Oh good. because the thiago thing worked out just brilliantly.
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Oh good. because the thiago thing worked out just brilliantly.
I refuse to believe that this will/could end up badly. We're signing him and that's that. I'm not ITK or the anything, it's just suspension of belief.
Whats there to be undecided on a premiership proven, world class midfielder? And its not crazy money because Barca are willing to sell him according to reports.
I don't see what's so funny it's only my opinion. No doubt he would improve us but I'm just curious as to why Barca want to get rid of him? Regarding the fee I just think you have to be careful at times that you don't end up with a Torres situation. I don't think we should be going much higher than the Mata fee. Also he's never seemed that keen on playing for United and he'd be getting turfed out of his boyhood club so I just wonder what frame of mind he would be in. I'm not against us going for him at all I'm just undecided if he's the right player to go for especially if we only sign one midfielder this summer. If we got him plus another I'd be happy.
How often do you actually watch Barcelona? Honest question. 1 game in 5 or 6 in centre midfield, you must actually be joking! Under Tito he spent at least half a season playing centre midfield alongside Xavi, with Iniesta playing on the left. The same has happened in the big games under Tata this season, while in the run-of-the-mill games he's played most games in midfield alongside either Xavi/Iniesta. You're acting as if there's only one midfield spot when there's actually 3, with Cesc starting more games than Iniesta and Xavi.
I don't like the whoscored website but I'll use it anyway, it has a breakdown of Cesc's starting positions - 10 games as a sub, 10 games in the centre forward position (probably when Messi was injured), 25 (yes, 25) games in centre midfield. And that's only this season, as I said Barcelona played about half a season with him in the middle. Please, just stop saying this crap and I won't have to waste time correcting you.
Cesc has been statistically great this season, performances not so great. The position is not and never has been the problem though, it's his willingness to go direct, his inability to deal with teams that sit deep (giving him no room to play through passes) and his lack of pace. He's had far more games in centre midfield than you claim. I'm not saying he's a drastically worse player, he's still the same player who's just in a much less suited system than he was playing in before.
Wide attacker...feck me.
So many players available... we could spend a horrific amount of money and end up with something like:
Shaw, Kroos, Vidal, Sanchez and Benatia. What a list
Oh and keeping on topic... sod Fabregas.
Shaw, Kroos, Vidal, Sanchez and Benatia. What a list
Oh and keeping on topic... sod Fabregas.
No Pedro or Alba either.
If we're talking about this season, when they've changed their system somewhat, then that's a different matter. I was using figures from under Guardiola and Vilanova, the system and style of football which I was describing, and into which he was awkwardly squeezed. The reason for him struggling this season is much more obvious: the whole team has struggled. Martino tried to make the team more flexible, more direct, and it hasn't exactly worked. Despite this, Fabregas's stats from this season have been impressive, particularly the stats that count - goals and assists. I don't see that you have any grounds to criticise him based on this season, without also trying to tell me that Iniesta and Messi have also suddenly become worse players. There have been bad performances, yes - but again, the combination of decent results and bad performances has been true of the entire team all season. Hence why they were within a game of winning La Liga but Martino still 'resigned'. As for fans booing, Madrid's fans regularly boo Ronaldo. So that's how mu
Finally, I'm still waiting to hear any attempt at an answer to this point:
How often did you actually watch Fabregas at Arsenal? Honest question. (See how anyone can do that, because it's just a meaningless, diversional rhetorical device not an actual argument? Obviously I've seen plenty of Barcelona, both this season and previously. That's why I'm putting energy into this ridiculous argument.)
We'd definitely need another defensive CM along with Fábregas, but that doesn't stop him from being a CM IMO. He'd just be the more attack minded one out of the two. Kroos focuses more on dictating the flow of the game and is a safer passer of the ball, but defensively I don't rate him highly, just like Fábregas.
I disagree and think whatever team buys him to use as an out and out CM be that us or him moving into that position after Xavi retires will see he's not made for that position, which is what most Barca fans think anyway.
Why would we bid €53m when his buyout clause is €40m?
Woodward is going to the opposite route this year. Last year they wanted around 40-45m and we offered 25m and this year they only want 35-40m and we are offering 55m.
So, again, how to you explain him being the best CM in the Premier League before Barca bought him?
At least it will work this time around, right? Right?
Oh god, why remind me?
Yeah...did you not notice the part where I talked about how he played under Tito? Iniesta on the left, Cesc and Xavi in the centre. That was Tito's first choice 11. No wide attacker role, I'm not sure where you plucked that out of but Cesc has always played centrally at Barcelona, either as a false 9 or a midfielder. Under Guardiola it's more difficult - he didn't start as often and there were a lot of tactical variations (mainly 4-3-3 and 3-4-3), but even then he never played wide, they're not idiots...you can't play a snail on the wing.
His stats have been impressive, I agree. They always have been at Barcelona, especially in the first half of the season when he's performed better in every season since he made the switch, and possibly before that given Arsenal's regular lack of title run-in participation while he was there. I sighed reading that though, because again, I've never said he's become a significantly worse player, not once. He's not any worse, he's just not suited to their tactics, but his productivity will always be high because of his anarchic way of playing means he'll always go straight for the final ball. His time at Barcelona should be up, and I think the mistake they made was actually buying him, but what's done is done.
Still? The answer is in my previous post. "I'm not saying he's a drastically worse player, he's still the same player who's just in a much less suited system than he was playing in before."
Most players don't play at the same level after a transfer to a different club (for better or for worse). It doesn't mean they've suddenly become better/worse, it means they're performing differently in a different system playing with different players and possibly in a different league. Did Kagawa suddenly become a worse player when he joined Man Utd or did the same problems that affected Cesc affect him? Did Sahin suddenly become a worse player when he joined Liverpool?
Not as often as I've watched him at Barcelona (every single game), but enough to know what he was like - a brilliant player, great passer and vision, good enough for any team in the world that plays a style he can fit into i.e. not Barcelona.
Fabregas ? his buyout clause is at +100m.
Barca fans dont like him there as he's not as good as xavi. He's still a brilliant central midfielder, just most people don't view him or similar players as such because they are Spanish and their main strengths lie going forward. He's not as good in the hole as he is in center mid, where he can control games. He's not a defensive players, he's just a creative central midfielder who likes to go forward.
Also people need to look into van gaals style if they think we'd use fabregas as a defensive midfielder or in a midfield 2. Van gaal likes using a midfield trio and that's where fabregas excels, not even as the furthest one forward like mata would be but as the "central" midfielder.
Swap for Yaya me thinks. Would he still be classed as a home grown player?
Easy to explain, he never was.
Plenty of CM's aren't as good as Xavi and Barca fans don't whistle them. Secondly Fabregas is more attacking than both Xavi or Busquets who are adored by the Barca fans so it has nothing to do with him being Spanish and attacking being a characteristic they like. Him being Spanish doesn't dissuade me from seeing his abilities I hardly see how his nationality would get in the way of someone having an objective opinion on him.
It's not necessarily the nationality, it's just he's a fancy midfielder who has played plenty of great games as an attacking player so people assume that he can't do it in center midfield or he's not one, when he clearly is. Literally the exact same case with Thiago last season, people saying stupid shit like can he play in a midfield 2 when really, that doesn't mean anything as he's still better defensively then the likes of Cleverley or Giggs who we used there often over the years. Fabregas played in center mid for Arsenal at a young age for years, as part of a midfield 3. Just like he would if we were to get him. And he most definitely was the best midfielder in the league in his last 2 years probably.
He's not mainly an attacking midfielder or a #10 like some people on here seem to think, and he's definitely a world class midfielder who just isn't suited to Barca's style, because to be frank, not many players in the world are and you look out of place no matter how good you are. Just like they got rid of Yaya Toure because he wasn't suited to them.
Not to be a smartarse. But get a distinct feeling many people discussing Cesc didn't watch him from his pre-Barcelona 2003-2010 days because of statements like this :
I mean what even in the name of sweet baby jesus.
I mean what even in the name of sweet baby jesus.
He was absolutely the best cm in the league prior to moving to Barcelona.
Just give up man.
I thought this as well. I distinctly remember him shatting all over the league from CM, but after reading this thread I think I dreamt it all up.
I had the same dream btw, how eerie is that?
Cesc one of the best midfielders in the Premier League ever, who'd have thought it?
no sanchez either
Or Pinto
How do we know his release clause is €40m? I'd imagine it was at least double that.
I can't see why we would sign Kroos and Fabregas. They would need to have a defensive midfielder sitting behind them, which means leaving out Kagawa and Mata.
I don't think his release clause is €40m. €40m is the figure the Spanish papers are saying Barcelona would be willing to accept for Cesc e.g. http://www.marca.com/2014/05/19/en/football/barcelona/1400488431.html
I doubt they would. It's below his market value even if he's been relatively underwhelming for them.
If they're planning on a wholesale changes then I'd gladly take Sanchez and Fabregas.
I don't see how it is. They bought him for £35 million which could rise to £40 million with clauses. €40 million equates to roughly £33 million. Since they bought him in 2011, he's been below-par for three years and he's 27 now and can't be considered a young player with unfulfilled potential. Plus the selling club is always in a weaker negotiation position when they're actively looking to sell. Imagine how little we'll get for Young this summer. Even with inflation taken into account, I think it seems like a perfectly reasonable fee - for all parties actually.
They bought him well below his value then, I think pretty much everyone agreed on that. They bullied Arsenal into that deal which was disgraceful, open market he was worth £50m+ easily. I don't think he's regressed that much, they should easily recoup what they paid and more simply becacuse they got him for less than he was worth.
Young is a different case, he was a £10m for whom we inexplicably paid £18m.
Well someone is briefing all these journalists that €40m is the magic number. Ballague, who I know many on this board don't like, made the valid point that if Barcelona wanted to they could just say 'he's not for sale' and all the stories would go away.
He didn't play as a CM in those two seasons though, did he? Unless my memory fails me completely, he was more of an AM playing behind RvP, while the two spots behind him were occupied by Song/Wilshere/Denilson/Diaby.
I'm firmly in the camp that thinks we'd need someone a bit more physical/aggressive in midfield than Fabregas. We're better stocked on good passers/creative midfielders (Carrick, Kagawa, Mata) -- despite our uninspired showings last season -- than we are on ball-winners (Fletcher, Fellaini). Ideally, we'd get both types (or someone who's good at both), but I think Mata can offer most of what Fabregas can.
If they put him up for sale at €40m they are going to have at least 3 bids IMO. United and Arsenal will definitely bid and another club will surely move for him too. Not out of question that teams like Inter and Milan go for him in the process of rebuild (doubtful he'd go to either of them mind), then you have two of the richest English clubs that will probably take a look at him - both City and Chelsea could do with a player like Fabregas. Also, I fully expect Monaco and PSG to consider bidding as well.
There'll be competition. He'll go to Arsenal if they want €40m for him IMO, Wenger will take him even if they don't need him with Wilshere, Ramsey, Ozil and Cazorla at the club.
We haven't got a single player that is anywhere near as good as Fabregas is as an old fashioned number 8. Cesc went up against Viera in the 2006 Champions League, in a midfield 2, and won. Since then he's been firmly established as one of the best centre midfielders in the game. Fabregas was regarded as one of the best players in the Premier League long before his last two seasons at Arsenal.
The Spanish media are, at present, only linking United and Arsenal with Fabregas. I agree that other clubs might jump in if they think there is a real chance Cesc will leave Barcelona. That is why we should get an offer in quick and a deal done fast. Cesc is one player that we should not risk losing out on.
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If we can get this sorted prior to the World Cup then I think there's a chance. After World Cup it's done and dusted IMO, the only advantage we could potentially have here is by being early movers while Barcelona are in rebuilding frenzy and could consider any bids for their players to build up funds for the rest of the window (I imagine they have to sell before they buy beyond certain amount which cannot be too high given their recent expenses with Neymar).
Then we should convince Ramsey to join us.
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