[Baneofthegame]

How are you going to work together as a team when your supposed focal point of possession performs like this?

This is what he does. Creating a couple chances a game does not make up for all his weaknesses and deficiencies.

The things in the video I have the problem with are his ability to keep possession under pressure with his back to the opposition, he can’t beat a man or shield it effectively at times and make the simple pass.

The through balls and balls over the top are part of his game and won’t come off every time.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I don’t think it must always be either this or that. Bruno has his strength and weakness, it’s up to manager to decide how he would utilize his strength on the pitch, or bench him if he thinks he would be detrimental to the overall team play.

Creativity/final balls - world class
Productivity - world class
Pressing - top class

Keeping possession - weak
Build up play - weak
Dribbling - average

 

[KikiDaKats]

So as a poster who's mainly concerned with possession football, after the Brighton game, you didn't discuss at all the midfielder who barely touched or passed the ball.

You instead went to the midfielder who got on the ball and made more passes than any other.

Bruno 84 attempted passes
McTominay 17 attempted passes

And its Bruno you look to for an explanation of why we don't keep the ball.

I don’t specifically think think this argument works here.

We lost control of the game, one can argue the person making the most passes is more accountable for that lack of control due to the right options not being taken.

McTom on 17 is an atrocious level of incompetence but he’d have lesser impact on control than Bruno with 84. The higher volume passer is more accountable for the direction of play,. This is very similar to the Carrick scenario and how slow our game got when he started aging. Rodri makes the most attempts for City and we see the importance of that to their game play.

 

[jadaba]

This whole chances created thing is overblown anyway, it's assists that really matter.
Chances created, Bruno passes the ball to Rashford on the wing, who takes a shot. Chance created.
How many assists does he have? The same as Eriksen.

It's an imperfect metric for measuring a player's creativity or contributions to the team, but assists are also limited as a proper measure. A player could gain an assist by playing a sideways pass to a teammate who does all the work and gets the goal. Similarly, a player could do all the hard work to set up a teammate who simply needs to tap it in, it's a chance created but a poor finish means his total assists number stays low.

 

[KikiDaKats]

This whole chances created thing is overblown anyway, it's assists that really matter.
Chances created, Bruno passes the ball to Rashford on the wing, who takes a shot. Chance created.
How many assists does he have? The same as Eriksen.

I’ve been complaining about this for a while now because most of those passes should have ended with Rashford, Greenwood or Antony creating chances for others instead of the poor decisions to shot.

Mainly the reason I don’t pay much stock to the chance creation arguments because Saka, Gnabry, Salah, Grealish, etc would have diluted those numbers.

 

[Greck]

This whole chances created thing is overblown anyway, it's assists that really matter.
Chances created, Bruno passes the ball to Rashford on the wing, who takes a shot. Chance created.
How many assists does he have? The same as Eriksen.

Maybe but also we don't actually have to discredit his elite chance creation stats to talk about his other issues. My problem with the other side is over-crediting it to excuse horrific possession versatility. It's not a surprise the squad almost perfectly mirrors all of his weaknesses. These are some very basic bare minimum technical skills needed to attain sustainability and on-ball consistency.

 

[Jeppers7]

Who's he taking all these numbers away from then Clearly we'd be smashing teams 4-nil because he's holding back the likes of Dalot, Reguilon, McTominay, Rashford and Garnacho from their 30-40 combined assists.

McT, Dalot won’t play when everyone’s fit. We might well progress the ball further and create overloads more regularly that don’t require a difficult pass. There’s more than one reason that Bruno creates more chances than most other players in the league in a team that struggles for goals than simply the attackers aren’t good enough and there’s more to performances than stats.

That being said by the content of your post you obviously hold him in an extremely high regard, so you won’t agree.

 

[Em765]

I just hope we will never again see Bruno on the right ever again.
We lose so much width, get so narrow, the whole shape goes wrong and we nullify what hes good at, similarly to playing Rashford at CF.
Those two are big errors by Ten Hag, playing them out of position.

 

[Marwood]

McTominay is only playing for us because of injuries. He shouldn't be anywhere near the team. Bruno is the captain and plays every single minute. That is the problem here.

McTominay has been playing consistently for us over the last 4 years.

But back to the Brighton game.

Who was the bigger problem regarding possession given the above stats?

Bruno or McTominay?

 

[RedDevil@84]

This whole chances created thing is overblown anyway, it's assists that really matter.

How would you get an assist if the finisher is poor and needs loads of chances before he can put one away?

 

[zaafi]

McTominay has been playing consistently for us over the last 4 years.

But back to the Brighton game.

Who was the bigger problem regarding possession given the above stats?

Bruno or McTominay?

McTominay started 10 PL games last season and a bit over 1000 minutes. That is not consistent. He also played because of injuries, not because he is good enough.

Why are you hung up over McTominay and Bruno against Brighton? They are both terrible players when it comes to possession, but Bruno has his uses, while McTominay doesn't. Bruno made more passes, but also had only 81% completion.

 

[ReparableTrack0]

We need to let Bruno do his thing (which he does very well btw) but compensate with the other players in the midfield setup. You need the other two midfielders to be good at possession and strong defensively. Casemiro and Eriksen aren’t the ideal fit. All 3 midfielders can’t lose possession at all times. This is what infuriates me the most about our team. It’s mind boggling that the manager (who was a former midfielder by trade) doesn’t see this.

 

[Marwood]

McTominay started 10 PL games last season and a bit over 1000 minutes. That is not consistent. He also played because of injuries, not because he is good enough.

Why are you hung up over McTominay and Bruno against Brighton? They are both terrible players when it comes to possession, but Bruno has his uses, while McTominay doesn't. Bruno made more passes, but also had only 81% completion.

Its a simple question. In the Brighton game who was more of a problem regarding possession. Bruno or McTominay?

 

[VivaObertan]

McTominay started 10 PL games last season and a bit over 1000 minutes. That is not consistent. He also played because of injuries, not because he is good enough.

Why are you hung up over McTominay and Bruno against Brighton? They are both terrible players when it comes to possession, but Bruno has his uses, while McTominay doesn't. Bruno made more passes, but also had only 81% completion.

That's higher than KDB's average pass completion...

 

[Marwood]

That's higher than KDB's average pass completion...

Also higher than Casemiro and Rashford's average. On par with Eriksen's average.

 

[zaafi]

That's higher than KDB's average pass completion...

Okay, so what are you implying? The issue isn't Bruno's erratic passing in itself. It is the combination of his many weaknesses together with it.

City fans don't mind De Bruyne's passing because he has no particular weakness. He is one of the best midfielders ever in the PL. If De Bruyne had as many weaknesses as Bruno combined with erratic passing, then he wouldn't be anywhere near the player he is.

 

[zaafi]

Its a simple question. In the Brighton game who was more of a problem regarding possession. Bruno or McTominay?

It is a useless question. What is your point here? That McTominay is a massive problem in terms of possession? Yes, he is. But everyone knows that and agrees, like with many of our other players. Bruno is the one player some posters are in denial, because he creates chances. Having control in midfield and building up consistent attacks is impossible with a player like Bruno in the team who kills momentum and simply isn't at the required level. Neither is McTominay, Eriksen or current version of Casemiro.

 

[VivaObertan]

Okay, so what are you implying? The issue isn't Bruno's erratic passing in itself. It is the combination of his many weaknesses together with it.

City fans don't mind De Bruyne's passing because he has no particular weakness. He is one of the best midfielders ever in the PL. If De Bruyne had as many weaknesses as Bruno combined with erratic passing, then he wouldn't be anywhere near the player he is.

You just used Bruno 'only having 81% pass completion' on Saturday as a stick to beat him with, when it's perfectly normal given his position and the the role the manager asks him to play.

KDB has weaknesses, as does every other player in the world. You make out that Bruno is some sort of maverick player that can only spam through balls in specific situations and offers nothing otherwise, when his performances (and statistics) for numerous managers in the Portugal NT and at Manchester United show an extremely versatile, hardworking, productive player who executes whatever task the manager asks of him.

On another note, you've posted in this thread thirty times since Saturday. I wouldn't even say Bruno was in the bottom 5 performing players vs Brighton (Dalot, Lindelof, Martinez, Casemiro, McTominay were undoubtedly worse... everyone else similarly average except Reguilon who was the standout). Why is your focus here?

 

[Jeppers7]

Just out of curiosity do people think Bruno has played well so far this season? I think 4 poor games 1 good.

which is about the norm in terms of performance from him, if not worse.

 

[Oranges038]

Just out of curiosity do people think Bruno has played well so far this season? I think 4 poor games 1 good.

which is about the norm in terms of performance from him, if not worse.

Luxembourg doesn't count.

 

[zaafi]

You just used Bruno 'only having 81% pass completion' on Saturday as a stick to beat him with, when it's perfectly normal given his position and the the role the manager asks him to play.

KDB has weaknesses, as does every other player in the world. You make out that Bruno is some sort of maverick player that can only spam through balls in specific situations and offers nothing otherwise, when his performances (and statistics) for numerous managers in the Portugal NT and at Manchester United show an extremely versatile, hardworking, productive player who executes whatever task the manager asks of him.

On another note, you've posted in this thread thirty times since Saturday. I wouldn't even say Bruno was in the bottom 5 performing players vs Brighton (Dalot, Lindelof, Martinez, Casemiro, McTominay were undoubtedly worse... everyone else similarly average except Reguilon who was the standout). Why is your focus here?

My focus is here because some of you argue against me. So I reply back. Out of all of our players, there are only a few of them that have any business being part of an elite team. Bruno is not one of them. Look, mate. I don't understand how it's so hard for you to grasp, but he is 30 next year and has won feck all. He is a decent player who is excellent at creating chances, but not much else. He runs around a lot and is never injured which is fantastic, but building a team with him as a focal point of possession is ridiculous. Look at the other teams that play with number 10s, and look at their particular skillset. They're not chaotic, mindless players who instantly give the ball away. He has created a ton of chances, but he sure as hell have denied a ton too by giving it away or being dispossessed.

Tell me, if Bruno is such an amazing player, why does he consistently perform mediocre, and awful in almost every big game?

The majority in this thread wants to get rid of him. Why would we want to get rid of a player that is supposedly world class? Did anyone want Keane, Scholes, Giggs or Cantona to feck off?

 

[Marwood]

It is a useless question. What is your point here? That McTominay is a massive problem in terms of possession? Yes, he is. But everyone knows that and agrees, like with many of our other players. Bruno is the one player some posters are in denial, because he creates chances. Having control in midfield and building up consistent attacks is impossible with a player like Bruno in the team who kills momentum and simply isn't at the required level. Neither is McTominay, Eriksen or current version of Casemiro.

I ask the question because if you can't (and you haven't) simply answer "McTominay" is shows us there's a huge bias at play here.

I just find it odd after the Brighton game the midfielder you hammer is Bruno. Barely anything from you on the other three.

"Only 81% pass success rate"

 

[zaafi]

I ask the question because if you can't (and you haven't) simply answer "McTominay" is shows us there's a huge bias at play here.

I just find it odd after the Brighton game the midfielder you hammer is Bruno. Barely anything from you on the other three.

"Only 81% pass success rate"

I already said Casemiro needs replacing next summer and I don't even care enough about McTominay. He is not a key player in this team, while Bruno is. Eriksen is only a back-up, and a decent one when managed correctly. Surely you're not this daft?

Yes, only 81%. Do you think that is a lot or something? It would be okay if he actually produced something, but he didn't.

 

[Jeffthered]

As i said, it's either ETH leaves or Bruno leaves. The center will not hold anymore. You can't be a modern team with a Bruno as a main player+captain.

ETH needs to be brave enough to bin him. Countinho, Joe Hart, Kane were all main men in their teams after binning them off the team took a giant leap forward.

We will beat around the bush but we need a better midfield to compete against all EPL teams + all superior European teams.

People will not agree but in 3 years time, I'm sure we (all the guys who want Bruno gone) will be vindicated.

I think this is a decent post, worth thinking about. I'm inclined to agree that Bruno cannot be treated as 'undroppable' and I think that's another issue ETH has to address (which he created, not the Glazer's etc ..) Pep dropped Ageuro, and eventually replaced him. He dropped KDB, only last season, and KDB is pretty much the best player in the Premiership.

Klopp takes off Mo Salah, it's no longer a surprise.

But ETH and Bruno? Seems to be some huge problem, and this is what will cause ETH so many problems. What do you think the other players think? If we can see it, you don't think they can?

 

[Marwood]

I don’t specifically think think this argument works here.

We lost control of the game, one can argue the person making the most passes is more accountable for that lack of control due to the right options not being taken.

McTom on 17 is an atrocious level of incompetence but he’d have lesser impact on control than Bruno with 84. The higher volume passer is more accountable for the direction of play,. This is very similar to the Carrick scenario and how slow our game got when he started aging. Rodri makes the most attempts for City and we see the importance of that to their game play.

That's just such twisted reasoning to me. It's almost manufacturing a way of blaming Bruno.

The only way this would be true is if Bruno was misplacing passes left right and centre but he wasn't.

How can a midfielder getting on the ball more than any other, making more passes than any other, be more responsible for a lack of possession than his midfield mate who barely touches the ball and didn't make a tackle.

Similar analogy. You've got two strikers. One is having a go at least. Getting shots on target. One is refusing to shoot at all. How do you blame the first guy before the second for a lack of goals?

 

[Marwood]

As i said, it's either ETH leaves or Bruno leaves. The center will not hold anymore. You can't be a modern team with a Bruno as a main player+captain.

ETH needs to be brave enough to bin him. Countinho, Joe Hart, Kane were all main men in their teams after binning them off the team took a giant leap forward.

We will beat around the bush but we need a better midfield to compete against all EPL teams + all superior European teams.

People will not agree but in 3 years time, I'm sure we (all the guys who want Bruno gone) will be vindicated.

What else happened after Coutinho left that might have contributed to their success?

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Don’t bother mate. You’re locking horns with the most tedious dullards on redcafe. They will spam the shit out of this thread until you’re completely broken and just can’t be arsed with continuing the discussion. Then lurk on here waiting to chew up and spit out the next poor bastard who commits the crime of thinking Fernandes is quite good at football.

Can't say I'm surprised by the usual suspects spamming the thread with the same old shite whenever we lose, even after a game where he was instructed to play CB for most of the second half. I'm just grateful I don't sit near any of them at Old Trafford. The guy two rows behind me who shouts at the ref the entire game is far more preferable than listening to some of these lot in the caf who would be constantly whinging at Bruno for giving the ball away too often.

 

[zaafi]

Can't say I'm surprised by the usual suspects spamming the thread with the same old shite whenever we lose, even after a game where he was instructed to play CB for most of the second half. I'm just grateful I don't sit near any of them at Old Trafford. The guy two rows behind me who shouts at the ref the entire game is far more preferable than listening to some of these lot in the caf who would be constantly whinging at Bruno for giving the ball away too often.

Can't wait for your excuses after his performance against Bayern München.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Can't wait for your excuses after his performance against Bayern München.

Spoken like someone who actually looks forward to seeing a bad performance from United's captain just so they can say 'I told you so' in the subsequent days.

 

[Ubik]

Spoken like someone who actually looks forward to seeing a bad performance from United's captain just so they can say 'I told you so' in the subsequent days.

Such a strange way to be a fan.

 

[zaafi]

Spoken like someone who actually looks forward to seeing a bad performance from United's captain just so they can say 'I told you so' in the subsequent days.

I've been watching Bruno for years in Champions League, Europa League and against the big teams in Premier League. He has performed decent in maybe two or three games, and the rest he has been either terrible or mediocre. I know what to expect. Let's be real here.

 

[KikiDaKats]

That's just such twisted reasoning to me. It's almost manufacturing a way of blaming Bruno.

The only way this would be true is if Bruno was misplacing passes left right and centre but he wasn't.

How can a midfielder getting on the ball more than any other, making more passes than any other, be more responsible for a lack of possession than his midfield mate who barely touches the ball and didn't make a tackle.

Similar analogy. You've got two strikers. One is having a go at least. Getting shots on target. One is refusing to shoot at all. How do you blame the first guy before the second for a lack of goals?

I wish I can blame Bruno for that performance. I’m one of a few that believe he had an alright game.

My point was with that volume of passes made and did not bring us back control, the fella in hiding can’t even be considered in that conversation. Or whatever he was doing with those passes did not have the desired effect.

Scott did not refuse to pass, he chose to abstain from involvement.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Both can’t happen because for the latter to happen, we need to keep and move the ball around better, and for Bruno to top our creativity stats - he needs to look for a striker almost everytime he gets the ball.

You watched the game on Saturday. Do you honestly think Bruno could play for the team in blue? Why is it so hard for people to grasp that above any individual, the idea should be to create a cohesive unit that creates chances by making the right decisions and movement over and over? Surely, as a team, we want to get to a level where we can pass and move around teams at an elite level? Brighton scored TWO goals against us on Saturday that involved them moving the ball from back to front with more than 20 passes. The final ‘assist’ could have been made by anyone, they were not highlight reel curved/lobbed passes in behind from 30 yards. They were situations where the whole team worked together to engineer numerical advantages and work the goalscorer into a clear shooting opportunity in our penalty box.

Do you think that happens CONSISTENTLY in a team with Bruno in it based on the decisions he makes on the ball? And if not, do you see it as so long as Bruno gets his x.A numbers up, it is somehow of greater value to the team?

People love to compare Bruno to Kevin based on numbers. Then there’s ‘we played without him one time 4 years ago, look how that went’. City’s system is the bigger creator than Kevin, and now he’s out injured, they are not falling apart. If Haaland got injured, they would still score the most goals. They are not reliant upon someone literally trying to create all the goals for their team via brilliant passes. That’s not how top football works, it’s a team game.

I’ve been having this argument on here for many years and while it’s been met with so much resistance, surely, at some point the proof is in the actual pudding? For all the chances Bruno’s style creates for him, it has and never will be enough for us. We are also outplayed by good teams frequently. Then we come onto Redcafe straight after and engage in arguments that insist that what we’re saying is wrong, if only strikers took every chance then we’d win titles. Cool, let’s keep Bruno around until we find a striker, or three, that takes every chance. Perhaps that is a better, more sensible plan than what others have been suggesting which is to take the more measured approach and increase out control and also quality of chances in games.

Perhaps it needs to also be said, nobody needs to be presented with any chance creation stats for Bruno. Ever again. Je can have them, they are not the topic of debate, and nobody denies that he creates a large amount of chances personally. Once we agree on that, we can now look at his role in the context of us having never been quite good enough as a team, and why we can’t control games. Ultimately, we haven’t won anything of note, and don’t look likely to either. So the question is, do we just need a 50 goal striker or is the solution more than that?

Firstly, I haven’t lost anything, and secondly, your ‘strawman’ argument is completely wrong. The idea is not to drop Bruno and put one of the subs on. The argument has always been to rebuild the team on different foundations and principles than relying on a gun-slinger at the heart of it - training and buying players to play in a way that is not suited to Bruno’s strengths.

Of the other players you mentioned, half of them don’t even play anyway, and I find it ridiculous that a Bruno defender would be listing Rashford as a problem anyway. After all, ‘he scored 30 goals’.

I don’t even think I’m going to give people the benefit of the doubt of ‘misunderstanding’. The point has been made a million times in a million ways, and I suspect yourself and others have chosen, wilfully, to decide that what is being proposed is to simply drop Bruno and play Fred or whoever instead. I’ll say it again for clarity - Bruno doesn’t need to be dropped, he needs to be sold. And it’s not about ‘Bruno out, player x in’, so that we can both analyse how Bruno compares to player x, it is ‘stop playing reactive, percentage football and move towards playing controlled and structured football.’ That in itself equals ‘Bruno out’ by default. The day we decide we are ready to try and build a top team again and play like one, Bruno will be gone, and until then, we will at best continue to fall a little bit short and at worst, woefully short, regardless of who we sign to replace Scott McTominay. We can keep arguing this for years and years, while football moves on, the better teams start looking even more superior to us and the teams behind us continue to get their acts together and get closer to us. Meanwhile, you guys cling on to your one player/Messiah and continue to cherish our every assist. The best/only response we can possibly have to being embarrassed is to ‘try harder’ next game. Add a bit more ‘fight’. ‘Passion’. That’s the extent of what we are. We saw that on Saturday. We started with a ‘reaction’ from our last defeat, which basically consisted of ‘energy’. But then the superior football team just took a step back and passed the ball around us.

People can keep listing Martial, Rashford, McTominay, or whoever and convince themselves that if they were just a little bit better, we’d be able to beat Welbeck, Lallana, Gilmour and Groß - because of course - the problem is nothing to do with how we play, it’s that our players just aren’t good enough, except Bruno, because he can prove it with chance creation numbers.

What needs to change is our football, and nobody encapsulates the disorganised chaos of our play more than our captain. We’ll continue to argue - we’ll continue to spend 100s of millions on replacing the others as you suggest, and we’ll continue to fall short. And by the looks of things, you will continue to wonder why.

I absolutely loved these two posts. Couldn’t have been worded any better.

Honestly for me the only logical response to this is - I dont trust us to buy better players and build a better performing team without Bruno. So yes, id rather see a dysfunctional team with moments of brilliance than an overall bad team.

KDB gets brought up so much in this thread, if Bruno created more than a player who is unarguably better than him, surely then that says Brunos creativity isnt as important as KDBs other qualities?

 

[zaafi]

I absolutely loved these two posts. Couldn’t have been worded any better.

Honestly for me the only logical response to this is - I dont trust us to buy better players and build a better performing team without Bruno. So yes, id rather see a dysfunctional team with moments of brilliance than an overall bad team.

KDB gets brought up so much in this thread, if Bruno created more than a player who is unarguably better than him, surely then that says Brunos creativity isnt as important as KDBs other qualities?

This. I honestly don't get how some of the posters don't get this. They love to compare his chance creation to De Bruyne, but don't consider why De Bruyne is one of the best midfielders to have played in Premier League, and Bruno isn't. It's not because he creates chances, but because KdB is a complete midfielder with many strengths, and no particular weakness. I mean, Pep even benched De Bruyne for some time, and some are deluded enough to think he would play Bruno if he had him.

 

[Ubik]

It feels kind of bizarre to be that invested in the Bruno vs De Bruyne thing given the cavernous gulf in quality throughout the rest of the teams. We haven't had a functional striker below the age of 35 in years, we've spent more on failed right wing options than the value of Brighton & Hove Albion, and for some reason decided many years ago that central midfielders that can pass are a nouveau-riche vulgarity. Yeah no-one should be undroppable etc, let's focus on getting more players that are actually startable first.

 

[Marwood]

I already said Casemiro needs replacing next summer and I don't even care enough about McTominay. He is not a key player in this team, while Bruno is. Eriksen is only a back-up, and a decent one when managed correctly. Surely you're not this daft?

Yes, only 81%. Do you think that is a lot or something? It would be okay if he actually produced something, but he didn't.

You've just spent 3000 posts telling us its not about producing an assist or goal, its about possession.

Now when its pointed out his possession stat was decent against Brighton, you say he has to produce something to be ok.

All over the place.

 

[zaafi]

You've just spent 3000 posts telling us its not about producing an assist or goal, its about possession.

Now when its pointed out his possession stat was decent against Brighton, you say he has to produce something to be ok.

All over the place.

Mate, do you read what you are saying here?

It is about everything, and in the Brighton match, Bruno was terrible in possession and didn't produce anything.

Since when is 81% pass completion a decent stat for a midfielder? Some tragic standards you've got

By the way, possession isn't only about pass completion. He did nothing of note with the ball.

 

[Bwuk]

He’s really due us a performance vs Bayern.

He’s the captain. He needs to lead by example.

 

[frostbite]

Is he going to play left back?

 

[ClassOf'99]

Mate, do you read what you are saying here?

It is about everything, and in the Brighton match, Bruno was terrible in possession and didn't produce anything.

Since when is 81% pass completion a decent stat for a midfielder? Some tragic standards you've got

By the way, possession isn't only about pass completion. He did nothing of note with the ball.

I'm going to pose the question, as I'm not in either camp as I find Bruno frustrating as hell sometimes, especially in our own half or under pressure, but he can also produce moments/passes with world class vision and his passion to press for me alleviates some of my frustrations as EtH wants us to be a high transitions team.

But I digress, who or how do we replace Bruno in your opinion? In my opinion we need a full rehaul in midfield but I'm refusing to comment on this until I see Case/Amrabaat/Bruno or Mount play together, while also hoping EtH reins in Rashford to look for better options in the final 3rd that could & should see our chance creation turn into goals.