Ferguson's transfer record in his last few seasons wasn't great either actually. He left a pretty unbalanced squad. But that's all speculation now anyway.
City agree £30m fee with Swansea for Bony
- Thread starter Santos J
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
United this season is a different matter, but is more a unique season to us as we were in situation we were, but look at the seasons before and what players were supposed to come if SAF had stayed).
City is also different, as they are also unique in England, as Chelsea has changed the ways they operate. They like to spend on players they think can make a direct impact, but still allow managers to bring they own players so they make themselves problems.
Arsenal does good scouting, just Wenger doesn't spend enough, but they have spent well this season, just not enough, Chelsea is better and better, look how many young players they have got and sold (they have to do it because of the FFP and don't give them much chance, but the scouting is there - Matić was a very good buy, then Azpilicueta, Ivanović, we will see with Zouma, Curtois, Cahill was cheap even if not a WC player.
English are actually changing it's just that they have every season a Real like transfer (not that big) so that's more interesting than the other transfers they make.
But he won titles, he outplayed Real in his last season, so, he could manage that club. It wasn't unbalanced to him. About speculation, we all know that he would have sold Rooney and we would have to bring at least 2 players and I think that it has been confirmed that Herrera (since we played them), Strootman, Thiago (I think he spoke to Barca about him 2 years prior his retirement) and Garay were scouted and actually offered to Moyes, but he rejected them and then agreed to Herrera but it was to late. I think that we can assume that at least some of them would have come.
The club wasn't so unbalanced as people say. If we had bought a proper midfielder and a left back last season it would have been enough for the CL (one more player would be enough to challenge for the title) so we would not need to spend as much this season. But we didn't do it and we know what happened after.
It's already absurd if you look at the role Robben played in the last 2 seasons at Real in comparison to Nani's last 2 seasons at United. It's true that Robben failed to live up to his potential at Madrid, but at no point did he suck as badly as Nani for such a long time. When he was fit, he played a crucial role in their title win in 2008 and he had a great run in his final season as well. It's an absurd comparison whatever way you look at it. Even on the Caf many people rated Robben and would have happily signed him after Ronaldo was sold and the main criticism was his injury record, not his performances. Just look it up in the transfer threads from 2009. There's no way any top club would have even considered to buy Nani, again United have to pay his wages so that he plays somewhere else. Absurd doesn't even begin to compare it.
/edit:
Anyway, it got way off topic. If English fans and more importantly clubs really believe that £30m is fair value for Bony, I'm really happy with that. Great deal.
Last edited:
The fee is no different than what we've been paying for players recently.
Here actually I agree with you in one part, Robben was actually good for Madrid, just they have decided to sell him.
I don't agree about Nani's form, he wasn't shit, in most games he played he was OK, better then any other of our wingers, created always something, but he was injured to often and Moyes just wanted players who are better defensively which just was a mistakes as Valencia didn't do anything up front.
But yes, the situation wasn't the same, Robben was in a better form (actually a good form for most clubs, just not for Real, God knows why) and he was playing more.
Not including penalties.
Falcao at Atletico: 39 goals, 5 assists, 97 hours.
Bony at Swansea: 21 goals, 8 assists, 63 hours.
Falcao at Atletico: 4.5 goals/assists per 10 hours.
Bony at Swansea: 4.6 goals/assists per 10 hours.
Back when Falcao had a great injury record, which used to give him great end of season goal tallies, despite not being much more prolific than Bony, Dzeko or Giroud.
Last edited:
I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with that.
The most wasteful frustrating twat ever to wear the shirt.
So your answer to the problem of ridiculous intra-league transfer fees is to simply avoid that market altogether? And you don't think there's an air of unreality to what you're saying with the POV of a club who can practically do whatever they want?
You buy inside your league for a myriad of reasons, the pricing that comes with that is accepted by all and is the penalty that comes with being a big club poaching from smaller ones.
My post makes no sense, and yet I'm talking about buying a proven performer from one PL side to deliver for another? That makes no sense to you? This isn't about nationality (only) it's about buying players who are settled into the league and have experienced it from top to bottom i.e. done the whole seasonal calender and performed throughout. Players like that, that can be bought, are always going to be snapped up.
In fact, I'm not even sure why you mentioned nationality at all - Bayern have free rein over the entire BL irrespective of where a player is from. If you want him, he'll be yours 90 something percent of the time and that is never the case for a top club in England in their home market.
Your last sentence is also glib and very generic. It's a somewhat throwaway statement that can be made from someone whose perspective is molded by the almost total abandon Bayern have. Niche markets no longer remain niche once English clubs involve themselves. Generally, they are plundered and left and moved on from. Nothing is a secret these days and scouting networks over here rarely find unheard of diamonds in the rough that no other club know about. Not only that, once a big English club comes calling, an agent for the player wouldn't be worth his fee if he wasn't then touting that same player around all the other big clubs in that league to see if he can start a bidding war or generate interest in the player from multiple clubs. That's not even an option in Germany as there's you, and nobody else to start a war with.
You keep trying to make equivalences between the BL and the PL that simply don't exist. You finished 3rd and 2nd... and then what? Fact is, you will never not be at the helm of your league with very short blips in between. That is not the same as the PL where the arms race continues unabashed and if you slip up, you could find yourself a mile outside the title-chasing pack for a long, long time unless your pockets are deep enough to bridge huge and quickly developed gaps.
Even your pressure is an unreality when compared. I would love to see what and how Bayern would address not one but two financially doped teams coming in and completing disrupting the natural order of things. A lot of the idealism you have would soon diminish, I bet.
Silly to you because your league is a completely different kettle of fish. You don't even seem to acknowledge how things work in England, but are ready to casually dismiss them. I don't get that. It's not about the PL being good or bad, either, it's about what it takes to accrue those 3pts game in and game out, and the costliness of not doing so in lieu of trying to develop youngsters who aren't yet ready.
You've also kind of completely glossed over how being able to do as you please in your home league readies players for the CL and gives them a confidence to go out there and do as they know they're capable of on a bigger stage - as I said before, we, as United, are... or were... totally familiar with the concept as we did it all through Ferguson's rein, but now, as things stand, we're paying a heavy price for trying to keep some of those traditions going. It's obvious to see that we've started to conform and buy in as and when we need to for inflated prices. Do you think Bayern would be any different if they went from the undisputed top dogs (see us) to one of many with the arrival of two of the richest clubs on the planet competing side-by-side with them?
You don't really expect me to answer to that? I've no idea how you managed to turn the perfectly valid question if 30m for Bony in the European market today is too much into a entensive cliché-driven nonsense rant against the Bundesliga, well done.
If City sign Bony he is far from a panic buy. It's the beginning of January. Fair enough if this was last minute on deadline day but the fact negotiations have started already suggest he is a player we have looked at for some time. Personally, while I do rate Bony highly, I would have preferred a younger striker like Lacazette. But the club will have plans for the next transfer windows in place and presumably signing younger players will become more pertinent soon, as will identifying which of the academy players can be expected to become first team players in the future.
The thing with Falcao is that at the beginning they didn't suit their game to him so I think that he actually improved later.
Still, I do think that Bony is a good player, let's he how good.
I'm glad he didn't end up at Chelsea. He'll do well with Silva but better with Hazard, Oscar and Willian.
He'd be a pretty good signing for city. Can see him forming a very good partnership with aguero with silva behind.
Sigh.
You've used the word nonsense more than once, whilst completely ignoring the rules of the market you're talking about whilst repeatedly comparing it to the BL and what Bayern would do in their idealistic utopia. And I'm the one using cliches?
And that's far from a rant. The unreality Bayern, as a major club, find themselves in is completely unique and as far removed from the arms races of the PL as possible.
Not a big fan of his overall ability, average touch and quite clumsy. Undoubtedly a goalscorer though so would expect him to do well if he gets a chance ahead of Dzeko/Jovetic
I'm not ignoring that at all, I just disagree that the rules exist the way you describe them. Completely. There isn't an isolated Premier League market completely seperated from an isolated Bundesliga market without a connection between them. This is simply not true, no matter how much you want it to be, so that all your made up stuff about Bayern and their unique role in football becomes true.
How is it not true? I asked you if the top clubs in the league are not supposed to make intra league deals anymore (because of the fact they are blatantly charged ridiculous fees) in favour of the global market, and you glossed over it. How do you believe it possible for a league to conduct itself where no money is being recycled from the top clubs down? The intra dealings of any league are vital for the life blood of that league. For the most part, big English clubs abide by that not because of some altruistic desire to help those less well off, but because it benefits them in a number of ways, too.
Let me ask you, or anyone else ridiculing the fee: how much do you think Bony is worth?
Since when? I've honestly never heard that before. Surely Swansea keeping their top striker and City signing someone from abroad would be better for the league? Youth development is the life blood for any league and if you fail to produce enough quality yourself, you buy from abroad and it always means money leaving the league, but there's nothing wrong with that. The success of the Premier League in the past decade was built on it.
I think the key thing is being proven in the competitions that City are competing in (so as to not be a complete gamble). To find a similarly low risk, proven striker abroad you'd be looking at forwards proven to score regularly in the Champions League. These would normally be strikers like Benzema, Falcao, Cavani, Rooney, RVP, Lewandowski, Ibrahimovic etc - these are player's that have shown for at least a few seasons they can score at the highest level; but would all cost well above the transfer fee and wages paid for Bony.
If City were looking at this market abroad the cheapest player's would be possibly the likes of Martinez at Porto or maybe Adriano at Shaktar. Both of whom would be in the same ball park as Bony and probably equally risky. A City fan earlier also mentioned Lacazette, who would also be similarly expensive and would be more of a risk.
City clearly do not feel they are in a position where they want to take hopeful punts. I'd be interested who you feel is more proven than Bony, who also wouldn't cost a similar fee? Possibly Mandzukic in the Summer?
Apparently city not willing to match the £30m valuation for Bony. I think they'll get their man but I reckon the price will be lower than £30m
They must have read this thread.
one of those players i like but wouldn't want us to sign. So I am not too bothered when he joins shitty.
We can't sign all good players just to prevent them from joining a rival and I think he would not fit into our team.
We can't sign all good players just to prevent them from joining a rival and I think he would not fit into our team.
Last edited:
I think the 'Premier League proven' tag is pretty overrated and one of the biggest reasons why many English top clubs wasted a lot of money in recent years. Instead of doing great scouting and looking for quality around the world, it's the easy way and it's clearly not working well, it's also incredibly expensive. The strong core of players who are carrying City to titles are Aguero, Silva, Toure and Kompany and none of them was signed from within the league. It's similar for Chelsea and their key signings in recent years. I'm not entirely sure how you went from Bony to the top strikers in the world, but maybe that's exactly the problem. Just because Bony has a good record in the past 18months at Swansea doesn't mean he's less of a risk for City than someone from a comparable club abroad. At least not longerm and I don't see how Bony is such a risk-free shortterm transfer now, when he leaves for the ACN soon and after that is dropped right into a completely new team midway through the season when you have to play 2 games a week all the time.
How many players bought from within the Premier League in the past 5 years actually had a big longterm impact at a top club in comparison to similar signings from abroad?
Regarding names, it's always difficult to suggest someone unless you know how the manager wants to use the player. Mandzukic for example is a completely different type of striker than Bony. If you have to choose between him and Bony, you don't necessarily choose the better individual but the better fit for the team, but in theory Mandzukic for €22m was obviously an interesting option in the summer. If you're forced to act quickly, especially in the January window, you always pay over the top, which in itself isn't necessarily a problem. It's just a bit silly to call it anything different than overpaying.
It depends. You can maybe get the player cheaper in june, but you have a bigger risk of not getting to your goals, so the player isn't really cheaper then?
Sometimes, but not always of course, it's like saying you can get a certain player much cheaper when he is 30, instead when he is 26, but that doesn't really help. Sometimes it's very similar during january transfer window(let's say we buy Strootman now for 35mil, instead of 30 in june, but he helps us get into the CL, so in the end it ends much cheaper for us getting him now, then not to get him, but missing on the CL and then get him for 30mil, and Bony could actually be a better example, even if he has a lot of question marks and biggest being ACN).
Just saw that Bony is looking for wages of 200k? 
Second. I think what confuses people is that on his day (Once a season) he'd put in an amazing performance and it reminded you why we signed him, then he'd be shite again the next week.
Anyway, despite what people think £30 million is the going rate these days for a player in the same division scoring 20+ goals a season. He isn't a signing that will strike fear into their opponents but he seems to be pretty handy to have.
I agree that the Premier League proven tag is often a false economy. However you look at Spurs' signings after they sold Bale and signing from abroad is more risky, particularly when the player hasn't had any experience at the top level. Again I'd be interested to hear the name of a player as proven than Bony in the competitions City are competing in, whilst costing significantly less?
You mention Aguero, Toure, Silva & Kompany; but apart from Kompany who was a gamble that paid off these are all £50m+ player's with £150k+ weekly wages in today's market. It would be like saying City should be looking at Koke, Pogba or Benzema. It's a completely different market to the Bony signing that they are currently making.
The fact that Bony has proven himself as a quality Premier League striker, means he is automatically a much safer bet. Does that mean that he is a guaranteed success? Of course not, but it does mean that the chances of him flopping are reduced. This is why the £30m for him isn't outrageous and this is why even Bayern are primarily going down this road, with their biggest signings being safe bets, proven in the top League's; the likes of Alonso, Benatia, Lewandowski, Gotze, Alcantara, Martinez & Mandzukic. Admittedly they have got good deals on many of these, but that is down to their contract situations.
That was the point from the start though. Good scouting and smart longterm planning means you get good deals and don't have to overpay when you react quickly to upcoming problems.
Obviously if the premise for the transfer is that you're looking for a shortterm target, instantly available and without any prior thought put into it, then Bony for 30m in January might be the best choice. It doesn't mean it's fair value for quality at all though, it means the club is forced to overpay because your longterm strategy sucks. And if most of your transfers go down like that, you waste a lot of money and fail to take advantage of the financial gap to your rivals, who simply do a better job overall. That was the point I made from the start. That's why clubs like Atletico and Dortmund reached heights that clubs with similar financial strength in the Premier League didn't in the past years.
You used Tottenham as an example, but it works for what I'm saying even better. Selling Bale as late as possible to maximise the money coming in and then being forced to play football manager and buy the most hyped available names around Europe was bad business. It doesn't look like there was any thought put into how the team would play, how they all fit into the ideas of the managers or if the hype is actually justified.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying English clubs shouldn't do any business in the Premier League at all, that would be stupid. Obviously buying from within the league has its advantages. January signings for ridiculous money as a quick reaction certainly won't help City to close the gap to the European top teams. Thanks to FFP, they have less money available than the likes of Real, Barca, Bayern, Chelsea and United and they have a significantly older squad than all those teams if I'm not mistaken. It's a bad longterm deal to buy Bony for that much money, unless I completely misjudge his quality of course, which isn't impossible. If he goes on to make the difference for the team and starts regularly as a worldclass striker, I happily admit that my comments here were wrong.
Is the deal even through yet? Maybe the whole discussion is totally pointless because City don't even want to pay that much
.Will be interesting to see how he performs in a team like City. He will probably just lose his form when not getting to play every week. Seem to be that kind of guy who easily gets fat.
Bit confused by this one. He's not really any better than Dzeko but for some reason City never really seem to fully trust him. Probably overspending by a bit but oh well, it's not like they can't afford it. What happened with Negredo anyway?
Aguero is hardly ever fit and Dzeko might leave eventually, he will get games.
After the honeymoon period got over for Negredo, he just couldn't do anything. Didn't score a goal during the entire second half of last season and was rightly packed off to Spain.
One question on this Bony transfer. Can they really buy him with all the FFP punishments and stuff?
He's on loan at Valencia and will likely remain there.
Only read the first page of this thread, but it appears, perhaps predictably, that everyone is saying that he's a waste of money and not that good. I even saw one comparison to Benjani, presumably due to both being physically similar - although Bony is much higher pedigree.
I don't see what more Bony has to prove. He's an excellent striker and has shown that on every platform he has played on. Definitely worth £25m-£30m in today's market for me.
I don't see what more Bony has to prove. He's an excellent striker and has shown that on every platform he has played on. Definitely worth £25m-£30m in today's market for me.
It's always been that way - top clubs in England will always raid smaller ones for talent they can use, so the smaller team keeping hold of their envied talent is not likely unless they are a Le Tissier-type who refuse to leave for whatever reason. Another thing that happens is tapping up and unsettling a player and then taking advantage of the fallout as the player then agitates for the move, which we might see with Bony this very window. If City are successful with that, they can chop a few million off what they'd otherwise have to pay as Swansea would then be left with a player who they know might be unfocused and have a lesser desire to play/perform for them.
Youth development was once the lifeblood of the league, but when the distanced academy rules were put in place, all of the purchasing from abroad went into overdrive and created the monster we now have on our doorstep. When we could bring in the top talents from around the country and develop them, we didn't look abroad even half as much as we have to do now. All that's happened inside of the league is that other clubs - clubs within the players living vicinity - do the nurturing and we, or another big club, pay a fortune for them further down the line. It's bad for us, but those academy rules have been a godsend for the smaller clubs who now get massive fees for their talents (see Southampton's academy and production line) rather than taking cases to tribunals where they would've got a pittance for the likes of Bale, Shaw, Walcott, Oxlaide-Chamberlin and so on and so forth.
People seem to be instinctively reacting to "30m for Bony" and considering practically nothing else. This could well be City actually taking their first steps to being financially prudent... but that's not being considered in the slightest. We'll see if this is part of a bigger strategy in the summer, and if it is, it won't look anywhere near as ridiculous as it's being painted as at the moment.That was the point from the start though. Good scouting and smart longterm planning means you get good deals and don't have to overpay when you react quickly to upcoming problems.
Obviously if the premise for the transfer is that you're looking for a shortterm target, instantly available and without any prior thought put into it, then Bony for 30m in January might be the best choice. It doesn't mean it's fair value for quality at all though, it means the club is forced to overpay because your longterm strategy sucks. And if most of your transfers go down like that, you waste a lot of money and fail to take advantage of the financial gap to your rivals, who simply do a better job overall. That was the point I made from the start. That's why clubs like Atletico and Dortmund reached heights that clubs with similar financial strength in the Premier League didn't in the past years.
You used Tottenham as an example, but it works for what I'm saying even better. Selling Bale as late as possible to maximise the money coming in and then being forced to play football manager and buy the most hyped available names around Europe was bad business. It doesn't look like there was any thought put into how the team would play, how they all fit into the ideas of the managers or if the hype is actually justified.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying English clubs shouldn't do any business in the Premier League at all, that would be stupid. Obviously buying from within the league has its advantages. January signings for ridiculous money as a quick reaction certainly won't help City to close the gap to the European top teams. Thanks to FFP, they have less money available than the likes of Real, Barca, Bayern, Chelsea and United and they have a significantly older squad than all those teams if I'm not mistaken. It's a bad longterm deal to buy Bony for that much money, unless I completely misjudge his quality of course, which isn't impossible. If he goes on to make the difference for the team and starts regularly as a worldclass striker, I happily admit that my comments here were wrong.
Is the deal even through yet? Maybe the whole discussion is totally pointless because City don't even want to pay that much
Bony is a player I would think a lot of the bigger clubs would find hard to ignore given his scoring rate and performances for Swansea are keeping him in the spotlight, so who's to say City haven't been keeping tabs on him and have decided to make their move now instead of in the summer? They need a forward right now, so he may well tick both their short and mid-term boxes in one fell swoop. I asked you how much you think Bony is actually worth, but you didn't respond... he's done nothing in Europe, so to an international club, he has it all to do and his valuation would understandably be a lot lower, but nobody is disputing that. As an intra-league purchase, however, he has to be one of the hottest properties as a gettable forward in the league, if not the hottest. I very much doubt City have bought him expecting him to be a world star or to set the CL alight, but in the PL, he could prove to be the difference between 2nd and 1st place, not only that, he may well buy them more time to get Aguero 100% fit, if not for the PL, then for the CL, which to City, has got to be worth its weight in gold alone. The more I've thought about this, the more I see positives to it that far surpass the negatives.
There seems to be a conflation between talking about Bony as an exorbitant purchase, and City's general practices - they're both thread-worthy discussions in their own right.
Wasn't aware it was a loan, thanks.
That was the point from the start though. Good scouting and smart longterm planning means you get good deals and don't have to overpay when you react quickly to upcoming problems.
Obviously if the premise for the transfer is that you're looking for a shortterm target, instantly available and without any prior thought put into it, then Bony for 30m in January might be the best choice. It doesn't mean it's fair value for quality at all though, it means the club is forced to overpay because your longterm strategy sucks. And if most of your transfers go down like that, you waste a lot of money and fail to take advantage of the financial gap to your rivals, who simply do a better job overall. That was the point I made from the start. That's why clubs like Atletico and Dortmund reached heights that clubs with similar financial strength in the Premier League didn't in the past years.
You used Tottenham as an example, but it works for what I'm saying even better. Selling Bale as late as possible to maximise the money coming in and then being forced to play football manager and buy the most hyped available names around Europe was bad business. It doesn't look like there was any thought put into how the team would play, how they all fit into the ideas of the managers or if the hype is actually justified.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying English clubs shouldn't do any business in the Premier League at all, that would be stupid. Obviously buying from within the league has its advantages. January signings for ridiculous money as a quick reaction certainly won't help City to close the gap to the European top teams. Thanks to FFP, they have less money available than the likes of Real, Barca, Bayern, Chelsea and United and they have a significantly older squad than all those teams if I'm not mistaken. It's a bad longterm deal to buy Bony for that much money, unless I completely misjudge his quality of course, which isn't impossible. If he goes on to make the difference for the team and starts regularly as a worldclass striker, I happily admit that my comments here were wrong.
Is the deal even through yet? Maybe the whole discussion is totally pointless because City don't even want to pay that much
I think this deal is mainly being done because of the injury crises at City at the moment. I believe they feel that Negredo and Dzeko will leave for £20m each in the Summer and believed that going into the season with Jovetic, Aguero & Dzeko was fine, considering they are happy to play with one striker. Now in a perfect world they'd have waited until the Summer, where more players would be available and consequently you'd get a similar player £5-7m cheaper. However with injuries it hasn't really worked out that way and the management probably realise that they're still in all main competitions and Bony could be the difference between winning the League and coming second (or winning the FA Cup, or progressing a round further in the CL).
The bolded is speculative though and can only really be answered in hindsight. If City win the League by a point and Bony scores 7-8 goals then it'll have been a great deal, likewise if they reach the semi's of the CL and he scores in the quarters. I think most people would accept that he's worth in the region of £23-25m, but the fact that he isn't cup tied is probably worth £2-3m and the fact that not many strikers are available in January in probably another £2-3m.
I agree with what you are saying though; planning is key. However you can't really plan around bad injuries, particularly to key player's (ask Liverpool with Sturridge!)
If we sign him, then the answer is clearly yes. The money for Negredo in the summer will cover most of the transfer anyway. Then we've got Nastasic, Guidetti and Sinclair left to sell.
Edit: Just read apparently City have £13m left to spend from the summer. Negredo's sale for £27m (24m transfer + loan fee) is already been included in FFP calculations, leaving us with £40m to spend this season before any more sales such as the players I've named.
If you sign him, you'll be 14m over FFP. Not sure if that includes Negredo's transfer next summer(I don't believe it does, though).
If it doesn't, it's obviously an easy enough number for you to drum up.