Club Ownership | INEOS responsible for the football side

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Telsim said:
But isn't Antony's deal a bigger issue because it's under the new PSR rules, unlike those other previous deals? It still hasn't been three years.
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United is making annual revenues of over 600 million and is one of the top 3 valued clubs in the world.

This PSR target should be very very easy for United to make in comparison to everybody else. While the Anthony fee is a factor, the way we have generally managed the squad in’s/outs are a bigger problem. One bad signing really shouldn’t be a problem. Like I said, Sancho is one of those bad signings and the values of most our signings nearly always drop as soon as they join us.

Our annual salaries are alongside City and Bayern , we all know we don’t get the same value for it. So I think over focusing on Anthony is an easy headline that over simplifys uniteds consistently poor dealings. Easier to focus on one target player then a more broad issue.
 
At some point we have to ask ourselves, whether playing hardball over transfer fees actually is helping us. Dont think blindly rejecting to pay high fees/rejecting lowball offers, is going to improve our reputation much. We need leverage, good negotiation.
 
Their public statements clearly state they want to return United to the summit for English football and be regularly in the latter stages of the CL

Great news and I completely appreciate that it'll take a good 2 years at least before we even see the first signs of us becoming that good again. But I'd hoped the targets would reflect the direction we want to go

Yoro absolutely does. Zirkzee I have to reserve judgement as I've never seen him play a full match. I'm a bit worried about links to the likes of Berge, Mazaroui and Amrabat. I can't see how they help us take the first steps to a title challenging team.

Maybe someone can explain what they think the plan is?
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Their public statements clearly state they want to return United to the summit for English football and be regularly in the latter stages of the CL

Great news and I completely appreciate that it'll take a good 2 years at least before we even see the first signs of us becoming that good again. But I'd hoped the targets would reflect the direction we want to go

Yoro absolutely does. Zirkzee I have to reserve judgement as I've never seen him play a full match. I'm a bit worried about links to the likes of Berge, Mazaroui and Amrabat. I can't see how they help us take the first steps to a title challenging team.

Maybe someone can explain what they think the plan is?
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At a total guess I’d say there’s multiple things at play. In an ideal world you can move on players easier and make a decent few quid which we know United is not good at doing, partially cause we have been awful at sales and partially cause it seems this year in particular there’s not an awful lot of transfer business getting done. I was looking at the list of EPL teams signings this summer and it looks like there’s not alot happening.

It’s difficult to have Casemiro on the books and then sign a 50mil Midfield replacement. Same with even having Sancho/Anthony costing players draining our capacity for other alternatives. I mean that’s the guts of 40 million per year in wages , that if freed up, could allow us really push things out.

So let’s say these negotiation tactics aren’t simply just playing hardball and are important to the longer term stability of things, then you get to a point where you wonder if having no alternative is better then having somebody. I mean , I’d probably prefer a weghorst up front than a Sancho or moving Rashford there. At least having an actual striker in the position means you don’t have to shoe horn in players from other positions.

So maybe they are lowering the bar to try and get in cheaper alternatives, on cheaper wages, who can do a decent job and will hopefully be easier to offload when we are in a position to push up levels.
 
The Red Thinker said:
if you’re looking at the redundancies as a reason for cash flow trouble then you’re off the mark.

There’s a great article in the Times or the Athletic about what INEOS whenever they takeover companies. They always make cuts and streamline operations. Sure doing that is in itself a mark of losses but it’s more to do with optimisation and ensuring that things are done the “INEOS Way”. Lean and mean is their primary mantra as a company. Had we been making bumper profits too, he’d have done the same.
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I'm not.

They aren't going to continue having us running at a loss, so that that means getting costs under control which includes player wages and transfer balance.

We could spend way more under PSR rules than we actually will this summer. It's not what is holding us back.
 
oreon said:
No its fair. They decided to take this on. Now people should wait till the transfer deadline is closed. But if this is all we do, then its a failure and its setting up the team to fail. And it would prove some concerns that some fans that INEOS don't have the money to fund the overhaul the club needs. UTD are not in a great place financially. Owe a billions in debt, need a billion in funding for new stadium and millions to overhaul the roster to get to world class level. If INEOS don't have the means to financially do it, they shouldnt have bought the club.
But to be fair to them, lets see in a few weeks what they else they do in the window. Because right now its seems they need to sell players to bring new ones in but there are no takers for UTD's deadwood
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You surprise me in saying that, as all with any business know how or common sense should know it’s going to take a while and expecting results right away from guys who are not long in the door and have to clean up 20 years of mess is going to take some time. Sure Jim and Dan have all said it, “wont be done overnight”. No business, sport or otherwise can be turned over in such a short space of time.

Im very happy with what they have done so far, yes we all want to see results right away but it simply doesn’t work like that. We have been crying out for a proper structure above the manager, they have done that. My gut feeling is that these guys are not sitting on their arses now that is completed, they are working around the clock. They are looking for players but not having their pants pulled down over the price, basically saying the negotiations of old will no longer stand with us. Look all I’m saying is they haven’t failed, they won’t fail and we as fans need to have some patience. We have cried out for this change for years, now that it’s here, let’s do it right
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
At a total guess I’d say there’s multiple things at play. In an ideal world you can move on players easier and make a decent few quid which we know United is not good at doing, partially cause we have been awful at sales and partially cause it seems this year in particular there’s not an awful lot of transfer business getting done. I was looking at the list of EPL teams signings this summer and it looks like there’s not alot happening.

It’s difficult to have Casemiro on the books and then sign a 50mil Midfield replacement. Same with even having Sancho/Anthony costing players draining our capacity for other alternatives. I mean that’s the guts of 40 million per year in wages , that if freed up, could allow us really push things out.

So let’s say these negotiation tactics aren’t simply just playing hardball and are important to the longer term stability of things, then you get to a point where you wonder if having no alternative is better then having somebody. I mean , I’d probably prefer a weghorst up front than a Sancho or moving Rashford there. At least having an actual striker in the position means you don’t have to shoe horn in players from other positions.

So maybe they are lowering the bar to try and get in cheaper alternatives, on cheaper wages, who can do a decent job and will hopefully be easier to offload when we are in a position to push up levels.
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That's all well reasoned. Thank you.
 
Leftback99 said:
I'm not.

They aren't going to continue having us running at a loss, so that that means getting costs under control which includes player wages and transfer balance.

We could spend way more under PSR rules than we actually will this summer. It's not what is holding us back.
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Seems like new PSR rules are coming into play from the 25-26 season. Those would allow teams to spend 85% of the revenue earned on wages, transfer fees and agent fees. I don't know what is wage to revenue %age these days but back in the day we used to keep it around 50% of the revenue. If it's still at the same levels then that would leave a lot of room for us to spend if need be as our revenues should be easily above gbp 700m.

As for the current PSR, it seems like teams are allowed to run losses of GBP 45m in a three year period. Plus, another GBP 90m can be supplemented by the owner. So, in total you can make losses of GBP 135m.

Do you know how much combined loses have we made in the last two financial years?

Also, you are allowed to deduct money spent on infrastructure and player development from the losses you make.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Their public statements clearly state they want to return United to the summit for English football and be regularly in the latter stages of the CL

Great news and I completely appreciate that it'll take a good 2 years at least before we even see the first signs of us becoming that good again. But I'd hoped the targets would reflect the direction we want to go

Yoro absolutely does. Zirkzee I have to reserve judgement as I've never seen him play a full match. I'm a bit worried about links to the likes of Berge, Mazaroui and Amrabat. I can't see how they help us take the first steps to a title challenging team.

Maybe someone can explain what they think the plan is?
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Getting a balanced squad, reducing the wage bill and bringing down the average age would be my initial take. There does seem to be a plan but it requires patience on all sides.

Barring Mazaroui (who I think is actually quite a good player and makes sense as he can play on both flanks), the players you've mentioned are the back up signings for positions which we can't sign our top targets for.

It's a lot more difficult when the structure is brand new, the club is broke, the wages of dross are high and we're refusing to be mugged off after over a decade of negligence and incompetence.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
After a bright start things are looking eerily similar to how they used to be. All the duds are being given another shot and the midfield is a broken. Hope we can get some good business done over the next 3 weeks but the targets being discussed don't speak of any great vision or ambition. I suppose we need to give the new people multiple windows.
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The club can't just miraculously find buyers for players. If no clubs are interested, then what do you suggest the club does with the duds?
 
Just saw a video and the biggest flip flop in history: Mark Goldbridge!
Praises Ineos one min, craps on them the next. It’s no secret he was always a Qatar fanboy…I think INEOS are doing a decent job at the moment and anyone with any sense knows this will take time. Harry Potter magic doesn’t work like that in the real world I’m afraid
 
dubplate warrior said:
Mctominay, AWB, Lindelof, Hannibal are all players we should be moving on.
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Ah yeah I agree, although I am not sure if ETH wants McTominay gone. Agree on Lindelof and AWB, Hannibal to me is just not really wanted by anyone that he would like to join, he will most likely drop from 1st tier football.
 
Its all gone Shane Long said:
Just saw a video and the biggest flip flop in history: Mark Goldbridge!
Praises Ineos one min, craps on them the next. It’s no secret he was always a Qatar fanboy…I think INEOS are doing a decent job at the moment and anyone with any sense knows this will take time. Harry Potter magic doesn’t work like that in the real world I’m afraid
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Its been an incredibly underwhelming transfer window up to now though, we showed a lot of promise early on with the 2 signings but unless something happens Ineos have absolutely left us in the mire. Our squad is currently worse than it was last season and we have a number of players we have tried and failed to offload.

Not saying Ineos have done a bad job but would also struggle to say they've done a decent job as you put it. Maybe im one of the ones who doesnt have any sense, i firmly believe we should have done more in this tansfer window than we have done and unless something changes in the next few weeks, its been a complete let down and one the manager will likely pay the price for.
 
Wouldn't judge a window until it's shut particularly one that involves a major tournament. Have a feeling Bayern will confirm the deal next week then maybe we have one or two coming in on top.

Fair enough if nothing else happens instead but it will. I think I prefer a targeted approach rather than the old scattergun one. As long as they are in before the deadline we've got a long enough season not to worry about the first week or two if they are the right additions.
 
How is the squad worse than last season?

Outs:
- Greenwood (wasnt involved in the squad last season)
- Varane (the only loss to our first team squad)
- Donny van de Beek (not involved)
- Willy Kambwala (barely involved, emergency CB)
- Anthony Martial (scored 2 goals in 650mins)

Ins:
- Leny Yoro (replacement for Varane annoyingly injured)
- Joshua Zirkzee (replacement for Martial, surely he'll do better than him)

Obviously everyones aged by a year but I don't think it's worse, we've brought in two young players with potential, Yoro in particular will be excellent. As of now we've improved a little bit i'd say but not anywhere near enough, if we don't bring in any more signings (highly doubt that) then we'll need to hope the Academy strikes gold again.
 
Its not looking good for the coming season is it so far, 3 days from the start of the season most of our best XI havent played a minute of pre-season football, our squad is in a worst state than last season, and our only signings are a backup forward who'll neex a year or so to get used to the league and CB who is out for 3 months meanwhile the club despite spending only 25m so far the club is still unable to sell the deadwood because they are overpricing them and our only bids for more players are low ball offers with zero chance of being accepted.
 
Its all gone Shane Long said:
You surprise me in saying that, as all with any business know how or common sense should know it’s going to take a while and expecting results right away from guys who are not long in the door and have to clean up 20 years of mess is going to take some time. Sure Jim and Dan have all said it, “wont be done overnight”. No business, sport or otherwise can be turned over in such a short space of time.

Im very happy with what they have done so far, yes we all want to see results right away but it simply doesn’t work like that. We have been crying out for a proper structure above the manager, they have done that. My gut feeling is that these guys are not sitting on their arses now that is completed, they are working around the clock. They are looking for players but not having their pants pulled down over the price, basically saying the negotiations of old will no longer stand with us. Look all I’m saying is they haven’t failed, they won’t fail and we as fans need to have some patience. We have cried out for this change for years, now that it’s here, let’s do it right
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We all know its gonna take a while. But this overhaul will cost money, a lot of it. A billion in debt, a billion needed for new stadium and hundreds of milllions needed to get to world class level. So far INEOS have been nickel and diming as soon as they got here. Its not just cutting staff. Its not cancelling end of year function, not paying for staff/players tickets. Basic costs that all big clubs incur.
So it is fair for fans who were not convinced by INEOS to take over to ask if they have the money to bring UTD back to the top.
I dont see UTD winning league or UCL in next 3 years. But we need more transparency and info from INEOS on what the plan is specifically
1. Are they planning to take full ownership
2. What is the plan to pay the debt..
3. What is their transfer stratergy
4. How do they plan to fund the stadium

For the stadium, I dont expect an answer this season. It might take a while for plans to come to fruition. But the rest we need answers. Because when I see them highly concerned about cutting costs, unable to really spend in transfer window it brings into question whether they have the money. Especially since there was another bidder who was going to pay the loan off and fund the stadium with their own money. So just because there are not Glazers shouldnt mean fans shouldnt be skeptical of them. They need to win fans over. And where we are financially isn't great, we deserve to know how they plan to get UTD out of this mess
 
oreon said:
We all know its gonna take a while. But this overhaul will cost money, a lot of it. A billion in debt, a billion needed for new stadium and hundreds of milllions needed to get to world class level. So far INEOS have been nickel and diming as soon as they got here. Its not just cutting staff. Its not cancelling end of year function, not paying for staff/players tickets. Basic costs that all big clubs incur.
So it is fair for fans who were not convinced by INEOS to take over to ask if they have the money to bring UTD back to the top.
I dont see UTD winning league or UCL in next 3 years. But we need more transparency and info from INEOS on what the plan is specifically
1. Are they planning to take full ownership
2. What is the plan to pay the debt..
3. What is their transfer stratergy
4. How do they plan to fund the stadium

For the stadium, I dont expect an answer this season. It might take a while for plans to come to fruition. But the rest we need answers. Because when I see them highly concerned about cutting costs, unable to really spend in transfer window it brings into question whether they have the money. Especially since there was another bidder who was going to pay the loan off and fund the stadium with their own money. So just because there are not Glazers shouldnt mean fans shouldnt be skeptical of them. They need to win fans over. And where we are financially isn't great, we deserve to know how they plan to get UTD out of this mess
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Well said. Completely agreed.
 
RedSky said:
How is the squad worse than last season?

Outs:
- Greenwood (wasnt involved in the squad last season)
- Varane (the only loss to our first team squad)
- Donny van de Beek (not involved)
- Willy Kambwala (barely involved, emergency CB)
- Anthony Martial (scored 2 goals in 650mins)

Ins:
- Leny Yoro (replacement for Varane annoyingly injured)
- Joshua Zirkzee (replacement for Martial, surely he'll do better than him)

Obviously everyones aged by a year but I don't think it's worse, we've brought in two young players with potential, Yoro in particular will be excellent. As of now we've improved a little bit i'd say but not anywhere near enough, if we don't bring in any more signings (highly doubt that) then we'll need to hope the Academy strikes gold again.
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I wouldn't say it's necessarily worse than last season, as the only real loss on the outs is Varane. However there are issues with the players that remain, and the lack of additions.

Cas is the biggest one for me. He was diabolical for all of last season. If you don't think that that's due to ETH's tactics and is due to Cas just not being up to it anymore, then he is one year older and likely a bit worse than he was last season.

In the defense, we are relying heavily on players not being injured. We know Shaw is going to have an injury this season and miss a run of games. Lisandro is hopefully over his injuries, but you never know. With Yoro unfortunately needing a couple months to recover, we are at the point of needing Maguire to start and very close to Maguire/Lindelof being our starting pair again. And when we do lose Shaw, with Malacia still not back we have to shift Dalot to the left which then weakens the team as a whole because we will then miss what be brings on the right.

Of course we could sign a DM, CB and RB or LB in the next couple weeks and then all of this looks much less concerning, but that is how things look if there are no further additions.
 
Not really happy so far, new season is nearly upon us and we’ve got exact same line up as last year, if we do sign players they’ll need time to adapt so probably won’t feature straight away.

Hopefully they can make some moves quickly or it’s going to be another long season.
 
dannyrhinos89 said:
Not really happy so far, new season is nearly upon us and we’ve got exact same line up as last year, if we do sign players they’ll need time to adapt so probably won’t feature straight away.

Hopefully they can make some moves quickly or it’s going to be another long season.
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Main problem last year was injuries. If we can get them under control we should do much better than last season even with no changes.
 
oreon said:
We all know it’s gonna take a while. But this overhaul will cost money, a lot of it. A billion in debt, a billion needed for new stadium and hundreds of milllions needed to get to world class level. So far INEOS have been nickel and diming as soon as they got here. It’s not just cutting staff. It’s not cancelling end of year function, not paying for staff/players tickets. Basic costs that all big clubs incur.
So it is fair for fans who were not convinced by INEOS to take over to ask if they have the money to bring UTD back to the top.
I dont see UTD winning league or UCL in next 3 years. But we need more transparency and info from INEOS on what the plan is specifically
1. Are they planning to take full ownership
2. What is the plan to pay the debt..
3. What is their transfer stratergy
4. How do they plan to fund the stadium

For the stadium, I dont expect an answer this season. It might take a while for plans to come to fruition. But the rest we need answers. Because when I see them highly concerned about cutting costs, unable to really spend in transfer window it brings into question whether they have the money. Especially since there was another bidder who was going to pay the loan off and fund the stadium with their own money. So just because there are not Glazers shouldnt mean fans shouldnt be skeptical of them. They need to win fans over. And where we are financially isn't great, we deserve to know how they plan to get UTD out of this mess
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It’s very early for asking questions such as
Are they planning to take full ownership and What is the plan to pay the debt. They are in the door now yes, getting up to speed but you got to remember, they are in charge of the football side and the Glazers still control the vaults. They have raided the vaults for a long time to the point that all that’s left inside is a big F*** you note.
Jim would never have taken on this responsibility without knowing what was going on from within. He knows there is no money, he knows there are players that will be hard to shift cause they’re on big salaries.
He and his lieutenants now need to navigate choppy waters with our finances and PSR etc.
if that means cutting back bloated executive pay and trimming jobs split by theee people that could be done by one then so be it. Short term pain for long term success. He’s a billionaire after all. Didn’t get there by luck.
I agree with you that transparency with the fans is a must but I’d say he’s under some sort of NDA to go full disclosure and that’s down the the contract he has with the glazers. Tribs and trabs will come out but you don’t want to share your entire secrets to the whole world.

This is all to say is from my opinion he’s done a decent job so far, but lots and lots of hard work to be done and yes we can be critical, it’s healthy to be critical but we also have to be realistic based on the facts we have currently.
Trust me I know you’re annoyed with players that shouldn’t be there, what’s the long term plan etc. I want answers as well. But I’m reserving judgement a little while longer. I respect your opinion though.
 
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oreon said:
We all know its gonna take a while. But this overhaul will cost money, a lot of it. A billion in debt, a billion needed for new stadium and hundreds of milllions needed to get to world class level. So far INEOS have been nickel and diming as soon as they got here. Its not just cutting staff. Its not cancelling end of year function, not paying for staff/players tickets. Basic costs that all big clubs incur.
So it is fair for fans who were not convinced by INEOS to take over to ask if they have the money to bring UTD back to the top.
I dont see UTD winning league or UCL in next 3 years. But we need more transparency and info from INEOS on what the plan is specifically
1. Are they planning to take full ownership
2. What is the plan to pay the debt..
3. What is their transfer stratergy
4. How do they plan to fund the stadium

For the stadium, I dont expect an answer this season. It might take a while for plans to come to fruition. But the rest we need answers. Because when I see them highly concerned about cutting costs, unable to really spend in transfer window it brings into question whether they have the money. Especially since there was another bidder who was going to pay the loan off and fund the stadium with their own money. So just because there are not Glazers shouldnt mean fans shouldnt be skeptical of them. They need to win fans over. And where we are financially isn't great, we deserve to know how they plan to get UTD out of this mess
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Agreed many have spoken as if INEOS are the guarantee of success, they have just as much to prove as a new signing for the club.

The window isn't closed so there's time to turn things around, but the money concerning debt and infrastructure is a concern.
 
As bad a financial position as we're in, it would have been even worse if we hadn't qualified for Europa and paid off Ten Hag.
 
Don't think I've gone into a previous season with lower expectations than this one.
 
Leftback99 said:
Repeating myself again but it's not PSR that's holding us back this summer, it's actual money.

The club is making losses and announcing redundancies. Add the two together it doesn't = big transfer net spend.
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The redundancies aren’t because the club is going broke. It’s a streamlining exercise on a workforce that has become bloated and ineffective. We could be making billions in profit and I rid would still be making people redundant and slimming down the workforce. It is their tried and tested MO when they go into a business. United is no different
 
Highfather_24 said:
At some point we have to ask ourselves, whether playing hardball over transfer fees actually is helping us. Dont think blindly rejecting to pay high fees/rejecting lowball offers, is going to improve our reputation much. We need leverage, good negotiation.
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Wow, half a window and we’re already back to ‘pay them the money!’ and giving away players for a pittance.
Elsewhere we are turning our noses up at players because they aren’t galacticos, after craving exactly that. The fan base is just as broken as the club.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Wow, half a window and we’re already back to ‘pay them the money!’ and giving away players for a pittance.
Elsewhere we are turning our noses up at players because they aren’t galacticos, after craving exactly that. The fan base is just as broken as the club.
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half a window? we're playing PL football in a week and have a worse squad than last season with noise coming from every angle we're not likely to buy anybody.. this is shaping up into a major fiasco of a summer.
 
Plant0x84 said:
The redundancies aren’t because the club is going broke. It’s a streamlining exercise on a workforce that has become bloated and ineffective. We could be making billions in profit and I rid would still be making people redundant and slimming down the workforce. It is their tried and tested MO when they go into a business. United is no different
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Are they trying to cut costs or not?
 
Highfather_24 said:
At some point we have to ask ourselves, whether playing hardball over transfer fees actually is helping us. Dont think blindly rejecting to pay high fees/rejecting lowball offers, is going to improve our reputation much. We need leverage, good negotiation.
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Could easily be a net negative this window, but over the next 10 it will 100% be a net positive. Long term, big picture.
 
I really do think people need to have some patience, there’s a few things clearly at play here:

1. We are no longer a club that “just pays up” and that comes with sacrifices. We all want to be that club now so we have to accept the sacrifices.

2. We are negotiating with clubs that want to sell and the players only want to come to us so feck them if they think they are going to get us to over pay for a quick buy. INEOS aren’t going to piss millions away for the sake of waiting for a week or two if they feel that will bring the price down.

3. PSR/FFP - not just us but other clubs. In a lot of cases it’s like buying a house, there is a chain of transfers that need to happen and nobody is willing to take the risk of signing a player and failing to sell leaving them exposed to fines if they fall foul of financial regulations.


Just wait until the window closes before judging.
 
Pexbo said:
I really do think people need to have some patience, there’s a few things clearly at play here:

1. We are no longer a club that “just pays up” and that comes with sacrifices. We all want to be that club now so we have to accept the sacrifices.

2. We are negotiating with clubs that want to sell and the players only want to come to us so feck them if they think they are going to get us to over pay for a quick buy. INEOS aren’t going to piss millions away for the sake of waiting for a week or two if they feel that will bring the price down.

3. PSR/FFP - not just us but other clubs. In a lot of cases it’s like buying a house, there is a chain of transfers that need to happen and nobody is willing to take the risk of signing a player and failing to sell leaving them exposed to fines if they fall foul of financial regulations.


Just wait until the window closes before judging.
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No hope for a panic buy then?
 
Borys said:
No hope for a panic buy then?
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I think more we find out if Bayern are bluffing on not lowering their asking prices. If it comes last minute but we save some money people will probably call it a panic buy to get some clicks but it will be good negotiations.

I get the impression something with happen with Ugarte/Fofana as well. Seems to be a fair amount of noise about Sancho and PSG so you’d hope we can swap him (maybe with a small fee being realistic with how low his stock has sunk).
 
I’d just accept next season is going to be far from perfect, sell whatever deadwood we can, try and get in one or two of our targets -and look for one or two loans

One of the problems in the last 10 years is the refusal to take a hit for a season to fix things, which in turn ends up with the season falling apart halfway through anyway, except your loaded with panic buys for 5 years.
 
I said a while ago to start mentally preparing yourselves for this year. It is going to be an absolute shit show

Not that I blame INEOS tbf, they have inherited an absolute rancid state of affairs from Woodward, Murtough and Arnold. Years of mismanagement is finally starting to rise to the surface. It is fixable, but it is going to need at least 4 windows AFTER this one before they've even really got their feet properly under the table.
 
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