signing expensive flops on high wages through the last regime (Casemiro, Mount, Antony, Ronaldo etc.). I think we have really good wage discipline now and also signing players with hunger in the right age range. We're not looking for immediate fixes. I'd eat my hat if we signed a combination of old (say >28) + expensive transfer (>60m) + expensive wage (>250k p/w) deal anytime soon. I know people are dreaming about Osimhen but I don't think it'll happen for this reason.
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Just so you know, Osimhen and Gyokeres are about the same age and will likely go for a similar transfer fee, or possibly Gyokeres will be more expensive.
 
Teja said:
I agree about the debt but I think we'll do a decent amount in the summer. We spent 250M (net of say 150M) this season. I expect a similar window in the summer. We didn't really expect them to be able to move on guys like Greenwood and Sancho -- not only have we moved them on, we also made decent fees on them.

This year's outgoings are clear - Rashford, Casemiro, Eriksen at a minimum. Maybe Garnacho if we need to raise a bit more money. That opens up a pretty good amount of space in the wage bill to do a lot of transfers. All of these are likely going to midfield and attack.
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With the debt, it’s means we are always gonna have to sell to buy. Not as easy as Jim just opening his dusty wallet as some think.

Casemiro isn’t a clear outgoing; he’s still got a long contract and high salary. There may be a few tears in that story yet
 
Cassidy said:
Just so you know, Osimhen and Gyokeres are about the same age and will likely go for a similar transfer fee, or possibly Gyokeres will be more expensive.
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Agree with the point being made by @Teja that it's unlikely we will sign Osimhen due to high wage demands. I like the wage structure for Dorgu deal, remains to be seen how it works out for more high profile experienced signings.
 
croadyman said:
Agree with the point being made by @Teja that it's unlikely we will sign Osimhen due to high wage demands. I like the wage structure for Dorgu deal, remains to be seen how it works out for more high profile experienced signings.
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For one I don't think Osimhens wage demands are going to be THAT high, number 2 Gyokeres is likely going to demand top wages given his status
I'm not even saying we should sign Osimhen by the way, but you know Hojlund and Zirkzee are great buys because their wages are so low right?
 
croadyman said:
Yeah exactly why we needed a full sale, sickening those leeches priced out every interested party apart from the fake sheikh Jassim
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Exactly, Jim is a bad owner for Manchester United, the premise of what a full sale was supposed to rectify is still now a longer standing issue.

I'm not coming across as egotistical or having some astute knowledge but from intuition it's not going to work out short-medium-long term. There are more competitive owners in the league with managers who are as tactically adept and even more so than Amorim. If INEOS think they can slow walk their way to success, it's not going to work the economic environment of football will have United way behind. So all this talk about patience is unwarranted, the Glazers have put the club in a predicament where drastic measures will rectify most issues.

I'm half expecting West Ham to have a better squad in 12 months time compared to what the United hierarchy will put together.
 
Redstain said:
Exactly, Jim is a bad owner for Manchester United, the premise of what a full sale was supposed to rectify is still now a longer standing issue.

I'm not coming across as egotistical or having some astute knowledge but from intuition it's not going to work out short-medium-long term. There are more competitive owners in the league with managers who are as tactically adept and even more so than Amorim. If INEOS think they can slow walk their way to success, it's not going to work the economic environment of football will have United way behind. So all this talk about patience is unwarranted, the Glazers have put the club in a predicament where drastic measures will rectify most issues.

I'm half expecting West Ham to have a better squad in 12 months time compared to what the United hierarchy will put together.
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SJR is the only buyer now, no one is going to pay more for the club, especially now and that’s not changing anytime soon.

The club is even harder to sell now there is a different owner to the Glazers, especially one who has sporting control. Just have to hope that the parasites want out sooner rather than later.
 
Cassidy said:
For one I don't think Osimhens wage demands are going to be THAT high, number 2 Gyokeres is likely going to demand top wages given his status
I'm not even saying we should sign Osimhen by the way, but you know Hojlund and Zirkzee are great buys because their wages are so low right?
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Would love to sign either, if we can't get them then should be targeting a Delap/Mateta type
 
golden_blunder said:
Osimhen is currently getting paid nearly 200k a week by Gala. When Chelsea and United enquired about him previously he wanted 400k pw.

Gyokeres is paid 46k a week by Sporting
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United did not enquire and the 400k pw week rumour was dismantled by his agent.

Gyokeres will want top wages, given he is now seen as one of the best strikers in Europe; we're not buying a nobody from Coventry...

The main issue with getting him out of Napoli by the way was Napolis asking price, which is why Osimhen ultimately fell out with the club when the Chelsea deal fell through
 
Yakuza_devils said:
All the optimism when they took over football side of things and appointed "best in class" football people are truly gone. It seems they are no better than the 3 idiots Ed, Arnold and Murtough.
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If only they had other football club ownership experience to judge them on before they took over. :confused:
 
Cassidy said:
United did not enquire and the 400k pw week rumour was dismantled by his agent.

Gyokeres will want top wages, given he is now seen as one of the best strikers in Europe; we're not buying a nobody from Coventry...

The main issue with getting him out of Napoli by the way was Napolis asking price, which is why Osimhen ultimately fell out with the club when the Chelsea deal fell through
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Even if that rumour wasnt true (which allegedly was the reason he didn’t get a move to Chelsea) he’s still on nearly 4 times more than the other guy. So United could bump his salary up to 120k per week for example x3 his current) and it still would be 80k short of osimhens current wage.
Madness if you think that they will be in the same salary
 
UnitedSofa said:
Quite frankly. Yes!

They can't afford to do gamble on loan deals. Look at Tel deal, we pulled out because we have no money to waste on another gamble, if it were cheaper we may have done.

But the club has to make smart decisions.
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If the finances are so bad that we can’t do a loan deal then maybe the club shouldn’t have spent £50m on an 18 year old centre back. Don’t extend a contract you had no good reason to extend. There’s no credibility in what they are saying.
 
Cassidy said:
Just so you know, Osimhen and Gyokeres are about the same age and will likely go for a similar transfer fee, or possibly Gyokeres will be more expensive.
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Yeah I know but I think equally unlikely that the hierarchy would go for either unless Amorim really pushes for it. On the one hand you see donkeys like Chris Wood and Mateta scoring bucketloads and have to ask yourself do you really need a Gyokeres or an Osimhen to fix the attack. On the other hand, Arsenal and City have gotten it done with Havertz, Jesus, Trossard etc. Liverpool the same with Gakpo / Diaz / Jota at various times. City went through Foden and De Bruyne as the two forwards in the season before Haaland came if memory serves.

I don't think a big money CF signing is an absolute must unless Amorim feels like either it's a Gyokeres type #9 or bust for his system to work. Latest from Melissa Reddy does point to a big money CF signing so let's see

https://www.skysports.com/football/...er-avoiding-marcus-rashford-induced-panic-buy

I hope it's a big money #10 player and not a big money CF.
 
Off topic from how bad Ineos have been so far isn’t there a clause that after 18 months Ratcliffe has an option to buy the Glazer’s out or if the Glazer's can find a buyer then Ratcliffe has to sell his share if he can’t match the other buyers bid ? Wouldn’t that be this coming summer if so as Ineos came in January last year didn’t they ?

I mean who even in their wrong mind would want to buy this shambles but let’s just say Qatar or even Kuwait seeing as they’re not involved in football came in with a bid this summer then what happens ? What happens with the stadium plans ? What happens with the training ground plans ?
 
UzbekRed said:
Pretty convinced that neither Ratcliffe nor the Glazers have any intention to bring the club back to the top of the world football or own it long-term. Trim the fat, make the product more attractive (by balancing the books and including a brand new stadium) then sell it to either super wealthy inviduals (state backed) or some consortium. Jim does not seem to have enough cash to buy the whole club out, and Qataris were ready to spend more on the Club than Ineos. I will be extremely surprised if in 5-6 years from now either Ratcliffe or the Glazers have any major stake in United.
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That in itself is going to take quite a few years.

The Glazers are useless but I seriously doubt SJR invested so much money in hope he'd make a quick sale for profit. I'm pretty sure he has better, safer, ways to make a quick buck.
 
Acquire Me said:
I think people need to calm down. Yes this season is mostly gone. We got some hope with the cups, but let’s be real, it’s not highly likely we go all the way.

At this point the serious changes will not happen before pre season and the summer transfer window. IMO it’s waste of energy to be mad about Ineos and Sir Jim, or even Amorim. I am going to see what happens in the summer and hopefully we will get some much needed players then.

In the meantime I think at least Amorim deserves a write off. Poor guy was very sceptical in the first place.
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Being calm has only enabled the Glazer leeches to fatten their bellies while the quality of footballing performances has gotten progressively worse, season after season. It is true that what club supporters like us matters nothing to the Glazers or to Sir Jim so you have a point about being resigned to the reality that we are where we are, but at some point we have to stand up against this shithouse of club ownership.
 
VP89 said:
This is completely made up. The Athletic podcast suggested a difference in opinion from Ashworth and the rest of the decision makers - that includes Berrada and Wilcox. And I'd argue that the Ashworth suggestions were not remotely inspiring based on credible leaks.

Moreover Ten Hag renewed two months before Berradas first day. You seem to have got your time lines wrowrong
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I would treat the leaks around ashworths shortlist for managers with suspicion given they happened after he was sacked. It all seemed like ineos were covering their arse by briefing the press which is something that happened all the time under Ed woodward. I never thought he was worth the club solely focusing on in the first place but nor do I think he was dumb enough to prioritise southgate and the leaks also suggested howe was on the list which made no sense given their difficult relationship.

Wilcox also shouldn't have been a decision maker with ashworth in post
 
INEOS have failed at every level. With every decision they made the club worse. We currently have a terrible squad in a terrible league position with no money to spend.

This approach of trying to sign young players with potential might be suitable for a club like Brighton, but if you have the ambition to win titles, you need top players who can make a difference, who are better than those above you. The fact that we've spent badly in the past doesn't mean that the solution is not to spend.

This club, at this very moment in time, needs massive investment. We're in a lot of debt, and need a new stadium, all thanks to our horrible owners. Ineos add nothing here, they came to provide expertise that they didn't possess. Hence, the current failure. The fact that they allowed two attacking players to leave without lining up any replacement, tells you that they've written off the season. But how much money will it cost to miss out on europe completely? We had a shot at winning the EL and getting back to the CL. Now will our summer investment be better without European football? Will the players and fans still have faith in Amorim with so many losses?

I'm sorry but new generations of football fans don't have the loyalty or the attention span to keep supporting this club forever. This isn't like Liverpool spending 30 years without winning anything and still remaining relevant. At a certain point the money will stop coming and the value of the club will decrease.

INEOS were wrong for this club. We didn't need a sugar daddy either, but we needed someone willing to invest and wait for success. This isn't a crazy concept, greedy billionaires invest and wait for ROI long term all the time. If you want to convince yourself that Ratcliff knows what he's doing be my guest, every decision he made makes me think he has no fecking clue.
 
friendlytramp said:
It’s quite impressive how polarised the views are in this thread. To me personally it’s frustrating but necessary to get the club back on track in the medium term.

We could have tried to spend our way out of it like we have in the past, taking on more debt and further weakening our financial position, spiralling into a worse and worse position (that is how we got here) but Ineos have taken the bold and correct decision to put the brakes on that strategy, no more throwing good money after bad, reduce costs and get us back to a sustainable position and then grow from there.

It’s a short sharp shock to get us back on track and Amorim is the right man as part of that senior team to manage the squad through it.

We will be able to spend in the Summer and next season we could easily have an exciting young team capable of competing for top 4 and be in a position to be able to spend again to strengthen key positions the following windows without having to worry about a total rebuild or taking on debt.
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And pigs might fly.
 
friendlytramp said:
It’s quite impressive how polarised the views are in this thread. To me personally it’s frustrating but necessary to get the club back on track in the medium term.

We could have tried to spend our way out of it like we have in the past, taking on more debt and further weakening our financial position, spiralling into a worse and worse position (that is how we got here) but Ineos have taken the bold and correct decision to put the brakes on that strategy, no more throwing good money after bad, reduce costs and get us back to a sustainable position and then grow from there.

It’s a short sharp shock to get us back on track and Amorim is the right man as part of that senior team to manage the squad through it.

We will be able to spend in the Summer and next season we could easily have an exciting young team capable of competing for top 4 and be in a position to be able to spend again to strengthen key positions the following windows without having to worry about a total rebuild or taking on debt.
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I think you are spot on. We will probably continue with ups and downs for the remainder of this season. But it’s only four months time and then we got lots of work to be done. In the meantime I am going to enjoy every good match we get.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Hojlund, Zirkzee, Garnacho, Amad, Bruno, Eriksen, and apparently Mainoo too. We’ll be grand!
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Wow!

Lots of goals in those players, of course we'll be fine...not.

I just don't understand how can you be so supportive of Jimbo when he/Ineos have done nothing to help Amorim.
 
Matt851 said:
I would treat the leaks around ashworths shortlist for managers with suspicion given they happened after he was sacked. It all seemed like ineos were covering their arse by briefing the press which is something that happened all the time under Ed woodward. I never thought he was worth the club solely focusing on in the first place but nor do I think he was dumb enough to prioritise southgate and the leaks also suggested howe was on the list which made no sense given their difficult relationship.

Wilcox also shouldn't have been a decision maker with ashworth in post
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Leaks aside, I do not see how Ashworth or anyone in that role would add value (which is why we havent replaced him and likely wont).
His exit was in no small part because he was redundant in remit. We had someone for transfers, someone for a game model from academy, someone to help academy transition to senior football and a CEO.

What would Ashworth do in that case, outside of recruiting the next manager?
 
Josep Dowling said:
Both incredibly young. I doubt Leon is in the first team next season.
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He's physically impressive for his age, I think he has a physicality for the Premier League. Huge adaptation though between Paraguay and the Prem in terms of the spaces he can run into.

He will 100% get minutes in cup games though so I think he will be a squad player.

Id move it on Shaw and Malacia to make space.
 
So much crap being spoken in this thread. There’s no way Ratcliffe has come in to trim the fat and help the Glazers sell the club. I’m pretty sure he payed above value for his shares to begin with, but why get involved with something like this for what will be small returns? Why not just keep ETH and save money? Why hire and fire Ashworth? Because that tells me that they’re trying to find something that works. It cost money, it didn’t save money. So why would they do any of that if they’re not trying to simply find solutions that work?

The quality of some of the posts these days are rock bottom. The bed wetting is ridiculous. Be angry at their decisions to increase ticket prices, cut payments to support ex players, whatever. But let’s not pretend this is all some elaborate scheme to help sell the club for the Glazers. It just defies logic, especially when he’s invested over a billion quid that he’s unlikely to recoup unless things drastically change with the club and the team.
 
pocco said:
So much crap being spoken in this thread. There’s no way Ratcliffe has come in to trim the fat and help the Glazers sell the club. I’m pretty sure he payed above value for his shares to begin with, but why get involved with something like this for what will be small returns? Why not just keep ETH and save money? Why hire and fire Ashworth? Because that tells me that they’re trying to find something that works. It cost money, it didn’t save money. So why would they do any of that if they’re not trying to simply find solutions that work?

The quality of some of the posts these days are rock bottom. The bed wetting is ridiculous. Be angry at their decisions to increase ticket prices, cut payments to support ex players, whatever. But let’s not pretend this is all some elaborate scheme to help sell the club for the Glazers. It just defies logic, especially when he’s invested over a billion quid that he’s unlikely to recoup unless things drastically change with the club and the team.
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Agreed.
 
pocco said:
So much crap being spoken in this thread. There’s no way Ratcliffe has come in to trim the fat and help the Glazers sell the club. I’m pretty sure he payed above value for his shares to begin with, but why get involved with something like this for what will be small returns? Why not just keep ETH and save money? Why hire and fire Ashworth? Because that tells me that they’re trying to find something that works. It cost money, it didn’t save money. So why would they do any of that if they’re not trying to simply find solutions that work?

The quality of some of the posts these days are rock bottom. The bed wetting is ridiculous. Be angry at their decisions to increase ticket prices, cut payments to support ex players, whatever. But let’s not pretend this is all some elaborate scheme to help sell the club for the Glazers. It just defies logic, especially when he’s invested over a billion quid that he’s unlikely to recoup unless things drastically change with the club and the team.
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Don't forget Ratcliffe is a businessman who made his money basically through private equity petrochemicals. Basically the only way you make money is completely stripping costs out, as you are selling globally traded commodities. So I think he has probably some obsession/dogma around taking cost out as "normal" business practice as well as the whole Ineos marginal gains thing. And obviously it helps EBITDA if you come to sell the club.

I also wouldn't assume Ratcliffe is really going into this with a real fear he's going to lose money on the investment. He knows it's a strategic asset and would get bailed out by a Gulf investor or sovereign wealth fund who would buy out him and the Glazers if it came to that. And the money he's putting into the club directly is equity, so he can recoup it on sale.

So I wouldn't really assume he's being benevolent. I'm sure he wants us to improve as a club but I highly doubt he's willing to piss away his investment to do it.
 
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