Club Ownership | INEOS responsible for the football side

[devilish]

It's a combination of sources close to INEOS, agents, players and managers. They are tier one because they do a good job of corroborating their sources.

I am an active member of the oldest Manutd Supporters in the world, a club who hails fantastic links with the mother base. This summer alone I met Stam, Johnsen, Evra Macari and Buchan + Andy Mitten. I also have a friend who was pretty close with the late Mino Raiola. The guy was an open book about how transfers work

From what I can gather this is what I learnt

a- only very few people at United know who United targets are and far less have a say on transfers.
b- a player transfer is a hugely complex thing. First of all we're talking of a 40m-60m operation, secondly it involves feedback from a horde of people (most are on a need to know basis), then there are negotiations with the club, the agents and of course the player. Everything can change in an instant. Back when life was simpler. SAF (not Mitten, Romano or the flavor of the month) told us that Gazza was done and dusted and will sign the week after. Turned out he was not.
c- leaks aren't leaks but BRIEFS. Even back in the day when we leaked like a sieve that was by design. United actively planted false stories because the marketing team was tracking the clicks generated during the silly season as proof as of how popular United were.
d- Briefs usually come from two parties ie either the agent or the club.
e- United had activated ETH's 1 year extension rather then properly renewed. That suggest that not everything is great in paradise. There had been persistent rumors (thus briefs) that INEOS aren't happy with ETH's VETO and that he refuse to let that particular bone go

Now let's take all that information into context.

a- most of the heavy lifting in terms of transfers was done early in the window. I am referring to personal terms for Jarrad, Ugarte, De Ligt and Mazraoui. Not only that, two out of those players refuse to deal with anyone else which suggest a high level of trust which can only come by advanced negotiations.

b- Most of our football people joined the club late. Berrada and Ashworth joined in July, Wilcox joined earlier but a technical director usually has little say on transfers.

c- As said briefs tend to come from two sides. The agent wouldn't know who wanted the player and quite frankly doesn't give a feck. All they care about is that the club is interested in their player and that personal terms had been agreed. Thus when you hear that De Ligt was wanted by INEOS then that information comes from inside the club ie people INEOS/ETH trust and who probably rely on them for a job. Do you really believe that its within their interest to make INEOS look bad? You know the answer

So I repeat what I said and TBF its what I expected to happen

a- Ashworth, Berrada and co came too late to have an influence on the transfer window. Thus this summer we probably stuck to the same structure we had last season. We might have involved the scouts more and we might ask Ashworth and Wilcox what they thought about the signings but ETH retained a huge say on what's going on including of course the VETO

b- Next year expect huge changes of United's modus operandi.

I was disappointed that B didn't happen this summer as I don't trust ETH's eye for transfers. Unfortunately I feel that we ran out of time.

 

[roseguy64]

Yeah right. The recruitment team turned up late we were not prepared for this summer clearly

No, they didn't. It's the same team as we had before. It's just got new people in charge now.

 

[Cassidy]

No, they didn't. It's the same team as we had before. It's just got new people in charge now.

So its not the same team

 

[Tom Van Persie]

So its not the same team

New CEO, new DoF, new technical director, new head of recruitment but the same team.

 

[VP89]

I am an active member of the oldest Manutd Supporters in the world, a club who hails fantastic links with the mother base. This summer alone I met Stam, Johnsen, Evra Macari and Buchan + Andy Mitten. I also have a friend who was pretty close with the late Mino Raiola. The guy was an open book about how transfers work

You sound a bit elitest. I've also met a fair few myself but it doesn't change the fact that you have literally nothing to claim De Ligt is a ten hag suggestion outside of the fact they used to work for each other.

Whereas I am resting my case on the Athletics own corroboration that it's an INEOS suggestion and ten hags subsequent confirmation.

 

[devilish]

You sound a bit elitest. I've also met a fair few myself but it doesn't change the fact that you have literally nothing to claim De Ligt is a ten hag suggestion outside of the fact they used to work for each other.

Whereas I am resting my case on the Athletics own corroboration that it's an INEOS suggestion and ten hags subsequent confirmation.

Oh nothing at all. I have anxiety, I am on the spectrum (I'm a Sheldon Cooper minus the genius) and things you find easy such as small talk or social cues are a real struggle for me. Regarding united I am lucky enough to live in a country with historical ties with the club. That lead to friendships and some of those people are some of my closest mates. If you don't believe me then just check the advert boards next time there's a game at OT. I know who made that deal happen, not because I am special but because Malta is the size of a large local council and everyone know everyone. I am just sharing what I learnt about how football works but of course I could be wrong.

 

[Red in STL]

Oh nothing at all. I have anxiety, I am on the spectrum (I'm a Sheldon Cooper minus the genius) and things you find easy such as small talk or social cues are a real struggle for me. Regarding united I am lucky enough to live in a country with historical ties with the club. That lead to friendships and some of those people are some of my closest mates. If you don't believe me then just check the advert boards next time there's a game at OT. I know who made that deal happen, not because I am special but because Malta is the size of a large local council and everyone know everyone. I am just sharing what I learnt about how football works but of course I could be wrong.

Are you Maltese?

My parents used to live in Malta and latter Gozo, if you have anxiety I hope you don't drive because in Malta that is one of the quickest ways to have a severe mental breakdown!

 

[devilish]

Are you Maltese?

My parents used to live in Malta and latter Gozo, if you have anxiety I hope you don't drive because in Malta that is one of the quickest ways to have a severe mental breakdown!

Oh I don't drive. I can't due to sensory overload

 

[Red in STL]

Oh I don't drive. I can't due to sensory overload

I tried it once, never again, driving in London, Manchester, Atlanta, Chicago was a doddle in comparison!

 

[devilish]

I tried it once, never again, driving in London, Manchester, Atlanta, Chicago was a doddle in comparison!

Yes it's terrible

 

[Red in STL]

Yes it's terrible

Fecking maniacs, driving in whatever side of the road that suits them, turning left across multiple lanes of traffic on roundabouts and most road signs seem to be a suggestion!!

I hope they've gotten rid of all those Boris buses, those were a nightmare to get past!

 

[LordSpud]

It's annoying because we really need to get Top 4 this season but I just can't see it. Let's face it the proper project cannot possibly start until we can start shifting these shite players on sky high wages. So for the next couple years we are just in Top 6-9 purgatory. After that it's like a 5 year project.

I actually think INEOS will get bored in the end.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I'm a bit annoyed at the lack of thrust we've seen on the sales side. Don't mind the targets and can appreciate us moving on when prices don't budge, but the lack of movement on the DM side is frustrating considering we sat there going back and forth over Ugarte (who was never a perfect fit anyways) for a month before just finally moving on this week.

Would like to see us move quickly for Fofana now at a minimum, and ideally sell someone to wrap up the Bayern double as well (not sure why we are so set on those two but it seems advanced enough at this point that we aren't going to move on so)

 

[Red in STL]

It's annoying because we really need to get Top 4 this season but I just can't see it. Let's face it the proper project cannot possibly start until we can start shifting these shite players on sky high wages. So for the next couple years we are just in Top 6-9 purgatory. After that it's like a 5 year project.

I actually think INEOS will get bored in the end.

More like SJR dies given his age, but some of the players we want to get rid of have contracts that expire at the end of the coming season, Maguire, Lindelof and Eriksen for starters

 

[Its all gone Shane Long]

I cannot believe people on X are having an go at INEOS. Are you serious? Done more in 6 months than those leeches across the pond have in 20 years who have wrecked our finances btw! it’s going to take more than one summer transfer window to fix this mess, hence why it’s hard to get the likes of McTom and Cass off the books. We really need to be patient and not expect major things from the team this season.

 

[Roboc7]

It's annoying because we really need to get Top 4 this season but I just can't see it. Let's face it the proper project cannot possibly start until we can start shifting these shite players on sky high wages. So for the next couple years we are just in Top 6-9 purgatory. After that it's like a 5 year project.

I actually think INEOS will get bored in the end.

This season is going to be a real struggle, the only consolation is you don’t have to be that good to finish 4th. I personally think 6th is more likely but even last season we weren’t miles off 4th despite being awful and beset by injuries.

It was always going to be a 3-5 year project, the club is a mess and even the changes that have been made will take varying amounts of time to see improvements.

The legacy of the terrible signings and ludicrous wages is where the real problems lie. Pretty much everyone we want rid of is almost unsellable and unfortunately a lot of players will only be replaced when their contracts expire and they leave for nothing.

 

[Coops73]

I haven’t got an issue with the way Ratcliffe et al have gone about things at the moment, yeah I’d like some more positive transfer activity but equally it feels as though they’re determined not to get rinsed and if the reports we’re hearing have any validity to them it sounds like that’s how they’re playing it.

It was never going to be easy to turn thing’s around after the shit show the Glazers have overseen but I’m seeing green shoots of a football club being run in a professional manner, at least that’s how I’m reading things from what we’re hearing in the press etc. and I think it’s going to be a couple of years before we can really make an opinion on them.

 

[Vidooq]

We can't even sell the players that are not on absurd wages. I dont blame INEOS for that.

Nobody wants them as everyone know that they are only good in one aspect of the football gams, and we are practically giving them away on the cheap. AWB for 15, Scott for 25, Lindelof for cheap.

 

[Cassidy]

We can't even sell the players that are not on absurd wages. I dont blame INEOS for that.

Nobody wants them as everyone know that they are only good in one aspect of the football gams, and we are practically giving them away on the cheap. AWB for 15, Scott for 25, Lindelof for cheap.

Quite obviously some teams have wanted them

 

[AshRK]

Quite obviously some teams have wanted them

Want them for less wages. No one is paying 120k for.lindelof or even 100k for awb. I am not even mentioning sancho casemiro maguire or antony who are on absurd wages. Even the Saudi clubs won't touch them for that much wages.

 

[Cassidy]

Want them for less wages. No one is paying 120k for.lindelof or even 100k for awb. I am not even mentioning sancho casemiro maguire or antony who are on absurd wages. Even the Saudi clubs won't touch them for that much wages.

Or less transfer fees which compensates

 

[roseguy64]

So its not the same team

New CEO, new DoF, new technical director, new head of recruitment but the same team.

The people below them are the same I mean so they'd have been doing the work. We're not starting from scratch. People were there holding things over.

 

[oreon]

I cannot believe people on X are having an go at INEOS. Are you serious? Done more in 6 months than those leeches across the pond have in 20 years who have wrecked our finances btw! it’s going to take more than one summer transfer window to fix this mess, hence why it’s hard to get the likes of McTom and Cass off the books. We really need to be patient and not expect major things from the team this season.

No its fair. They decided to take this on. Now people should wait till the transfer deadline is closed. But if this is all we do, then its a failure and its setting up the team to fail. And it would prove some concerns that some fans that INEOS don't have the money to fund the overhaul the club needs. UTD are not in a great place financially. Owe a billions in debt, need a billion in funding for new stadium and millions to overhaul the roster to get to world class level. If INEOS don't have the means to financially do it, they shouldnt have bought the club.
But to be fair to them, lets see in a few weeks what they else they do in the window. Because right now its seems they need to sell players to bring new ones in but there are no takers for UTD's deadwood

 

[Plant0x84]

And it would prove some concerns that some fans that INEOS don't have the money to fund the overhaul the club needs. UTD are not in a great place financially. Owe a billions in debt, need a billion in funding for new stadium and millions to overhaul the roster to get to world class level. If INEOS don't have the means to financially do it, they shouldnt have bought the club.

What a silly post.

Have you heard of PSR/FFP? It has naff all to do with how much money INEOS have or will be prepared to spend, but rather limits how much the club can spend in relation to income.
Even the super sheikh wouldn’t have been able to plow billions into the club in our current PSR position. Years of mismanagement are coming home to roost and INEOS has to deal with these restrictions whilst sorting out the mess.

 

[KM]

No its fair. They decided to take this on. Now people should wait till the transfer deadline is closed. But if this is all we do, then its a failure and its setting up the team to fail. And it would prove some concerns that some fans that INEOS don't have the money to fund the overhaul the club needs. UTD are not in a great place financially. Owe a billions in debt, need a billion in funding for new stadium and millions to overhaul the roster to get to world class level. If INEOS don't have the means to financially do it, they shouldnt have bought the club.
But to be fair to them, lets see in a few weeks what they else they do in the window. Because right now its seems they need to sell players to bring new ones in but there are no takers for UTD's deadwood

That's one of the stupidest post I've read on here.

 

[DarkLord1984]

I cannot believe people on X are having an go at INEOS. Are you serious? Done more in 6 months than those leeches across the pond have in 20 years who have wrecked our finances btw! it’s going to take more than one summer transfer window to fix this mess, hence why it’s hard to get the likes of McTom and Cass off the books. We really need to be patient and not expect major things from the team this season.

I wouldn't bother about the opinions of almost anyone on Twitter/X. It's not a place that's exactly known for sane, rational opinions.

 

[pocco]

This idea that signing Anthony was the turning point in our financial issues is misguided.Every club, even the best ones, make bad and expensive signings that don’t work out.

11 years of financial mismanagement and stupid contracts is the problem. We can’t offload unwanted players because Woodward gave out Stupid contracts and extensions.

Sancho wasn’t cheap and he’s not offered United much more then Anthony.

According to transfermarket, with United:

Sancho
Transfer : €85mil
Wages : 250k
Minutes played: 3670
Goals per minute EPL: 9 goals - 1 every 407 mins
Assists per minute EPL: 6 assists - 1 every 611 mins
Goal/assist: 1 every 244 mins

Anthony
Transfer : 95 mil
Wages : 200k
Minutes played: 3141
Goals per minute EPL: 5 goals - 1 every 628 mins
Assists per minute EPL: 3 assists - 1 every 1041 mins
Goal/assist: 1 every 392 mins

Couple of things:

- Sancho costs 50k per week (2.6mil) more per year so total cost will end up same
- Anthony offers far more defensively, if Sancho isn’t assisting/scoring he offers nothing

Maybe if we hadn’t signed Sancho , the Anthony one wouldn’t be the supposed disaster some are making out. There’s plenty of bad signings United have made over the years that have cost us and contributed to where we are, I’m specifically referring to your comments that appear to imply that the Anthony signing is integral to our current financial FFP concerns. It’s a tiny part of that problem.

We already had Sancho though. And we'd spent right up to our limit before we got Antony according to reports at the time, but had to stretch into the following seasons budgets and an additional credit facility to get Antony. Problem is that we still spent a considerable amount the following year anyway, and now we seemingly can't operate with much freedom in the market at all, with it seemingly being one in, one out. I just recall there being a lot made of the Antony signing and how we financed it.

 

[DarkLord1984]

No its fair. They decided to take this on. Now people should wait till the transfer deadline is closed. But if this is all we do, then its a failure and its setting up the team to fail. And it would prove some concerns that some fans that INEOS don't have the money to fund the overhaul the club needs. UTD are not in a great place financially. Owe a billions in debt, need a billion in funding for new stadium and millions to overhaul the roster to get to world class level. If INEOS don't have the means to financially do it, they shouldnt have bought the club.
But to be fair to them, lets see in a few weeks what they else they do in the window. Because right now its seems they need to sell players to bring new ones in but there are no takers for UTD's deadwood

Agreed with those saying this post is stupid. It is.

They've just purchased the club, this is their first summer window. Some of the new recruits haven't even been in the job a month yet.

 

[Borys]

We need to sell to buy. This was never going to be a one window job.

We're paying for the mistakes from years of mismanagement. Sancho and Casemiro or crazy wages, AWB demanding a pay off to leave. It's holding our window up, however sometimes you have to play the waiting game.

Casmiro, Antony and Sancho are on 2+ years contract still, right? I don't know if we should really expect them to be sold.

 

[Cassidy]

The people below them are the same I mean so they'd have been doing the work. We're not starting from scratch. People were there holding things over.

Indeed thats why we so desperately wanted to bring in Ashworth, Wilcox, Vivell etc before the window because it makes zero difference. Also some of the people below them have been let go.

The fact we are falling back to ETHs targets should tell you something

 

[Insanity]

We need to sell to buy?

Is selling Lindelof going to raise money to get de Ligt?

Or will selling McTom (who no one wants to pay more than 20m for) allow us to go for Ugarte or Zubimendi, who are touted at at least 2.5 to 3 times that amount.

Is the "we need to sell to buy" just about creating squad space? Because surely we not raising enough money by selling these players to pay for our targets.

 

[Pexbo]

We need to sell to buy?

Is selling Lindelof going to raise money to get de Ligt?

Or will selling McTom (who no one wants to pay more than 20m for) allow us to go for Ugarte or Zubimendi, who are touted at at least 2.5 to 3 times that amount.

Is the "we need to sell to buy" just about creating squad space? Because surely we not raising enough money by selling these players to pay for our targets.

It’s not about actual money in, it’s about money accounted for. So De Ligt at £45m over a 5 year contract would represent £9m per year on the books. So selling McTominay for £15m would cover us for FFP/PSR this year

EDIT - fag packet accounting but that’s the gist of it.

 

[Insanity]

It’s not about actual money in, it’s about money accounted for. So De Ligt at £45m over a 5 year contract would represent £9m per year on the books. So selling McTominay for £15m would cover us for FFP/PSR this year

EDIT - fag packet accounting but that’s the gist of it.

It simply can't be about that. If we assume what you are saying is true:

- Our sales have generated about ~34m so far.
- We have bought Yoro and Zirkzee for some 88m.
- If we amortize that over 5 years, that's 17.6m Let's simplify it to 18m for discussion.
- Now 34m -18m = 16m....we still have room for Amortization worth 16m.
- Spread over 5 years, and purely based on amortization, that leaves us room for players worth up to 80m in transfer fees.

So, it's not about amortization and it's not about cash flow (as I mentioned in the previous post we won't generate enough cash flow by selling those players). Then what is about? There has to more to it and I am too lazy to do a deep dive into the past few financial statements or go into the depth of FFP/PSR.

 

[Pexbo]

It simply can't be about that. If we assume what you are saying is true:

- Our sales have generated about ~34m so far.
- We have bought Yoro and Zirkzee for some 88m.
- If we amortize that over 5 years, that's 17.6m Let's simplify it to 18m for discussion.
- Now 34m -18m = 16m....we still have room for Amortization worth 16m.
- Spread over 5 years, and purely based on amortization, that leaves us room for players worth up to 80m in transfer fees.

So, it's not about amortization and it's not about cash flow (as I mentioned in the previous post we won't generate enough cash flow by selling those players). Then what is about? There has to more to it and I am too lazy to do a deep dive into the past few financial statements or go into the depth of FFP/PSR.

Yes but that’s the point I make about it being more complex, it’s not done on a year by year basis. It’s done over 5 years of accounting and we have about 20 players who have their fees being spread over various years so to do the maths on this year alone is pointless.

 

[Leftback99]

Repeating myself again but it's not PSR that's holding us back this summer, it's actual money.

The club is making losses and announcing redundancies. Add the two together it doesn't = big transfer net spend.

 

[Insanity]

Yes but that’s the point I make about it being more complex, it’s not done on a year by year basis. It’s done over 5 years of accounting and we have about 20 players who have their fees being spread over various years so to do the maths on this year alone is pointless.

That is actually a good point and one I completely forgot to take into account. There surely must be pending amortizations from previous seasons too. They add up.

However, is PSR about actual loses or accounting loses?

If anyone has a guide, please refer me in that direction.

 

[The Red Thinker]

Repeating myself again but it's not PSR that's holding us back this summer, it's actual money.

The club is making losses and announcing redundancies. Add the two together it doesn't = big transfer net spend.

if you’re looking at the redundancies as a reason for cash flow trouble then you’re off the mark.

There’s a great article in the Times or the Athletic about what INEOS whenever they takeover companies. They always make cuts and streamline operations. Sure doing that is in itself a mark of losses but it’s more to do with optimisation and ensuring that things are done the “INEOS Way”. Lean and mean is their primary mantra as a company. Had we been making bumper profits too, he’d have done the same.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

We already had Sancho though. And we'd spent right up to our limit before we got Antony according to reports at the time, but had to stretch into the following seasons budgets and an additional credit facility to get Antony. Problem is that we still spent a considerable amount the following year anyway, and now we seemingly can't operate with much freedom in the market at all, with it seemingly being one in, one out. I just recall there being a lot made of the Antony signing and how we financed it.

I’m not completely disagreeing with you, I think there’s being too much made of Anthony signing.

Poor signing, way too much paid for him, but I’m just saying that’s what we’ve been doing for years now. Anthony signing isn’t the straw that broke our FFP back, just one in a long list of bad and awful value signings that have finally come home to roost by causing us issues.

 

[astracrazy]

Repeating myself again but it's not PSR that's holding us back this summer, it's actual money.

The club is making losses and announcing redundancies. Add the two together it doesn't = big transfer net spend.

They make redundancies where ever they go, according to The Athletic anyway. They have their own way of doing things and prefer to run lean. Them doing this was to be expected regardless if we were running at a loss or profit.

 

[Telsim]

I’m not completely disagreeing with you, I think there’s being too much made of Anthony signing.

Poor signing, way too much paid for him, but I’m just saying that’s what we’ve been doing for years now. Anthony signing isn’t the straw that broke our FFP back, just one in a long list of bad and awful value signings that have finally come home to roost by causing us issues.

But isn't Antony's deal a bigger issue because it's under the new PSR rules, unlike those other previous deals? It still hasn't been three years.