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Good point.

Whilst @Hughes35 was understandably misled regarding the Brexit point it's hard to argue that the vein of Euroscepticism running through this government hasn't been beneficial in this regard.

The fact that the flaws in the EU vaccine strategy were being highlighted back in July but the only country (to my knowledge?) within the block not following this strategy was the one leaving I'd say tells you everything you need to know.
Celebrating the UKs vaccine approach "versus" the EU is about as premature as celebrating a goal while it is under VAR review. The vaccine process is nowhere near finished and as yet has had minimal impact on preventing us having the highest number of deaths in Europe.

Smacks of desperation from people grasping for any possible distraction from the calamitous Brexit and also the calamitous leadership mistakes during covid we have had so far.
 
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Worth posting this on the EU vaccine approach from the head of BioNTech on the EU approach

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...d-jabs-after-claims-of-bowing-to-anti-vaxxers

Uğur Şahin, thehead of the German biotech firm, told Der Spiegel that the order process in Europe “certainly did not go as fast and smooth as it did with other countries”.

Şahin, who founded BioNtech with his wife, Özlem Türeci, – the firm’s chief medical officer – said the situation was “not rosy” as the EU had wrongly assumed several different vaccines would be ready at once, so spread its orders.

“The assumption was that many other companies would come up with their vaccines,” Şahin said. “It would seem that the impression was: ‘We’ll get enough, it won’t be so bad, and we have this under control.’ It surprised me.”


The FT reported that defenders of the EU approach use this line of argument

Defenders of the EU approach point to the challenges of setting up an entirely new vaccine procurement programme and co-ordinating with member states that have varying demands.

https://www.ft.com/content/c1575e05-70e5-4e5f-b58c-cde5c99aba5f

The defence is actually supports my point perfectly. The collaborative nature of the approach hinders agility and responsiveness which is a negative in this particular, albeit extremely important, case
But if every country had gone for itself it would have just resulted in a bidding war for a limited product. Poorer countries would have been left without. Now I'm not saying the EU has done it perfectly, but those who would have profited from said bidding war might not be the perfect judge to ask.
 
The defence is actually supports my point perfectly. The collaborative nature of the approach hinders agility and responsiveness which is a negative in this particular, albeit extremely important, case

But is anyone actually arguing that the EU have done a great job?

It appears the only argument is that the UK plan, with as much as three months between doses is a first live trial and therefore a gamble; and that every European country had the option to do the same, but they chose a different path.
 
But if every country had gone for itself it would have just resulted in a bidding war for a limited product. Poorer countries would have been left without. Now I'm not saying the EU has done it perfectly, but those who would have profited from said bidding war might not be the perfect judge to ask.

The EU clubbing together its vast resources to hoover up billions of vaccines has left poorer nations without any vaccine the world over, or do you mean the poorer nations in the bloc only?

Regardless, my point was only that in this particular case, the UK not being in the EU was an advantage and it is demonstrative of how an independent nation can be more agile and responsive in some cases.

To clarify, I know that any EU nation could have gone independent on their vaccine procurement and approval but being in the bloc puts pressure on nations to be collaborative in cases like these, as evidenced by no EU nation breaking rank - meaning that if remain had won its highly likely the UK would've been in the EU programme as well.

But is anyone actually arguing that the EU have done a great job?

It appears the only argument is that the UK plan, with as much as three months between doses is a first live trial and therefore a gamble; and that every European country had the option to do the same, but they chose a different path.

The vaccination policy after procurement and approval was only an aside. It was never part of my original point.
 
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Have to say, this debate is exhausting and so bloody pointless. Cheap point scoring for no fecking reason.

I personally don't agree with the UK's approach in this particular case but it is inaccurate to say that it is a unique approach. Denmark have already confirmed they will be postponing their 2nd doses from the recommended 3 weeks and other countries, including Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland are also considering it, even looking at extending beyond 6 weeks.

Is it optimal? Of course its fecking not, we're in an incredibly abysmal situation in Europe at the moment. Nothing about this situation is optimal.

Regardless, the other point is that literally none of this really has anything to do with Brexit though.


But if every country had gone for itself it would have just resulted in a bidding war for a limited product. Poorer countries would have been left without. Now I'm not saying the EU has done it perfectly, but those who would have profited from said bidding war might not be the perfect judge to ask.

Poorer countries have already been left behind by North America and Europe hoarding vaccine doses and likely will be for years to come. Assuming the vaccines do provide some degree of herd immunity, much of Europe or North America will likely be back to some degree of normalcy by the end of the year, while most countries in the global south struggle to get up to 20% of their populations vaccinated through the COVAX programme. There's nothing altruistic about the approach here, from the UK, EU, Japan, USA or Canada or any other country you may care to mention.
 
The EU clubbing together its vast resources to hoover up billions of vaccines has left poorer nations without any vaccine the world over, or do you mean the poorer nations in the bloc only?
Obviously I mean the nations in the bloc, what other purpose would being in a bloc have!?
Regardless, my point was only that in this particular case, the UK not being in the EU was an advantage and it is demonstrative of how an independent nation can be more agile and responsive in some cases.

To clarify, I know that any EU nation could have gone independent on their vaccine procurement and approval but being in the bloc puts pressure on nations to be collaborative in cases like these, as evidenced by no EU nation breaking ranks - meaning that if remain had won its highly likely the UK would've been in the EU programme as well.



The vaccination policy after procurement and approval was only an aside. It was never part of my original point.
The truth is the UK is the only country with a government that was willing to gamble on a vaccine first. Is it really that much of a surprise that that government is made up of the same people who were willing to gamble their careers on the brexit referendum?

Also the Russians and Chinese gambled on their vaccines even earlier, is that a result of being even further away from the EU?
 
Poorer countries have already been left behind by North America and Europe hoarding vaccine doses and likely will be for years to come. Assuming the vaccines do provide some degree of herd immunity, much of Europe or North America will likely be back to some degree of normalcy by the end of the year, while most countries in the global south struggle to get up to 20% of their populations vaccinated through the COVAX programme. There's nothing altruistic about the approach here, from the UK, EU, Japan, USA or Canada or any other country you may care to mention.
It's not about altruism, it's simple economics. The European countries would have gained nothing from entering a bidding war with each other over a limited supply, and those in the bloc with the least resources would have been left behind.
 
It's not about altruism, it's simple economics. The European countries would have gained nothing from entering a bidding war with each other over a limited supply, and those in the bloc with the least resources would have been left behind.

Apologies, I wasn't talking about the bloc, I was talking about the world at large, which is what I thought you were referring to.

Seeing as you weren't, what I was saying doesn't really apply to your point anymore.
 
Obviously I mean the nations in the bloc, what other purpose would being in a bloc have!?

The truth is the UK is the only country with a government that was willing to gamble on a vaccine first. Is it really that much of a surprise that that government is made up of the same people who were willing to gamble their careers on the brexit referendum?

Also the Russians and Chinese gambled on their vaccines even earlier, is that a result of being even further away from the EU?

It wasn't though. Canada used the same approval method as us. I don't think the government have pressured the scientists into policy here anyway. That said, this has nothing to do with my original point and is for the vaccine thread anyway.
 
Erm... it’s Matti Sällberg, professor and vaccine researcher at Karolinska, one of the World’s top medical research universities.

As he states:

It has not been evaluated what the protection looks like after one dose, you have no idea what it looks like after three months without dose two, says Matti Sällberg, professor and vaccine researcher at Karolinska.

It’s not fecking Breitbart.

So the science, not a bloody internet search tells us we have no idea how big or small a risk the UK vaccine protocol is, the UK is gambling. It’s calculated, but of course it’s gambling man. No vaccine study has been done with 3 months in between doses, so how the feck can it not be a calculated gamble?

Oxford's vaccine was trialled with 3 months in between doses on quite a lot of people, and the dosage interval varied a lot within the studies. In fact most people in the UK study arms got the vaccine "more than 12 weeks after the first dose".

Here's the science:

The timing of priming and booster vaccine administration varied between studies. As protocol amendments to add a booster dose took place when the trials were underway, and owing to the time taken to manufacture and release a new batch of vaccine, doses could not be administered at a 4-week interval. 1459 (53·2%) of 2741 participants in COV002 in the LD/SD group received a second dose at least 12 weeks after the first (median 84 days, IQR 77—91) and only 22 (0·8%) received a second dose within 8 weeks of the first. The median interval between doses for the SD/SD group in COV002 was 69 days (50–86). Conversely, the majority of participants in COV003 in the SD/SD group (2493 [61·0%] of 4088) received a second dose within 6 weeks of the first (median 36 days, 32–58; appendix 1 p 11).

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For our secondary analysis of cases occurring more than 21 days after the first standard dose in participants who received only standard doses, there were 192 included cases with a vaccine efficacy of 64·1% (95% CI 50·5–73·9; table 4; figure)

More than 21 days after their first dose, ten participants were hospitalised due to COVID-19 (defined as WHO clinical progression score ≥4), two of whom were assessed as having severe COVID-19 (WHO score ≥6), including one fatal case. All ten cases were in the control group (table 5).

In participants who received two standard doses, efficacy against primary symptomatic COVID-19 was consistent in both the UK (60·3% efficacy) and Brazil (64·2% efficacy), indicating these results are generalisable across two diverse settings with different timings for the booster dose (with most participants in the UK receiving the booster dose more than 12 weeks after the first dose and most participants in Brazil receiving their second dose within 6 weeks of the first). Exploratory subgroup analyses included at the request of reviewers and editors also showed no significant difference in efficacy estimates when comparing those with a short time window between doses (<6 weeks) and those with longer (≥6 weeks), although further detailed exploration of the timing of doses might be warranted.
 
It’s a difficult position for Ireland to be in. The EU-Ireland ferry routes likely won’t have the capacity to take the strain off for a few years. And there would be disputes with Brussels if Ireland decides to ease up on applying the letter of the EU customs rules on imports from Britain so soon after Brexit.

Presumably some of the delays will abate as suppliers get more familiar with the paperwork.
 
As I Iive quite close to the Paris-Toulouse-Spain motorway, have been on it five or six times already this year, about 100kms each time and have not seen a single UK or Irish registered truck on it at all which is in stark contrast from pre-2021.
Plenty of trucks from Spain, Portugal, NL, Belgium, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Germany, Italy, Lithuania etc. and France of course.
 
People who voted for it would have died. You see the fallacy of this decision.
 
People who voted for it would have died. You see the fallacy of this decision.

Boomers are famously altruistic and will have been voting to benefit the generations below them and more than happy to sacrifice their own comforts in return.
 


This is a few years old but I can imagine, in the year 2060: My great-great grandfather voted for Brexit and we still haven't seen anything but despair and a downward spiral of the UK since: Tory PM , now 50 years of Tory government in a one party state - Don't worry, only another ten years to go and the sunlit uplands will be ours.
 
50 years is a stupidly long time to forecast anything. How would we even know to attribute any benefits to Brexit?

Which is exactly the point - it’s so vague as to be meaningless. I doubt his hedge fund markets investments where you can expect (maybe) to see a return in 2071.
 
Which is exactly the point - it’s so vague as to be meaningless. I doubt his hedge fund markets investments where you can expect (maybe) to see a return in 2071.

It's not meaningless in the sense that he is essentially telling people to shut up and move on. Because in 50 years the vast majority of the population will have lived almost his entire adult life in a post brexit UK, they won't even know the difference.
 
Which is exactly the point - it’s so vague as to be meaningless. I doubt his hedge fund markets investments where you can expect (maybe) to see a return in 2071.
It's almost like he's incredibly wealthy so basically nothing can affect him, stands to benefit further financially from Brexit and is both wildly out of touch with the people of the UK and doesn't give the slightest feck about anyone who isn't of his vaunted peer group other than Mary Poppins, who is his nemesis.
 
It's not meaningless in the sense that he is essentially telling people to shut up and move on. Because in 50 years the vast majority of the population will have lived almost his entire adult life in a post brexit UK, they won't even know the difference.

I wanted to say that it’s meaningless as a prediction. It does have meaning as an admission of the utter futility of Brexit as it scuppers the one “serious” argument of its supporters - namely the chance to re-orientate and rebalance the UK economy. It doesn’t take 50 years to achieve that - look at New Zealand after the UK joined the EU or even Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed. In essence it’s JRM with his pantomime toff patter telling his prole supporters to just go away and concentrate on football or reality TV while he and his cronies make hay.
 
I don't think they're really gambling. As for the approval process: to my understanding, the emergency process serves to push approval faster so it can be administered quicker to a narrower population group. For example, to my knowledge, not enough is known yet about the effects on children and pregnant woman for the Pfizer/BioNTech one. Once that comes out, the UK will have to go through a relatively large approval process again, where apparently the more fulsome EU process performed by EMA means they can add further population groups to the approval more easily. Or something along those lines; I might be getting facts wrong, but the overall idea is correct. Pros and cons - but so administering the vaccine to the rest of the population isn't a gamble.

As for extending the wait until the second dose: that's done in other places as well. (Did QC start doing it or were they just strongly considering it?) The idea is to quickly get some immunity in more people, to help flatten the curve in a situation that's getting seriously out of hand. A full and proper campaign can follow later.

I suppose a proper discussion of this stuff is rather for the COVID-19 thread; but my point is that these are all legitimate, practical considerations, which every country can make. None of it is in any way related to Brexit. (Apart from that, as suggested above, there may be more peer pressure in the EU to wait for the EMA's process rather than using a local emergency process. On the other hand, waiting for EMA means not having to use resources at home for vaccine approvals, meaning that those people can focus on other things. Again: pros and cons; and nothing to do with Brexit.)

this is the reply I would have loved to have been able to write! @4bars

It’s not about winning, it’s not about Brexit. My point was simply that the UK is in a position to do things quicker in this situation. It wasn’t point scoring.

I agree it’s not a gamble, and promulgation of such an argument is reminiscent of Facebook arguments.


I understand the idea behind, but Pfizer didn't recommend doing it and there is 0 data. what if in 2 month immunity disappears and you have to start over? What if it mutates in stronger virus that makes the vaccine(s) immune? Is pure gamble because there is no data and puts not only the UK at risk but the whole world
 
I understand the idea behind, but Pfizer didn't recommend doing it and there is 0 data. what if in 2 month inmunity disappears and you have to start over? Is pure gamble because there is no data
But they're taking that risk to try and smash down that curve right now. I mean, the main downside is needing more vaccines. If that means no overpopulated hospitals and everything that follows from that, then I see how that can be considered worth it. In any case, I would still say that it's not a gamble, it's an action that carries a considered risk.

Maybe it's a terminology thing at this point; working at the government might have done this to me. :nervous:
 
But they're taking that risk to try and smash down that curve right now. I mean, the main downside is needing more vaccines. If that means no overpopulated hospitals and everything that follows from that, then I see how that can be considered worth it. In any case, I would still say that it's not a gamble, it's an action that carries a considered risk.

Maybe it's a terminology thing at this point; working at the government might have done this to me. :nervous:

I knew that something was wrong about you. :smirk:
 
But they're taking that risk to try and smash down that curve right now. I mean, the main downside is needing more vaccines. If that means no overpopulated hospitals and everything that follows from that, then I see how that can be considered worth it. In any case, I would still say that it's not a gamble, it's an action that carries a considered risk.

Maybe it's a terminology thing at this point; working at the government might have done this to me. :nervous:
You better not be Jacob Rees Mogg or whatever the Canadian equivalent is.
 
But they're taking that risk to try and smash down that curve right now. I mean, the main downside is needing more vaccines. If that means no overpopulated hospitals and everything that follows from that, then I see how that can be considered worth it. In any case, I would still say that it's not a gamble, it's an action that carries a considered risk.

Maybe it's a terminology thing at this point; working at the government might have done this to me. :nervous:

And I said that I understand the idea behind and the reasoning and is a good strategy short term but you are gambling the future to make it worse in long term
 
You better not be Jacob Rees Mogg or whatever the Canadian equivalent is.
I didn't say I worked in politics!

Also, that may be the worst (indirect) insult I've ever had. What a day! ('Dear diary...')
 
Since we were talking about it here, I'll just add a link to an article Science published just two days ago on the pros and potential cons of delaying the administration of the second vaccine dose:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...tween-doses-drive-coronavirus-outwit-vaccines

I know this doesn't belong here and discussion should go to the COVID-19 thread; but just for those that were posting here and were interested in the topic (outside linking it to Brexit).
 
If you struggle to get past the first few words of a post, maybe that is why you have missed it?

Try reading the full sentence for a start.

Your post started with a straw man (celebrations), continued with an interesting delve into the realms of blatant obviousness (vaccination process not finished) and had an obvious misnomer as the masterly crescendo (denunciating Tory/Brexit apologism, despite it never having been enunciated).

You're a good poster. Don't let a difference of opinion on any matter sully that credibility.