Casemiro (Out)

[amolbhatia50k]

The manager wants the team to get the ball forward as quickly as possible so ongoing he would discourage them from doing it. Ten hag seems to play the risk/reward game. We will make mistakes and giveaways but sometimes on the flip side it will pay off

Don’t like that way of playing personally

Honestly it comes across as lazy and poorly thought out. As a big club you can’t just excel at counters - which we don’t either - and become utterly useless at stringing periods of quality possession. For me, you have to first nail the basics of cohesive football and being able to find each other collectively with ease. Ten Hag appears to have his head in the clouds with this idea that we can tear teams up in 3-4 passes - turning up our chaotic metre to a 100 in the process.

We need someone to teach us in valuing and excelling with the ball not to whatever this silly high risk reward no goals football is.

Casemiro’s passing the other day is a perfect example. He played a couple of lovely passes and cost us with some terrible ones. He’s obviously gone at this but why are we encouraging a poor passer like him to be some sort of maverick Bruno of the midfield? Becuase Ten Hah indulges it with his lame vision.

 

[sparx99]

The manager wants the team to get the ball forward as quickly as possible so ongoing he would discourage them from doing it. Ten hag seems to play the risk/reward game. We will make mistakes and giveaways but sometimes on the flip side it will pay off

Don’t like that way of playing personally

Unfortunately, you can't trade chances if you have worse finishing than the other team. Also, it is the total opposite of basically everything learned in football for the last 10-15 years.

 

[roseguy64]

Arsenal, Liverpool, City all had the same issue with players coming back late but have managed to not be terrible in the first 3 games. What did they do with their preseason that we didn’t?

Have better managers with better tactical setups.

 

[roseguy64]

It’s part of being a Manchester United player. You will be an international player with international match commitments. I think at one stage we had nearly a full team made up of international captains.

Yeah and that's a good thing.

 

[Plant0x84]

Have better managers with better tactical setups.

Simples.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Arsenal, Liverpool, City all had the same issue with players coming back late but have managed to not be terrible in the first 3 games. What did they do with their preseason that we didn’t?

They have much better players and are more mature teams. ETH is not a good manager.

 

[Irrational.]

I am convinced that we will only be consistently successful once the ghosts of the old administration are banished - Casemiro being one of them.

 

[Red_toad]

Romano saying he'll be moved on next summer in latest youtube vid.

 

[honirelandboy]

Think he'd do well if we switched to a midfield three in a proper system. Not with 6 players running straight at him. Ten hag has us setup to fail. Id like the trio of Casemeiro, Ugarte which would allow the likes of Dalot and Mazouri to get forward more. What do you do with Bruno then is the only question.

A 4-5-1 would work as well and stop leaving us been so open

 

[FreakyJim]

I am convinced that we will only be consistently successful once the ghosts of the old administration are banished - Casemiro being one of them.

Yes, along with Rashford, Bruno, Shaw and Maguire. I'd also add Onana and Antony to the mix.

 

[Shabby as she goes]

If he’d go to turkey on a loan and we’d pay half his wages, that would literally free up a salary that Rabiot would accept

I know their different positions, but I rather have
Mainoo-Rabiot-Ugarte-Collyer
than
Mainoo-Case-Ugarte-Collyer
For those 2 positions

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

If he’d go to turkey on a loan and we’d pay half his wages, that would literally free up a salary that Rabiot would accept

I know their different positions, but I rather have
Mainoo-Rabiot-Ugarte-Collyer
than
Mainoo-Case-Ugarte-Collyer
For those 2 positions

If all the Turkish clubs banded together they could pay half his wages, but beyond that scenario it’s not happening.

 

[Plastic Evra]

If all the Turkish clubs banded together they could pay half his wages, but beyond that scenario it’s not happening.

Galatasaray, maybe Fener could. Apparently they do shoulder some amount of Osimhen wages. After getting the Nigerian striker (plus the rest of their business) maybe they don't have the financial reserves for it, but in absolute terms 10m€ is not that outrageous for them.

 

[Sandikan]

The manager wants the team to get the ball forward as quickly as possible so no way that he would discourage them from doing it. Ten hag seems to play the risk/reward game. We will make mistakes and giveaways but sometimes on the flip side it will pay off

Don’t like that way of playing personally

I watched a video of some of our moves and we had way more attacking plays than I realised watching live. All of them fell through because of a terrible pass and then because everyone was so high up, Liverpool raced through like a freight train.

It did send me from totally thinking all is woeful to thinking imagine if even 50% of the time we could manage to make a 20 yard pass come off.

 

[Sandikan]

Unfortunately, you can't trade chances if you have worse finishing than the other team. Also, it is the total opposite of basically everything learned in football for the last 10-15 years.

You're right and reminds me of how I used to play chess. Tit for tat and generally deplete their armoury having sacrificed yours and wait for a chance to get 1 piece ahead.

Clearly when you meet even a remotely decent player the strategy falls to biscuits.

 

[Shabby as she goes]

The manager wants the team to get the ball forward as quickly as possible so no way that he would discourage them from doing it. Ten hag seems to play the risk/reward game.

I highly doubt he actually wants to play like that.

During his Ajax period he used to play possession based football with loads of triangles and combinations. And I guess you could argue his Ajax was more dominant in the Dutch league than united is in the PL.

But before Aiax, he was at Utrecht. There l, IIRC, he played a similar neat style of football. Control, possession-based and good combinations.

I mean, I’m aware of what happens on the pitch at United. But I’m pretty sure this is still not how he actually wants us to play. Why he doesn’t make amends to try to fix it, I guess that’s what puzzles us all

Perhaps it can be explained by open-heart-surgery theory from Rangnick. If you inherit the midfield he did (McFred + Bruno), neither of them fits the profile of his preferred midfield setup. I think this year, with Ugarte, we’ll see a different type of football. More possession-based and less open in midfield

 

[Irwin99]

I highly doubt he actually wants to play like that.

During his Ajax period he used to play possession based football with loads of triangles and combinations. And I guess you could argue his Ajax was more dominant in the Dutch league than united is in the PL.

But before Aiax, he was at Utrecht. There l, IIRC, he played a similar neat style of football. Control, possession-based and good combinations.

I mean, I’m aware of what happens on the pitch at United. But I’m pretty sure this is still not how he actually wants us to play. Why he doesn’t make amends to try to fix it, I guess that’s what puzzles us all

Perhaps it can be explained by open-heart-surgery theory from Rangnick. If you inherit the midfield he did (McFred + Bruno), neither of them fits the profile of his preferred midfield setup. I think this year, with Ugarte, we’ll see a different type of football. More possession-based and less open in midfield

He's said that though, that he can't (won't) play the way he did at Ajax because it's not United's DNA, that you have to be direct here, and that we want to be "the best transition team in the world". I can only assume that he's yet another manager that's looked at United's history and thought that they had to do things a certain way, which is a bit sad really, as I think we all wanted him to move towards a technical style of football after the previous managers.

The manager wants the team to get the ball forward as quickly as possible so no way that he would discourage them from doing it. Ten hag seems to play the risk/reward game. We will make mistakes and giveaways but sometimes on the flip side it will pay off

Don’t like that way of playing personally

I just wish we'd see more of the rewards for once . I don't like this style either.

 

[golden_blunder]

I highly doubt he actually wants to play like that.

During his Ajax period he used to play possession based football with loads of triangles and combinations. And I guess you could argue his Ajax was more dominant in the Dutch league than united is in the PL.

But before Aiax, he was at Utrecht. There l, IIRC, he played a similar neat style of football. Control, possession-based and good combinations.

I mean, I’m aware of what happens on the pitch at United. But I’m pretty sure this is still not how he actually wants us to play. Why he doesn’t make amends to try to fix it, I guess that’s what puzzles us all

Perhaps it can be explained by open-heart-surgery theory from Rangnick. If you inherit the midfield he did (McFred + Bruno), neither of them fits the profile of his preferred midfield setup. I think this year, with Ugarte, we’ll see a different type of football. More possession-based and less open in midfield

He’s literally told us last season he has no intention of getting united go play like Ajax.

Personally i would have got shot of him at that stage because im sure the possession football at Ajax is what we all envisioned

 

[DarkLord1984]

I am convinced that we will only be consistently successful once the ghosts of the old administration are banished - Casemiro being one of them.

I would tend to agree. We need to see all of the Glazer rot weeded out.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I watched a video of some of our moves and we had way more attacking plays than I realised watching live. All of them fell through because of a terrible pass and then because everyone was so high up, Liverpool raced through like a freight train.

It did send me from totally thinking all is woeful to thinking imagine if even 50% of the time we could manage to make a 20 yard pass come off.

Dude, you’re asking for the impossible.

 

[Shabby as she goes]

He's said that though, that he can't (won't) play the way he did at Ajax because it's not United's DNA, that you have to be direct here, and that we want to be "the best transition team in the world". I can only assume that he's yet another manager that's looked at United's history and thought that they had to do things a certain way,

He’s literally told us last season he has no intention of getting united go play like Ajax.

Personally i would have got shot of him at that stage because im sure the possession football at Ajax is what we all envisioned

Ok, missed that, thanks.
Quite a shame really indeed.

 

[greater wall]

Casemiro is trying to play like Tony Kroos. He should accept that is not his strengths and play a lower risk game. Ugarte by contrast plays very cautiously and rather give the responsibility to someone else to pass.
There was a very obvious pass to the right for the first goal mistake. There was no reason for a first time ball. A simple touch and pass would have sufficed and put United on the attack. The problem is that Casemiro thinks that he is better than what he is.

 

[Sandikan]

Casemiro is trying to play like Tony Kroos. He should accept that is not his strengths and play a lower risk game. Ugarte by contrast plays very cautiously and rather give the responsibility to someone else to pass.
There was a very obvious pass to the right for the first goal mistake. There was no reason for a first time ball. A simple touch and pass would have sufficed and put United on the attack. The problem is that Casemiro thinks that he is better than what he is.

Or he's been told to play it quickly.

Ten Hag seems to want us to play a get ball through to get a chance on goal within 10seconds style, which is why we always seem to have the full backs and other 2 centre mids miles up the pitch.

If its perfection it might come off, it it doesn't we have thr opposition flood through open spaces like last weekend.

 

[Mingus]

He’s literally told us last season he has no intention of getting united go play like Ajax.

Personally i would have got shot of him at that stage because im sure the possession football at Ajax is what we all envisioned

When it comes to what he actually means to say, I think a lot gets lost in his "Dutchness".

I think he assessed what we had under the Glazers and thought the only way to get this to work was to play to the perceived strengths of his squad at the time. This meant playing to Rashford and Bruno's skillset.

With the new setup in place I think he's been asked to reproduce his Ajax style of play, and he's convinced Ineos that this will take time to assemble more technical players.

Hence why Bruno, Rashford and Casemiro were up for sale if the right offer came in.

 

[LDUred]

He might work well with Ugarte. Time will tell. Casemiro does still have something to offer, I feel.

A lot of this is on Erik. He's not bolstered the midfield very well and last season he brought in Amrabat who did alright but wasn't really up to scratch in terms of his speed and press-resistance and various other aspects. He couldn't really have predicted Casemiro's drop off last season, but the midfield as a whole hasn't functioned because the players haven't complemented each other. Casemiro needs a partner like Ugarte in there.

Mainoo and Bruno should be competing for that one position in front of two midfielders. Against Ireland you could see how dangerous Mainoo was in those pockets of space, and that's where he needs to be playing.

Ultimately, that midfield needs to have more bite and Kobbie, while a top player technically, needs to be pressed further forward.

When you have players who are getting on a bit you need to be a little more flexible in how you cover for them and it can't just be on one player to provide a screen.

 

[DWelbz19]

Casemiro is trying to play like Tony Kroos. He should accept that is not his strengths and play a lower risk game. Ugarte by contrast plays very cautiously and rather give the responsibility to someone else to pass.
There was a very obvious pass to the right for the first goal mistake. There was no reason for a first time ball. A simple touch and pass would have sufficed and put United on the attack. The problem is that Casemiro thinks that he is better than what he is.

Casemiro may think he’s a better passer than he actually is, but it’s abundantly clear he’s 1. being indulged to play like this and 2. Actively encouraged to do so. It’s been clear since he joined.

You don’t go from being a 94% passing accuracy water carrier to suddenly drop down to 80% and trying 50 yard passes every single game.

See @Sandikan ’s post above. Ten Hag has little value for ball circulation and retention in the middle of the pitch — he wants his players to progress the ball very quickly. Our middle areas of the pitch are intentionally turnover city.

When it comes to what he actually means to say, I think a lot gets lost in his "Dutchness".

I think he assessed what we had under the Glazers and thought the only way to get this to work was to play to the perceived strengths of his squad at the time. This meant playing to Rashford and Bruno's skillset.

With the new setup in place I think he's been asked to reproduce his Ajax style of play, and he's convinced Ineos that this will take time to assemble more technical players.

Hence why Bruno, Rashford and Casemiro were up for sale if the right offer came in.

Nonsense and fantasy. He has no intention of setting up a midfield to control play and circulate the ball in a slower build up. His ideal is signing players off the ball counterpressers like Mason Mount, heavily relying on off the ball offensive threats like McTominay, and indulging creative but high volume turnover passers like Fernandes.

 

[cpresc]

Relax, we're one feasible signing (Wharton) away from a great midfield for years to come


STARTING
------------ Bruno ------------
Wharton --------- Urgarte



FUTURE
------------ Amad ------------
Mainoo --------- Kone



SQUAD
------------ Mount ------------
Eriksen ------------ Colyer

 

[CannibalSpectre]

Casemiro is trying to play like Tony Kroos. He should accept that is not his strengths and play a lower risk game. Ugarte by contrast plays very cautiously and rather give the responsibility to someone else to pass.
There was a very obvious pass to the right for the first goal mistake. There was no reason for a first time ball. A simple touch and pass would have sufficed and put United on the attack. The problem is that Casemiro thinks that he is better than what he is.

Do you not think this is by design? Casemiro wasn't tasked with this role at Real Madrid. He had Modric and Kroos for that. The fact he's doing it regularly at united surely should let one know that the coach expects him to.

You can bet your last penny that Ugarte will likely be asked to perform the same task despite not having the required skillset to do so

 

[DWelbz19]

Relax, we're one feasible signing (Wharton) away from a great midfield for years to come


STARTING
------------ Bruno ------------
Wharton --------- Urgarte



FUTURE
------------ Amad ------------
Mainoo --------- Kone



SQUAD
------------ Mount ------------
Eriksen ------------ Colyer

No, ta.

 

[golden_blunder]

As I’ve said, the current play seems to be that the ball is a hot potato

 

[Uncle Mainoo]

No, ta.

You’ll have to elaborate!! Wharton is quality.

 

[Idxomer]

Casemiro may think he’s a better passer than he actually is, but it’s abundantly clear he’s 1. being indulged to play like this and 2. Actively encouraged to do so. It’s been clear since he joined.

You don’t go from being a 94% passing accuracy water carrier to suddenly drop down to 80% and trying 50 yard passes every single game.

See @Sandikan ’s post above. Ten Hag has little value for ball circulation and retention in the middle of the pitch — he wants his players to progress the ball very quickly. Our middle areas of the pitch are intentionally turnover city.

Casemiro in the PL last season had 81.8% pass completion. His La Liga numbers in his last 3 seasons were 85%, 82.8% and 83.2. His passing hasn't dropped that much. He was a water carrier but his passing was never consistent. If you look at his indvidual games at Madrid, it wasn't that rare for him to have a game under 80% pass completion. I do agree that Ten Hag hasn't shown that he values ball retention at United but his role in Casemiro's demise has been greatly exaggerated.

 

[DWelbz19]

Casemiro in the PL last season had 81.8% pass completion. His La Liga numbers in his last 3 seasons were 85%, 82.8% and 83.2. His passing hasn't dropped that much. He was a water carrier but his passing was never consistent. If you look at his indvidual games at Madrid, it wasn't that rare for him to have a game under 80% pass completion. I do agree that Ten Hag hasn't shown that he values ball retention at United but his role in Casemiro's demise has been greatly exaggerated.

Oh wow, for some reason I had it in my head he was massively more accurate at Madrid. That’s surprising.