City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

Claiming Liverpool v City was the greatest rivalry in EPL history is a bit over the top

Greatest? Maybe not. Too much kissing between Klopp/Pep, not enough bile and hatred and pizza

Best? It has a fair argument. The City Liverpool matches when both teams were on top of their games were excellent spectacles of football. The only other rivalry that delivered in terms of high quality football was United v Arsenal.
 
Bit of a strange reaction to his post :wenger:
I prefer an hypocrite then someone only half hypocrite.

I understand he’s a City fan. But going on like with 115 charges they can be innocent when we know how they are is kind of weird.

If you agree that is not right, just say it.
 
City cannot appeal to CAS it is forbidden in the PL's charter.

I am personally of the opinion that City will suffer a massive hit - whether that means relegation or not is another matter.

The reason I think this is because of the way the PL is set up, which I think a lot of people do not understand on here. It isn't set up like a business, which has to abide by business relegations and laws (in terms of governance) and it is very much set up differently to the Associations - The FA, UEFA, FIFA etc, where they are essentially a regulator for other bodies - namely the clubs. A good example of this is how FFP is allowed to function. FFP should under all business laws be prohibited however, football operates outside of usual business so can implement such a thing.

The best way of describing the PL is like a fabulously wealthy golf club, in which every member has an equal say/share in its governance and changes can only be made if 14 of them vote the same way. They do outsource the adjudication of any accusations, for fairness - but those adjudicators have to be agreed upon by the members.

This is where City are in a lot of trouble.

Firstly, they do not have any legal recourse to go to if anything goes against them - they cannot go to CAS (as the rules of the PL forbid this) and they cannot appeal to legal courts around there exclusions/punishment if they have broken the rules of the golf club - just as someone can't go to court over being kick out of their golf clubs if they have signed up to the club with a contract saying they cannot do so if they're found to have broken its rules (which City and every other PL club have done.)

Secondly, the recommended punishment to the adjudicators will largely be decided by the clubs owing to the share spilt. Remember City here will need at least 6 other clubs to vote with them to avoid the stiffer penalties, however this will be hard for them to do. First, we have all the teams with aspirations for the top 6. Utd, Chelsea, Dippers, Arsenal, Spuds, Newcastle, Villa, Brighton and West Ham are never going to vote with them, as a harsh punishment will benefit them directly as it will open up an additionally CL/EL space for them. That is 9 clubs out. Then you have the most likely relegation threatened teams. Luton, Bournemouth, Sheffield Utd and Burnley. They'll all vote for harsh punishments as a relegated City means only two of them go down. That is 13 teams out. That then leaves, Fulham, Everton, Brentford, Wolves, Palace and Forest for them to try and work with. How many of that lot are going to work with them? I doubt many as they'll likely be fearing a downturn in form or a crack at the European spots. So, the PL is going to recommend a harsh punishment.

Third, the adjudicators only got signed off by having 14/20 clubs agreeing to them. Unless City have already bribed everyone, than that isn't likely. I say this as people need to remember the PL did not need to come out and charge City, they could've easily left it alone after they got off on the technicality with CAS. That they did not tells us that the consensus is that City need to be punished. I mean, why would the PL/clubs go through with doing so unless they're all into the extortion game and what to milk City's owners?

The fly in the obtiment here is that City have lawyered up and are dragging their heels. Going over every single charge and looking for an out - either in the terms of the PL's charter or some legal means - there are laws on membership for instance. Whist, it is more than likely that they have placed a number of injunctions on the media to protect the brand - let's not forget the sportswashing aspect.

I know if it was up to fans the owners and Pep's heads would be on spikes outside Manchester Town Hall as soon as the charges dropped, but this was always going to be a long haul job owing to City's legal team.

However, people need to think about the wider picture, which is that the PL could've easily have avoided this all if they weren't serious, that the PL's rules give City very little room to wriggle out in an appeals court and that the other clubs will benefit by punishing City - whilst they largely get to decide on the punishment.
Well put sir! I sincerely hope that you are right.
 
City cannot appeal to CAS it is forbidden in the PL's charter.

I am personally of the opinion that City will suffer a massive hit - whether that means relegation or not is another matter.

The reason I think this is because of the way the PL is set up, which I think a lot of people do not understand on here. It isn't set up like a business, which has to abide by business relegations and laws (in terms of governance) and it is very much set up differently to the Associations - The FA, UEFA, FIFA etc, where they are essentially a regulator for other bodies - namely the clubs. A good example of this is how FFP is allowed to function. FFP should under all business laws be prohibited however, football operates outside of usual business so can implement such a thing.

The best way of describing the PL is like a fabulously wealthy golf club, in which every member has an equal say/share in its governance and changes can only be made if 14 of them vote the same way. They do outsource the adjudication of any accusations, for fairness - but those adjudicators have to be agreed upon by the members.

This is where City are in a lot of trouble.

Firstly, they do not have any legal recourse to go to if anything goes against them - they cannot go to CAS (as the rules of the PL forbid this) and they cannot appeal to legal courts around there exclusions/punishment if they have broken the rules of the golf club - just as someone can't go to court over being kick out of their golf clubs if they have signed up to the club with a contract saying they cannot do so if they're found to have broken its rules (which City and every other PL club have done.)

Secondly, the recommended punishment to the adjudicators will largely be decided by the clubs owing to the share spilt. Remember City here will need at least 6 other clubs to vote with them to avoid the stiffer penalties, however this will be hard for them to do. First, we have all the teams with aspirations for the top 6. Utd, Chelsea, Dippers, Arsenal, Spuds, Newcastle, Villa, Brighton and West Ham are never going to vote with them, as a harsh punishment will benefit them directly as it will open up an additionally CL/EL space for them. That is 9 clubs out. Then you have the most likely relegation threatened teams. Luton, Bournemouth, Sheffield Utd and Burnley. They'll all vote for harsh punishments as a relegated City means only two of them go down. That is 13 teams out. That then leaves, Fulham, Everton, Brentford, Wolves, Palace and Forest for them to try and work with. How many of that lot are going to work with them? I doubt many as they'll likely be fearing a downturn in form or a crack at the European spots. So, the PL is going to recommend a harsh punishment.

Third, the adjudicators only got signed off by having 14/20 clubs agreeing to them. Unless City have already bribed everyone, than that isn't likely. I say this as people need to remember the PL did not need to come out and charge City, they could've easily left it alone after they got off on the technicality with CAS. That they did not tells us that the consensus is that City need to be punished. I mean, why would the PL/clubs go through with doing so unless they're all into the extortion game and what to milk City's owners?

The fly in the obtiment here is that City have lawyered up and are dragging their heels. Going over every single charge and looking for an out - either in the terms of the PL's charter or some legal means - there are laws on membership for instance. Whist, it is more than likely that they have placed a number of injunctions on the media to protect the brand - let's not forget the sportswashing aspect.

I know if it was up to fans the owners and Pep's heads would be on spikes outside Manchester Town Hall as soon as the charges dropped, but this was always going to be a long haul job owing to City's legal team.

However, people need to think about the wider picture, which is that the PL could've easily have avoided this all if they weren't serious, that the PL's rules give City very little room to wriggle out in an appeals court and that the other clubs will benefit by punishing City - whilst they largely get to decide on the punishment.
A massive punishment would be the right thing for the integrity of the sport, and I don’t think that’s me being biased, it’s just wrong what they have done.
 
I don’t understand how this works at all but I’d guess the difference between City and Everton is that City can afford to buy their way out of this, whereas Everton can’t. So basically city get away with cheating by cheating so much more that it won’t even matter in the end that they’ve cheated.
Do you know who owns Everton, he can also afford to pay himself out of it...
 
What I think will happen is a generous plea deal that will likely see City stripped of some titles and a transfer ban. At the end of the day, stripping titles is meaningless and doesn’t harm them. Even if they aren’t champions on paper, the memories remain for anyone that watched and it’s not like the players will have to turn in their medals.
 
City cannot appeal to CAS it is forbidden in the PL's charter.

I am personally of the opinion that City will suffer a massive hit - whether that means relegation or not is another matter.

The reason I think this is because of the way the PL is set up, which I think a lot of people do not understand on here. It isn't set up like a business, which has to abide by business relegations and laws (in terms of governance) and it is very much set up differently to the Associations - The FA, UEFA, FIFA etc, where they are essentially a regulator for other bodies - namely the clubs. A good example of this is how FFP is allowed to function. FFP should under all business laws be prohibited however, football operates outside of usual business so can implement such a thing.

The best way of describing the PL is like a fabulously wealthy golf club, in which every member has an equal say/share in its governance and changes can only be made if 14 of them vote the same way. They do outsource the adjudication of any accusations, for fairness - but those adjudicators have to be agreed upon by the members.

This is where City are in a lot of trouble.

Firstly, they do not have any legal recourse to go to if anything goes against them - they cannot go to CAS (as the rules of the PL forbid this) and they cannot appeal to legal courts around there exclusions/punishment if they have broken the rules of the golf club - just as someone can't go to court over being kick out of their golf clubs if they have signed up to the club with a contract saying they cannot do so if they're found to have broken its rules (which City and every other PL club have done.)

I’m curious how they are excluded from the CAS due to the PL charter. S it the nature of the charges? Because the CAS has already reviewed City on similar grounds.


Because Chelsea appealed to the CAS a few years ago and won handily.

You’re view of how this could go down seems sound, I’m generally curious about the CAS thing though (when you can appeal to it, when not, etc) fir this particular case.
 
What I think will happen is a generous plea deal that will likely see City stripped of some titles and a transfer ban. At the end of the day, stripping titles is meaningless and doesn’t harm them. Even if they aren’t champions on paper, the memories remain for anyone that watched and it’s not like the players will have to turn in their medals.


I would lean closer to the people who said the PL would want to avoid things like voided titles. To not technically have a winner for so many years, try to wipe away memories… seems counter productive to the larger brand.

But that is bad news for City…. Because if you say “you put together some great teams and did some great things, but you cheated financially to put those teams together” … then the punishment has to be the me that hinders them moving forward … which means something MUCH harsher.

If you can have free rein for a decade plus and it only costs you some transfer bans and a few years away from Europe ? Everyone would do it.

The ownership specifically broke laws AND they have some of the most problematic international ties. They are directly aligned against the home country of the PL in their treaty support of Russia bypassing sanctions, and they are primary sponsors of groups like Hamas as well.

If they were simply rich people FROM Qatar, that wouldn’t necessarily be an issue in this for me. But they are tied to the royal state itself, and If Chelsea’s owner had to sell, I don’t see how an opposition state is allowed to stay, especially with such a massive case of corruption in their actions AS owners being in play.

I know the answer is bribery and money, but nation states owning teams should never have happened in the first place. There comes a point where it’s just too much.
 
I’m curious how they are excluded from the CAS due to the PL charter. S it the nature of the charges? Because the CAS has already reviewed City on similar grounds.


Because Chelsea appealed to the CAS a few years ago and won handily.

You’re view of how this could go down seems sound, I’m generally curious about the CAS thing though (when you can appeal to it, when not, etc) fir this particular case.
They were changed by UEFA previously who's decisions you can appeal to CAS. PL has charged them this time and as he said you cant appeal their decisions to outside bodies. Think it was brought in when teams were threatening to sue West Ham over Tevez.
You'd expect it to go the way he described, thats how its supposed to operate. I can understand people being cynical but its hard to see a way out for them to be honest.
 
The PL have recommended that Everton be hit with a 12 point deduction.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ier-league-12-point-deduction-ffp-punishment/

Got a feeling that this will give some indication as to what will happen with City. 12 points is apprantly the biggest punishment they could've expected. If they get hit with that, then City may be in trouble as it will set a precident.

Of course, if they get away with it, expect the same for City.

Aside from the City vs Everton discussion, the PL should be making absolutely no comments or recommendations regarding the situation. It's supposed to be reviewed and then punishment given by an independent commission. This just adds bias and influence. Shouldn't be allowed.

Also extremely crass to release this the day after Kenwright dies.
 
Aside from the City vs Everton discussion, the PL should be making absolutely no comments or recommendations regarding the situation. It's supposed to be reviewed and then punishment given by an independent commission. This just adds bias and influence. Shouldn't be allowed.

Also extremely crass to release this the day after Kenwright dies.
Is there anything official from the Premier League on this though? As far as I recall, they don't tend to make comments on these things once they've been referred to a panel - unless it's one of the panellists leaking the recommendation by the Premier League themselves. Telling point in the media is whenever they add the word "understands" it seems to be taken as read that their news hasn't been taken from any definite source and rather either been completely fabricated, or ripped from a random tweet somewhere.
 
Is there anything official from the Premier League on this though? As far as I recall, they don't tend to make comments on these things once they've been referred to a panel - unless it's one of the panellists leaking the recommendation by the Premier League themselves. Telling point in the media is whenever they add the word "understands" it seems to be taken as read that their news hasn't been taken from any definite source and rather either been completely fabricated, or ripped from a random tweet somewhere.

Wouldn't be surprised if it's a leak, the PL hasn't conducted itself with great professionalism over the years. But on the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if it's a media fabrication either. They love having a little article about us in the past few years because it's a big story and media drive for them - big club without PL relegation in danger.
 
We're absolutely getting expelled if guilty which I think we will be when all is said and done. Then it's at the discretion of the football league from what I've read whether they accept City and where they place us if they do.
I'd be very surprised if we get a point deduction and not expulsion. If we get a points deduction it'll likely be enough to relegate us to the championship and honestly, if we're guilty we deserve harsher (by we, not the support or players but the owners, the top brass and everyone involved.) What I do want to see if guilty is ownership removed and every board member and person in a position of power banned for life.

For me, I think we'll be found guilty and expelled personally. Where that leads I don't know but do the crime do the time.

Fair play mate.
 
What I think will happen is a generous plea deal that will likely see City stripped of some titles and a transfer ban. At the end of the day, stripping titles is meaningless and doesn’t harm them. Even if they aren’t champions on paper, the memories remain for anyone that watched and it’s not like the players will have to turn in their medals.

Even the most optimistic person that City will get punished knows stripping titles is utterly off the agenda.

That'd be huge, much more important than you suggest, as it'd kill the memories and make them meaningless.
 
We're absolutely getting expelled if guilty which I think we will be when all is said and done. Then it's at the discretion of the football league from what I've read whether they accept City and where they place us if they do.
I'd be very surprised if we get a point deduction and not expulsion. If we get a points deduction it'll likely be enough to relegate us to the championship and honestly, if we're guilty we deserve harsher (by we, not the support or players but the owners, the top brass and everyone involved.) What I do want to see if guilty is ownership removed and every board member and person in a position of power banned for life.

For me, I think we'll be found guilty and expelled personally. Where that leads I don't know but do the crime do the time.

Wow, do you really think this would happen?
It'd be the most incredible situation in English football in living memory.

I think there will be a punishment but flimsy ish. Plus no stripping of titles.
But there's no chance ownership could be removed. That takes world significance war types situations like we saw with Abrahmovich.
 
The UAE have invested heavily in Manchester and will put significant pressure on the Government who in turn will apply pressure to the PL.
I would like to think someone would stand up to them, but just can't see it happening.

On a more general level, I'd like to see far less fawning from Sky/BT and MOTD about City Football Group. Everything they've achieved is built on sand and realistically their performances should just be brushed over rather than euologised
 
Can they really charge Everton this season when it will apparently take 2-4 years to charge City? If City can defend/postpone it then why can`t Everton?
 
The UAE have invested heavily in Manchester and will put significant pressure on the Government who in turn will apply pressure to the PL.
I would like to think someone would stand up to them, but just can't see it happening.

On a more general level, I'd like to see far less fawning from Sky/BT and MOTD about City Football Group. Everything they've achieved is built on sand and realistically their performances should just be brushed over rather than euologised

They didn't really invest that heavily, the council just did a deal that is now being considered extremely dodgy. This is from the Guardian article last year, it's wordy but the story is so obviously corrupt by the end you almost laugh with Bernstein's appointment to CFG.

As one of the rulers of an autocratic kingdom that has an appalling reputation for repression and an addiction to oil revenues, Sheikh Mansour stood to gain so much from this partnership. It was the council that held almost all the cards: the hectares of publicly owned land, the planning regime, the public subsidies. Yet somehow, according to new research shared exclusively today with the Guardian and authored by academics at Sheffield University, it was Sheikh Mansour who pocketed almost all the winnings. The report says that nine sites were sold to the sheikh at a fraction of their value, and well below what other plots nearby fetched (the council says it used independent experts using standard valuations, although it won’t give any more details). They were on leases lasting 999 years, well beyond the norm. And the fund shifted what had been public assets to companies registered in Jersey.

That walk along the water from New Islington into Ancoats now passes blocks of privatised land owned in an offshore tax haven, which yields millions upon millions for a key member of the wealthy elite running a surveillance state halfway across the globe. One of the greatest cities in the world has sold itself to a senior figure in a brutal autocracy – and not even for a good price.

This is the devastating implication in the first thorough study of the Manchester Life scheme, which is a product of months pouring over company accounts and planning applications. The city council is sometimes keener to criticise its critics than to hear what they have to say: Leese, its leader for 25 years until 2021, once responded to those calling for more affordable housing as “middle class tosspots and I hate them”. So let us knock on the head any personal attacks: the experts have all lived in the city for decades, I am one of the independent and unpaid advisers on the advisory panel, and this is a report issued squarely in the public interest.

Among a political establishment still scratching its head over how to level up, Manchester is celebrated as a pioneer. Its Labour leadership has been praised by Conservative administrations, while Osborne called its chief executive, Sir Howard Bernstein, “the star of British local government”.

Bernstein ran the council for nearly two decades until 2017, and sat on the board of Manchester Life. Yet its success has come at a high price for the little people who just happen to live in the city. Not only have the assets they owned been sold cheap, they have got little back. The nine developed sites have no social or affordable housing, which the council’s planning officers justified with statements such as: “There is already a high level of affordable housing in the immediate area.” The same council admitted earlier this year that nearly 4,000 of the city’s children sleep each night in temporary accommodation.

At the Manchester Life developments, a two-bed flat is considered a bargain if it goes for £369,000 – a price that puts it off limits to couples working full-time on an average salary. As for tax, the sums paid to the Exchequer seem risible. One of its main subsidiaries earned more than £26m in the five years to 2021, but, the researchers found, paid less than £10,000 in tax – an effective rate of just 4p on each £100 of revenue. Manchester Life told me that its subsidiaries “pay all UK corporation or income tax due on rental income and profits”. It would not, however, disclose how much tax it pays or on how much revenue.

It is right to say that New Islington and Ancoats are vastly more pleasant areas than they were even five years ago – but the big question is who has won from redevelopment and who has lost. Putting hard numbers on that is tricky when so much of the information about Manchester Life – a venture using public assets and public subsidy with a public authority – is kept strictly private.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...st-built-homes-europe-extreme-weather-upgrade
I asked the report’s authors to calculate how much the council could have earned from this deal. Looking at examples of other land deals and other local councils, their conservative estimate is £33m, plus up to £1.7m a year in rent. Both the council and the joint venture described that sum as “speculative”. The council also said it expected more money to come through an overage or profit-share arrangement, although it did not provide any details of this agreement nor are they on public record. But for comparison, that £33m would more than cover what the city pays in a year to put up families in temporary housing.

Sheikh Mansour will presumably know exactly how much Manchester Life is netting him – and can look forward to 10 centuries of rental income from the land in this great city. He seems content with the arrangement. A few months after Bernstein retired from the council, he was appointed as the senior strategic adviser for City Football Group, owned by Sheikh Mansour. I asked the council what procedures it followed on Bernstein’s subsequent appointment with such an important business partner. It could not tell me.
 
I'm amazed at how little the other clubs are exerting pressure on the PL. We should be saying we'll start independent negotiations for TV deal(s) unless it's resolved by the end of this season.

The other clubs should be all refusing to play them until the charges have been dealt with rather than sitting back and doing nothing
 
The current charges against City only cover a period upto 2018 don't they?

If so is there another investgation looking into their finances from 2018 onwards?
 
The other clubs should be all refusing to play them until the charges have been dealt with rather than sitting back and doing nothing

They would open themselves up to lawsuits from both City and the board casters if they did that. Innocent until proven guilty is how things are handled.
 
The current charges against City only cover a period upto 2018 don't they?

If so is there another investgation looking into their finances from 2018 onwards?

I suspect they started playing by the rules at that point. Hence, why it wasn't included in the charges.
 
The current charges against City only cover a period upto 2018 don't they?

If so is there another investgation looking into their finances from 2018 onwards?

Vaguely recall there were posts in the thread that answers this, not sure whereabouts though. I vaguely recall it being mentioned, or I'm possibly making this up, that City have not complied with any requests after 2018. Perhaps the investigation started around that time and was not looking into "future" years.
 
Relegation. Give them the Saracens treatment. Give titles to those they’ve ppped to the post. Even if it means Liverpool getting more. They’ll be back but at least there’s tangible tainting of their empty as feck legacy.

Can’t stand how the media just ignores the charges and rates them among the best ever.

A man can dream.
 
Vaguely recall there were posts in the thread that answers this, not sure whereabouts though. I vaguely recall it being mentioned, or I'm possibly making this up, that City have not complied with any requests after 2018. Perhaps the investigation started around that time and was not looking into "future" years.

Yeah sounds familiar alright, hopefully there's another investigation under way for 2018 onwards. Unlikely they cleaned up their act when they thought they were above the rules for all these years.
 
it’s interesting how when the “big red” teams start feeling threatened by their “little blue” neighbours, all these spurious charges appear from nowhere. maybe i’m putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, but none of this was happening when united‘s trophy cabinet wasn’t threatened by city and when the likes of dele alli were playing elsewhere.
 
it’s interesting how when the “big red” teams start feeling threatened by their “little blue” neighbours, all these spurious charges appear from nowhere. maybe i’m putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, but none of this was happening when united‘s trophy cabinet wasn’t threatened by city and when the likes of dele alli were playing elsewhere.
Parodying conspiracy theorists doesn’t function so well humouristically, as there are always so many people who express exactly the same opinions in exctly the same tone of voice.
 
Parodying conspiracy theorists doesn’t function so well humouristically, as there are always so many people who express exactly the same opinions in exctly the same tone of voice.

1. It is @rimaldo

2. The last few pages of this thread contain posts in the classic conspiracy theory tradition, in lieu of actual facts yet to be exposed
 
The current charges against City only cover a period upto 2018 don't they?

If so is there another investgation looking into their finances from 2018 onwards?

Sort of, City have refused to release any of their accounts post 2018, which is when they got wind that they were under
investigation by UEFA. They have continued to refuse to release the details for the new investigation opened by the PL.

Some of the 115 charges levied relate to refusing to cooperate with the investigations as a result. I’d say its a fair assumption that they have continued to break the rules since 2018 because of the refusal to cooperate, and also because of the other things that have become apparent since 2018 such as the made up betting sponsor that was widely reported.
 
Sort of, City have refused to release any of their accounts post 2018, which is when they got wind that they were under
investigation by UEFA. They have continued to refuse to release the details for the new investigation opened by the PL.

Some of the 115 charges levied relate to refusing to cooperate with the investigations as a result. I’d say its a fair assumption that they have continued to break the rules since 2018 because of the refusal to cooperate, and also because of the other things that have become apparent since 2018 such as the made up betting sponsor that was widely reported.

The sheer scale of their cheating is probably still not known. And I don't think many would be shocked if their cheating wasn't only confined to financial doping.
 
Possibly but I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised if they're still cheating financially.

Some dodgy sponsors, shady unknown crypto and betting companies etc, have definitely been noted since then.
 
Any idea when there will be an outcome to these charges?
 
Any idea when there will be an outcome to these charges?
Around about 2075. Then they will be found guilty and fined £25, suspended for 12 years and warned of their future conduct. Pep says we done nothing wrong and will apppeal.
 
If or when $hitty gets a real punishment, i really hope all the pundits and media stop kissing $hittys arse. I am so sick of listening to everyone singing the praise of FC 115.

If I remember correctly when the charges were brought MOTD said something like 'it's not the players fault though is it', and The Sunday Supplement used to harp on about how well they looked after the press.

It tells you all you need to know about where the press are with this.