If it's Canada though then we're back into the Irish border being an issue. They really don't have many options available, and even fewer that resolve the border problem.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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If it's Canada though then we're back into the Irish border being an issue. They really don't have many options available, and even fewer that resolve the border problem.
But it can't keep markets calm for too long, the institutions I mentioned can't wait forever, they have got to know what to do and they will make decisions.
There is no choice, there never has been, other than either it's customs union and open NI border or closed and WTO.
It's not a question of the people being happy or not and whether Brexit is right or wrong but to continue to pretend that you can have an open NI border and be able to conduct your own deals is pure lies.
Exactly, when I refer to British people I mean all British people, not just white Christians as some people think.
There are racists and xenophobes in all countries and all religions and all ethnic backgrounds.
How many brown skinned Polish or Bulgarian people are there in the UK then?
I would love someone to tell me which language I can speak in and then I would really be unpleasant.
The problem is that the Brexiteers promised they could get the benefits of soft Brexit, which beating the jingoistic drum of Nationalism - so no bloody foreigners, and certainly no European courts and regulations.. but you can't have the free market/customs without the oversight and freedom of movement.
You're obviously right, what 'we' means shouldn't be ambiguous, but different people certainly have their own interpretation. Davis was showing his knowledge and understanding of the Brexit process once again, calling for the 'Canada plus, plus, plus' deal to be signed upon leaving, when negotiations will be just starting when we leave. I guess we go WTO in the interim at least by default.
So David Davis thinks that publicly stating he might renage on any deal is good preparation for entering into protracted trade negotiations with multiple countries....
What a muppet!
Will he be telling the EU that the "cheque is in the post"?
What a muppet!
Will he be telling the EU that the "cheque is in the post"?
Amazing how publishing any kind of information about what we actually want from the negotiations or anything about potential impact is seen as 'damaging our negotiating position', but acting like some kind of rogue nation doesn't..
When will Davis realise that we need the deal more than they do- so swallow your pride, get on with getting whatever little you can from it and hope the knuckle draggers are too distracted by Eastenders or X-factor to notice that anythings changed.
/talkingthecountrydown
Maybe he's busy chatting with this guy again?...
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-with-steve-bannon-in-london?CMP=share_btn_tw
We don't have a deal, we have agreed to a huge pay off fee providing we get a favourable trade deal. There's no point in paying the EU a huge pay off for a poor trade deal. If there's not a favourable trade deal we don't pay the divorce pay off, it's simple negotiation. The pay off divorce fee is simply a dangling carrott during negotations, it's no obligation to the UK otherwise.
I am pretty sure that the EU made sure that they tied the UK on these obligations. Till now the EU had been winning one battle after another, there's nothing to suggest that the UK can outwit the EU on this detail.
It's an international trade deal, who are they going to appeal to if the UK doesn't honour the deal, the European Court of Human Rights? Davis is correct in that the EU can't strike a divorce deal and then think they can offer a worthless trade deal with any chance of having the UK honouring the divorce payments in any settlement.
I've just managed to watch the whole Marr interview. Either Davis doesn't understand one thing about what is happening or he is lying about every detail. I thought Johnson was incompetent, this surpasses even him.
You wouldn't buy a second hand car from this lot, never mind do a trade deal. How the hell does he get away with this.
It's not. The trade deal isn't being negotiated yet.
We're currently talking about current financial obligations to the EU for past commitments which we jointly agreed to. Once we agree on that, there are a million questions to answer before the EU will then discuss trade.
If we have agreed regulatory alignment then getting access to the single market and customs union will be more straightforward, though it will mean oversight from EU courts
and open migration, plus additional financial contributions to the EU.
Yep, I've no idea if he is super-lazy, as the persistent rumour suggests, or a moron. Maybe a combo of the two. I'm just writing up his interview for our news alert in the morning. I normally always try to write everything dead straight, but I think this may be somewhat barbed- will rile some of our readers and get a reaction though.
As an investment mag, our readers are predominantly Tory-voting late 40 to early 50-something white wealthier individuals running money.
Don't envy your job, does he realise that being idiotic or a downright liar might wash with the public but it won't wash with businesses, banks and investors nor with the EU. I still can't believe I watched what I did.
I can't figure out if he's lying or just inept. I'm also not quite sure which is more worrying.
This gem of a headline fits best in here.
Snowflakes force Britain First to cancel their rally in Belfast
'Golding said: ‘Unfortunately because of this snow storm that’s causing chaos at airports we’re not going to be able to make it over to Belfast today.'
http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/10/snowf...el-their-rally-in-belfast-7146914/?ito=social
Snowflakes force Britain First to cancel their rally in Belfast
'Golding said: ‘Unfortunately because of this snow storm that’s causing chaos at airports we’re not going to be able to make it over to Belfast today.'
http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/10/snowf...el-their-rally-in-belfast-7146914/?ito=social
Since time immemorial most decent political leaders in the world has governed through something called reputation and legal claim. The medieval world called it casus belli. Before the agreement the money the UK owed the EU was a grey area. I suspect that the EU has learnt from its mistake of trusting the UK and made such commitment in writing. If the UK now bails out than the EU is free to use tactics that the Brexiters call vindictive without hindering its own reputation in the process. That may mean, that the UK will find it hard to fly its own planes over Europe, goods will get stuck at Dover for hours if not days, UK company will be submerged in ridiculous expenses and beurocracy just to sell their services in Europe
There's a reason why the likes of Davies, Johnson and co had toned down. The UK is in a no win situation here. It can either pay its bills or the EU will recoup the money thanks to the massive exodus of companies fleeing a pariah country who can't honour its dues.
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This noble continent, comprising on the whole the fairest and the most cultivated regions of the earth; enjoying a temperate and equable climate, is the home of all the great parent races of the western world. It is the fountain of Christian faith and Christian ethics. It is the origin of most of the culture, arts, philosophy and science both of ancient and modem times.
If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance, there would be no limit to the happiness, to the prosperity and glory which its three or four hundred million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that have sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations, which we have seen even in this twentieth century and in our own lifetime, wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.
And what is the plight to which Europe has been reduced?
Some of the smaller States have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas a vast quivering mass of tormented, hungry, care-worn and bewildered human beings gape at the ruins of their cities and homes, and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new peril, tyranny or terror.
Among the victors there is a babel of jarring voices; among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair.
That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient States and nations, that is all that the Germanic Powers have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide.
Indeed, but for the fact that the great Republic across the Atlantic Ocean has at length realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve their own fate as well, and has stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor.
They may still return.
Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today.
What is this sovereign remedy?
It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.
We must build a kind of United States of Europe.
If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance, there would be no limit to the happiness, to the prosperity and glory which its three or four hundred million people would enjoy. Yet it is from Europe that have sprung that series of frightful nationalistic quarrels, originated by the Teutonic nations, which we have seen even in this twentieth century and in our own lifetime, wreck the peace and mar the prospects of all mankind.
And what is the plight to which Europe has been reduced?
Some of the smaller States have indeed made a good recovery, but over wide areas a vast quivering mass of tormented, hungry, care-worn and bewildered human beings gape at the ruins of their cities and homes, and scan the dark horizons for the approach of some new peril, tyranny or terror.
Among the victors there is a babel of jarring voices; among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair.
That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient States and nations, that is all that the Germanic Powers have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide.
Indeed, but for the fact that the great Republic across the Atlantic Ocean has at length realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve their own fate as well, and has stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor.
They may still return.
Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today.
What is this sovereign remedy?
It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.
We must build a kind of United States of Europe.
To be fair, not paying this £Xbn settlement is our only card in the negotiations. Of course the Govt is going to threaten to use it. If its legal or not i have no idea..
If that is what he wants it means bailing out the Greek government.
It goes totally against the British patriotism and sovereignty, I dare to say he's a traitor to the UK and all Europe right?
If we want to be an economic pariah with no credit rating and a business reputation like Greece, then sure we could not pay our bills.
I can't decide whether they're lying to the Eurosceptics or the EU. If its the EU then we're utterly, utterly fecked.
As i have said, ive no idea of the legality or otherwise. The credit rating angle is interesting - it would certainly be messy!
While the commitments have a legal existence, as far as I can remember there is no legal recourse for the EU. They can't force anyone to pay and that's true for all countries, in that scenario the UK can just pretend that they don't have the money. The problem now is that it damages your reputation at every level and it's a big problem for businesses, international organizations and other countries.
I dont think there is any doubt the UK will pay an exit bill, which of course isnt really an exit bill at all but a settling up. The question is the amount. If the trade talks dont go well and the whole thing breaks down in acrimony I can see the UK refusing to accept the EU's calculations of what we owein which case it might insist on an independent arbiter calculating the cost of the UK's liabilities.
I could be wrong, but I think the fact we've agreed in principle to make payment (which I'm assuming specified the areas we're accepting responsibility for) would basically torpedo any attempt later to suddenly claim we don't bear responsibility.
It shouldn't matter anyway, the last thing we could afford is a credit rating collapse and the EU potentially pissed enough to initiate some kind of trade war. The EU is still in the mindset of trying to get an equitable deal, but there's only so far we can push them before they just say feck it and give the country the real punishment beating the likes of the Mail have been claiming.
No but that's what Im saying, there wouldnt be an attempt to claim we dont bear responsibility, there would be a disagreement about the actual amount. I get the impression the EU is making assumptions in the calculation of the amount that ensures the payment amount is high - as you would expect. I imagine if the UK was left to calculate the figure it would also be much lower than the independent calculation. The UK might agree to go along with a higher payment if it sees it as a price to pay for a good trade deal. But if it isnt getting the trade deal it wants the UK is likely to turn around and say the number the EU has come up with is fantasy, it will pay but it wants an independent calculation of the amount. That doesnt sound unreasonable or particularly unlikely to me, I doubt it would affect our credit rating or anything like that if we made it clear we were happy to pay as long as we knew we were paying the right amount. But it wouldnt come to that unless the negotiations had already turned sour and there was nothing to lose - in terms of our relationship with the EU - by doing that.
David Davis said:
For fecks sake..
Isn't that the point od whats been undertaken though? We'v agreed the principles for what we owe to a sufficient amount that there is no room for such ambiguity.
Not a chance in hell we walk away without paying what we owe. Its just the Tories using it as a slogan to appease the brexiteer masses.
Christ on a bike, I guess he will be the Donald Trump of it all.
I suspect Davis will come to regret slapping Hammond over it. I'm intrigued to see what Hammond comes out with when he's inevitably asked. Last I checked the Chancellor is still a much more senior position than 'Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union'.
How can Davis say the media twisted his words, he just lied and everyone throughout the world heard it, the EU and all the other countries he wants to do deals with.
The most stupid/ignorant thing he said yesterday was "we'll think of something" to keep the NI Border open/frictionless. This is a man supposedly in charge of the most important negotiation the UK have done since the war.
If you've conceded, Mr Davis, that the NI has to stay open, you're in the CU and you're not making any deals by yourself, why not be honest and tell the people that.
As has been said the final amount of the bill will be calculated after December 31st 2020. The agreement is to ensure that the UK will pay what it owes at that point.
The most stupid/ignorant thing he said yesterday was "we'll think of something" to keep the NI Border open/frictionless. This is a man supposedly in charge of the most important negotiation the UK have done since the war.
If you've conceded, Mr Davis, that the NI has to stay open, you're in the CU and you're not making any deals by yourself, why not be honest and tell the people that.
As has been said the final amount of the bill will be calculated after December 31st 2020. The agreement is to ensure that the UK will pay what it owes at that point.
Full steam ahead!
Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll take over in another glorious revolution before Brexit happens
Would probably be one of the best results ever to come out of the EU. Spending on individual militaries, which are in effect jack of all trades, master of none organisations (or worse...) never really made sense as long as we agree to stay away from military adventures, which, to be honest, is far easier without the UK being with us.
It has been happening for quite some time already anyway, just without people noticing. The Dutch military is integrated into the German one in large swaths already, the Czech tank divisions are part of the German army as well and will be part of the Leo 2 successor program. It just makes sense.
And the Franco-German brigade at Mullheilm.
Different project though. It's a joint brigade, while in the Dutch case, their brigades are just integrated into the German army as a whole. Will be the same for the Czechs. 4th rapid deployment brigade will be part of the 10th tank division of the Germany, just like the 43rd mechanized of the Dutch army is already part of our 1st tank division.
Our marines are serving onboard the dutch amphibious landing ships permanently by the way.
Its really concerning isn't it?