City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

Nickelodeon said:
City have built a brilliant academy structure and as more players like Lavia, Trafford, Bazunu etc. get sold, their academy ones would become even more sought after, especially if there are other successes like Lavia.

If City actually get away without any major damages to the 115 charges, they are going to dominate for a while and that too without spending exorbitantly as done in the past.
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Can Lavia even considered a City academy product? They signed him at 16 years old and sold him 2 years later.
 
WeePat said:
Can Lavia even considered a City academy product? They signed him at 16 years old and sold him 2 years later.
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I don't mean academy product in the literal sense of the word. It's developing youth players and then either getting a first team player on the cheap or selling off a talented youngster for a, sometimes huge, profit.
 
simonhch said:
Snap up top youth talent from around the globe, trade on their successful brand, sell on for good fees. Virtually no realistic first team pathway. It’s a business model. It works. Not my cup of tea. I prefer developing youth players with the idea of actually integrating them into the squad, but that’s why we are United and they are City. That’s why we’ve had a youth player in every match day squad since 1937. Not a single game missed. Sometimes, as a result, we hold on to young players too long, to give them a real shot. Then when you sell, other clubs know their true quality and that they are surplus to requirements. It’s not a strategy designed to maximise sale value. It’s a strategy to maximise value to the first team and continue an incredible tradition and fundamental principle of the club.

Anyone casting envious glances needs to reassess if they even understand what supporting this club means. You can’t have it both ways. You either sell a player right at that point where their performances are too good for youth football and you are forced to give them a shot, hence maximal potential, or you give them a pathway to the first team that may result in (a) getting a valuable homegrown academy player, (b) selling on eventually at a reduced price, or (c) releasing or selling for peanuts if they fail to make the step up. What you can’t do is sell them at their highest potential point, where perceived value is the highest, and give them a first team shot.

We are United. We develop players to play in our team, it’s exactly what we are all about. Those who don’t make it, usually go on to have good careers elsewhere because of all the time investment we’ve made in them. But if it swells you with more pride to sell on all the talented youngsters before they’ve even been given a shot, because somehow that makes us master negotiators, then maybe go and support City. They do that better than anyone.

Borges for instance. Imagine we’ve sold Greenwood for 14m before he’d been given a first team shot. Or Rashford for 10m plus bonuses before he’d played a competitive PL game in anger. We could easily have sold either for that money. But what a betrayal of everything this club stands for that would have been. There is literally nothing about City, not their incredibly shady but talented manager or mega billions, that I envy. It’s a completely soulless and corrupt enterprise, with very few true fans, traditions, or principles.
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We don't develop many youth players into our first team though.
 
VeevaVee said:
It might interest them if they were to get a totally free player out of it though. I’m not sure any club would want in on City’s dodgy dealings at the moment, mind.
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A free player, as in Carlos Borges? If so, City have to not only give £14m back to West Ham, they'll have to create a false money trail for West Ham's accounts. It's not even comparable to the wage issue, it's a whole other league in terms of both risk and complications. For wages it's somewhat easy, and the risk is all of City, while here it's much more difficult and just as risky for the other clubs. It's also straight up illegal, while the wage thing doesn't have to be. In addition to all of this, with the wages it's in the interest of all parties to keep quiet, while here you're counting on your competitors not ratting you out.
 
Hammondo said:
We don't develop many youth players into our first team though.
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Well that’s just not true is it? If it was that afore mentioned record wouldn’t be a thing for a start. Likewise if it wasn’t for personal choices, two of our starting front three would be from the academy, which is a boast few, if any, top club can make.
 
simonhch said:
Well that’s just not true is it? If it was that afore mentioned record wouldn’t be a thing for a start. Likewise if it wasn’t for personal choices, two of our starting front three would be from the academy, which is a boast few, if any, top club can make.
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I'm not even sure we have a front 3, rashford (obviously academy), Antony (obviously not), and ? We don't have a striker yet. Obviously you mean Garnacho, which is true he broke through last season and he's done well, but none of our midfield is, none of our defence is, not obviously our new goalie. I might have missed someone but obviously this is not a lot. Probably below the average and not that different from City.

We did far more in the past, but it seems we have fallen behind with our academy.
 
Hammondo said:
I'm not even sure we have a front 3, rashford (obviously academy), Antony (obviously not), and ? We don't have a striker yet. Obviously you mean Garnacho, which is true he broke through last season and he's done well, but none of our midfield is, none of our defence is, not obviously our new goalie. I might have missed someone but obviously this is not a lot. Probably below the average and not that different from City.

We did far more in the past, but it seems we have fallen behind with our academy.
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He meant Greenwood.
 
NotThatSoph said:
A free player, as in Carlos Borges? If so, City have to not only give £14m back to West Ham, they'll have to create a false money trail for West Ham's accounts. It's not even comparable to the wage issue, it's a whole other league in terms of both risk and complications. For wages it's somewhat easy, and the risk is all of City, while here it's much more difficult and just as risky for the other clubs. It's also straight up illegal, while the wage thing doesn't have to be. In addition to all of this, with the wages it's in the interest of all parties to keep quiet, while here you're counting on your competitors not ratting you out.
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I’m not saying it what’s happened, because it’s unlikely another club would want in on this now. But fake money trails are exactly what City have been doing with their ‘sponsors’.
 
Hammondo said:
I'm not even sure we have a front 3, rashford (obviously academy), Antony (obviously not), and ? We don't have a striker yet. Obviously you mean Garnacho, which is true he broke through last season and he's done well, but none of our midfield is, none of our defence is, not obviously our new goalie. I might have missed someone but obviously this is not a lot. Probably below the average and not that different from City.

We did far more in the past, but it seems we have fallen behind with our academy.
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No, we would have had Rashford and Greenwood, as two of the front three. Both from the academy through and through. We also have Garnacho who this season could’ve made it all three from the academy on many occasions. That would have been simply remarkable for a top club.

Academy players often come in waves, but the fact you can’t see the incredible tradition and success we have bringing through academy players and giving them a viable first team pathway, is more than a little alarming.
 
simonhch said:
No, we would have had Rashford and Greenwood, as two of the front three. Both from the academy through and through. We also have Garnacho who this season could’ve made it all three from the academy on many occasions. That would have been simply remarkable for a top club.
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Remarkable because they are all attackers, but the number we produce isn't.
 
Hammondo said:
Remarkable because they are all attackers, but the number we produce isn't.
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Were probably at a low ebb at the moment but McTominay seems probable to be here for another season and i think getting any academy players in your first team is notable at this level today.
Barcelona are similarly noted for developing acadamy players and they have Gavi, Araujo and that left back in their team. Thats during a rebuilding phase centred on a lot of young players.
Liverpool have a few guys floating around the fringes of the team but no one meaningful in a pretty long time. Chelsea have just lost 1 or their only 2 academy prospects they've developed in about 20 years
 
Flying high said:
It does make sense, if city are able to claim they received more for a transfer than they actually have, by secretly refunding the buyer from another source. It's exactly the sort of thing they've been accused of. I highly doubt WH would be party to such an agreement though.
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I doubt this is happening but if it was it probably wouldnt be too difficult to do it in a way that will be hard if not impossible for the relevant authorities to detect.[/QUOTE]
 
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caid said:
Were probably at a low ebb at the moment but McTominay seems probable to be here for another season and i think getting any academy players in your first team is notable at this level today.
Barcelona are similarly noted for developing acadamy players and they have Gavi, Araujo and that left back in their team. Thats during a rebuilding phase centred on a lot of young players.
Liverpool have a few guys floating around the fringes of the team but no one meaningful in a pretty long time. Chelsea have just lost 1 or their only 2 academy prospects they've developed in about 20 years
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I think in general the traditionally top teams have fallen behind. I think they to a certain extent assumed they would be towards the top always, and it's not worked out quite that way. I think a lack of investment, and in some instances a lack of modern football philosophy has hurt them.
 
Nickelodeon said:
City have built a brilliant academy structure and as more players like Lavia, Trafford, Bazunu etc. get sold, their academy ones would become even more sought after, especially if there are other successes like Lavia.

If City actually get away without any major damages to the 115 charges, they are going to dominate for a while and that too without spending exorbitantly as done in the past.
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City have spent the last 15 years making illegal payments to parents of children around the age of 6. It’s nothing to be lauded. Just a continuation of what they do as a club.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
It will take years.

I saw a friend over the weekend that works in financial markets and he told me that he recently met someone that works on the Premier League's legal team and that they told him that the Premier League have overwhelming evidence against Man City, but it's likely to be a very long drawn out battle.
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If that was true, then they should be freezed out of the premier league for a season or whatever time it takes to come to a conclusion.
They should be able to play so their players keep match fitness and but their games shouldn't give points to anybody.
 
Jeppers7 said:
City have spent the last 15 years making illegal payments to parents of children around the age of 6. It’s nothing to be lauded. Just a continuation of what they do as a club.
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Pretty much. Everything they do know which is successful and is "legit" is just a legacy of past illegal activities. It's really nothing to be lauded. It was well executed, in an industry dominated by buffoons, but it's just similar to organised crime. Yippee.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
It will take years.

I saw a friend over the weekend that works in financial markets and he told me that he recently met someone that works on the Premier League's legal team and that they told him that the Premier League have overwhelming evidence against Man City, but it's likely to be a very long drawn out battle.
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They should suspend them until it’s resolved - that might make them comply more willingly. All the clubs being knocked out of cups, losing European places and obviously missing out on league titles against them is ethically wrong and makes a mockery of the game in this country.

This is why oil states shouldn’t be allowed into football, a silly little club like Manchester City could be punished swiftly - but then would never be relevant enough to require punishing anyway - but up against a literal nation and its political leverage disguised as a little football club makes things far more complexed.

the rest of the clubs should show a backbone and collectively refuse to participate in the PL until action is done.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
It will take years.

I saw a friend over the weekend that works in financial markets and he told me that he recently met someone that works on the Premier League's legal team and that they told him that the Premier League have overwhelming evidence against Man City, but it's likely to be a very long drawn out battle.
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Why would overwhelming evidence lead to a very long drawn out battle?

Overwhelming evidence means all the power is on the PL's side and it's in City's best interest to find a settlement that doesn't ruin them.
 
adexkola said:
Why would overwhelming evidence lead to a very long drawn out battle?

Overwhelming evidence means all the power is on the PL's side and it's in City's best interest to find a settlement that doesn't ruin them.
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Because City can afford to frustrate the whole process. Injunction after injunction, teams of lawyers arguing every detail into the minutiae.
 
Spark said:
Because City can afford to frustrate the whole process. Injunction after injunction, teams of lawyers arguing every detail into the minutiae.
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Overwhelming evidence is not evidence that can be argued on minutiae. This is "there is video from the supermarket of the alleged murderer saying his government name and leaving his DNA on the scene as he murders said person" evidence. That's not evidence that is sensibly argued against.
 
adexkola said:
Overwhelming evidence is not evidence that can be argued on minutiae. This is "there is video from the supermarket of the alleged murderer saying his government name and leaving his DNA on the scene as he murders said person" evidence. That's not evidence that is sensibly argued against.
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Except even in those murder cases, there’s mitigation to consider. While the outcome might be obvious, they still take time.

Plus in a civil case, even with overwhelming evidence, an army of the most expensive lawyers can still argue extensively over technicalities. That means the EPL need to make sure their overwhelming evidence is watertight and they haven’t fecked up their handling of evidence at any stage.

That takes ages when you’re up against unlimited funds. It’s not like they just drop their evidence and the judges go “oh yeah fair enough City cheated, chuck the book at them”. The burden of proof is always on the claimant and the allegations serious and City can afford to have Mr Clifford and Mr Chance up all night personally combing through every bit of evidence.

Law generally moves slow as feck on a good day, pretty sure there’s a backlog post covid to contend with too.

Is there a court date in the diary yet?
 
Nickelodeon said:
City have built a brilliant academy structure and as more players like Lavia, Trafford, Bazunu etc. get sold, their academy ones would become even more sought after, especially if there are other successes like Lavia.

If City actually get away without any major damages to the 115 charges, they are going to dominate for a while and that too without spending exorbitantly as done in the past.
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Similar to Chelsea not as many as previously as the limit on loans has nerfed the old structure of hoovering up everyone and loaning them out forever. So now its kinda a clear plan to buy up the talented youth and move them on if they don't make it.

The fact City turned down £20m for Delap 2 years ago tells you the level he could've been playing at, even if he has not kicked on cause of injury, and is now on loan at Hull. Theres a right time for players to get out I feel, the likes of Porro, Harrison etc.. I think if you aren't sniffing about the first team by 21/22 its in Cities best interest to move them on which the new loan rules practically force on stockpiling clubs like City and Chelsea.

Personally I think its better for the player development too, Harrison, Porro, Nmecha, Adarabioyo and Lavia all quickly established themselves as good players at their own levels, whereas guys like Boyota waited too long and too much of their career playing reserve football at City leaving at 24/25.
 
I don’t see why it would be a problem to kick City down a division or 2 when that is the natural level they were at before the illegal doping.
It’s the least they deserve after making a mockery of everyone else in the league.
 
Isn't this crazy that it's still dragging on. I saw that Chelsea were fined today, and Juve kicked out of the Europa Conf league... Yet Citi are still there with nothing. So strange.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
It will take years.

I saw a friend over the weekend that works in financial markets and he told me that he recently met someone that works on the Premier League's legal team and that they told him that the Premier League have overwhelming evidence against Man City, but it's likely to be a very long drawn out battle.
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I'm still amazed the Premier League did anything about it. To publicly accuse your leagues dominant team of cheating is a big step. They must be certain.

caid said:
Were probably at a low ebb at the moment but McTominay seems probable to be here for another season and i think getting any academy players in your first team is notable at this level today.
Barcelona are similarly noted for developing acadamy players and they have Gavi, Araujo and that left back in their team. Thats during a rebuilding phase centred on a lot of young players.
Liverpool have a few guys floating around the fringes of the team but no one meaningful in a pretty long time. Chelsea have just lost 1 or their only 2 academy prospects they've developed in about 20 years
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No top club has many youth team players though. The days of the class of 93 and the Busby Babes were anomalies. Barca had a similar thing 15 years ago but that didn't last. Realistically if there's 4 or 5 in the squad, you're doing really well.
 
KGBhoy said:
Isn't this crazy that it's still dragging on. I saw that Chelsea were fined today, and Juve kicked out of the Europa Conf league... Yet Citi are still there with nothing. So strange.
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City already made UEFA and FFP look like a fool. Now it's PL and it's FFP turn to be humiliated soon.

Khaldoon already laughing and talking big on the 115 charges as if it's nothing. We all know that City will win against the useless PL.

City is so blatantly and obviously cheating for more than a decade compared to Juventus and Chelsea but nothing happened to them. UEFA even going after RM and Barca on some of their revenues (selling future rights and etc) to be considered not revenues for FFP.
 
KGBhoy said:
Isn't this crazy that it's still dragging on. I saw that Chelsea were fined today, and Juve kicked out of the Europa Conf league... Yet Citi are still there with nothing. So strange.
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Too many brown envelopes for anything to happen. If Juve had the political and financial wealth of City they wouldn’t have been banned. City are untouchable now - rebuilding the entire stadiums / facility, allowed to retain their fake title wins and will continue challenging for the CL every year without any issues.
 
Tyrion said:
I'm still amazed the Premier League did anything about it. To publicly accuse your leagues dominant team of cheating is a big step. They must be certain.
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Certain of the facts, sure. That doesn’t mean it will lead to anything. And when it doesn’t, if questioned the Pl can say that it did it’s due diligence etc and hence retains transparency / credibility as an institution.
 
KGBhoy said:
Isn't this crazy that it's still dragging on. I saw that Chelsea were fined today, and Juve kicked out of the Europa Conf league... Yet Citi are still there with nothing. So strange.
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The Chelsea one is a little different. The new owners actually called UEFA and said "we've found something missing in the accounts from years ago, what can we do?" Man City are denying any wrongdoing so it's going to drag on.

As for Juve, who knows but they always seem to be getting caught doing shady shit.
 
simonhch said:
Snap up top youth talent from around the globe, trade on their successful brand, sell on for good fees. Virtually no realistic first team pathway. It’s a business model. It works. Not my cup of tea. I prefer developing youth players with the idea of actually integrating them into the squad, but that’s why we are United and they are City. That’s why we’ve had a youth player in every match day squad since 1937. Not a single game missed. Sometimes, as a result, we hold on to young players too long, to give them a real shot. Then when you sell, other clubs know their true quality and that they are surplus to requirements. It’s not a strategy designed to maximise sale value. It’s a strategy to maximise value to the first team and continue an incredible tradition and fundamental principle of the club.

Anyone casting envious glances needs to reassess if they even understand what supporting this club means. You can’t have it both ways. You either sell a player right at that point where their performances are too good for youth football and you are forced to give them a shot, hence maximal potential, or you give them a pathway to the first team that may result in (a) getting a valuable homegrown academy player, (b) selling on eventually at a reduced price, or (c) releasing or selling for peanuts if they fail to make the step up. What you can’t do is sell them at their highest potential point, where perceived value is the highest, and give them a first team shot.

We are United. We develop players to play in our team, it’s exactly what we are all about. Those who don’t make it, usually go on to have good careers elsewhere because of all the time investment we’ve made in them. But if it swells you with more pride to sell on all the talented youngsters before they’ve even been given a shot, because somehow that makes us master negotiators, then maybe go and support City. They do that better than anyone.

Borges for instance. Imagine we’ve sold Greenwood for 14m before he’d been given a first team shot. Or Rashford for 10m plus bonuses before he’d played a competitive PL game in anger. We could easily have sold either for that money. But what a betrayal of everything this club stands for that would have been. There is literally nothing about City, not their incredibly shady but talented manager or mega billions, that I envy. It’s a completely soulless and corrupt enterprise, with very few true fans, traditions, or principles.
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Excellent post.
 
As others have said I think this signing of city youth players is a non issue. Clubs like Southampton, Wham etc are just looking to copy the Brighton model, arguably with less risk, by signing the most highly rated youth players from the “best” club in the country.

In theory if the youth team players progress it’s a cheap method of acquiring a future star and potentially a future windfall from the inevitable sale down the line. To most clubs in the Premier League (and championship), without Brighton’s scouting, this is as close as they will ever get to having a functioning system without investing properly in their existing one.
 
adexkola said:
Why would overwhelming evidence lead to a very long drawn out battle?

Overwhelming evidence means all the power is on the PL's side and it's in City's best interest to find a settlement that doesn't ruin them.
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City's owners have already made it clear when they were charged by UEFA they would fight every single point to the bitter end and wear the prosecution down, they have the means to do it as well.

This could end up going on and on and on for years. The most likely scenario will be some kind of plea deal with a huge fine and suspended sentence because it's tarnishing both City and the PL.

City don't want their success to be treated as suspicious and the PL don't want their league to be dominated by a side who everybody bar Man City fans believes have cheated to get there.

People are saying it's football's Lance Armstrong's moment but Armstrong wasn't being funded by a state. Even if City get wind the PL is going to throw the book at them, the owners will be straight on to Downing Street who will clearly side with their allies whose trade is worth more than 20 billion quid a year to the UK economy.
 
adexkola said:
Overwhelming evidence is not evidence that can be argued on minutiae. This is "there is video from the supermarket of the alleged murderer saying his government name and leaving his DNA on the scene as he murders said person" evidence. That's not evidence that is sensibly argued against.
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Is doesn't work like that. It's just not that simple.

Money talks. Well, it buys lawyers that do.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
City already made UEFA and FFP look like a fool. Now it's PL and it's FFP turn to be humiliated soon.

Khaldoon already laughing and talking big on the 115 charges as if it's nothing. We all know that City will win against the useless PL.

City is so blatantly and obviously cheating for more than a decade compared to Juventus and Chelsea but nothing happened to them. UEFA even going after RM and Barca on some of their revenues (selling future rights and etc) to be considered not revenues for FFP.
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Sadly, I agree. The worst thing to happen to them will be a fine which khaldoon can pay off with money fallen down the back of his sofa.
 
padzilla said:
City's owners have already made it clear when they were charged by UEFA they would fight every single point to the bitter end and wear the prosecution down, they have the means to do it as well.

This could end up going on and on and on for years. The most likely scenario will be some kind of plea deal with a huge fine and suspended sentence because it's tarnishing both City and the PL.

City don't want their success to be treated as suspicious and the PL don't want their league to be dominated by a side who everybody bar Man City fans believes have cheated to get there.

People are saying it's football's Lance Armstrong's moment but Armstrong wasn't being funded by a state. Even if City get wind the PL is going to throw the book at them, the owners will be straight on to Downing Street who will clearly side with their allies whose trade is worth more than 20 billion quid a year to the UK economy.
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This is the problem and why the game is really dead as we know, these state backed teams won’t have cycles of rebuilding, they won’t face serious punishments for cheating, they can basically do as they please - same as when Saudi got blocked from buying Newcastle. MBS called Boris Johnson and magically the takeover was then allowed.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
This is the problem and why the game is really dead as we know, these state backed teams won’t have cycles of rebuilding, they won’t face serious punishments for cheating, they can basically do as they please - same as when Saudi got blocked from buying Newcastle. MBS called Boris Johnson and magically the takeover was then allowed.
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Yep, state-owned sides have bigger resources available to them than the leagues they are playing in. If City were given a heavy penalty it would result in significant pressure both financially and politically being applied.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Certain of the facts, sure. That doesn’t mean it will lead to anything. And when it doesn’t, if questioned the Pl can say that it did it’s due diligence etc and hence retains transparency / credibility as an institution.
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I don't think anything will happen either. They'll probably buy their way out of it. But I do think the PL would only do this if they felt they had to and would rather win the case then fail.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
It will take years.

I saw a friend over the weekend that works in financial markets and he told me that he recently met someone that works on the Premier League's legal team and that they told him that the Premier League have overwhelming evidence against Man City, but it's likely to be a very long drawn out battle.
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adexkola said:
Why would overwhelming evidence lead to a very long drawn out battle?

Overwhelming evidence means all the power is on the PL's side and it's in City's best interest to find a settlement that doesn't ruin them.
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The latest update is that he believes they're currently on a path for a settlement and it won't get to a tribunal. The Premier League have been impressed by the reaction to the charges and how City are now operating.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
The latest update is that he believes they're currently on a path for a settlement and it won't get to a tribunal. The Premier League have been impressed by the reaction to the charges and how City are now operating.
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Do you have an evidence/reports to back this up?
 
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