Television Breaking Bad

Mockney said:
Finding the Lily of the Valley plant, or some evidence that Walt knows of it's effects or has used it before, would've been the more sensible way for him to have reach his cast iron conclusion.

It may not have been quite as dramatic though, which I think is what they were going for.
Click to expand...

Yeah, i'm not sure why they couldn't have just had it so that he was going over to the house to confront Walt about his suspicions, and then finding the plant as he was moving around the house trying to get in.
 
Cina said:
Yeah, i'm not sure why they couldn't have just had it so that he was going over to the house to confront Walt about his suspicions, and then finding the plant as he was moving around the house trying to get in.
Click to expand...


I think after Hank finding the book, that would've seemed like two identical implausible lapses from Walt. So I understand why they didn't do that.

But there are loads of other ways. He could've found some evidence of Walt using Lily of the Valley for some other purpose, or talking to someone else about where to get it or what it can do. etc. Or even an old text book where Mr White talked about the effects of Lily of the Valley chemically... Whatever, it just would've made more sense if the realisation had come from that plant, and not the ricin. Let alone the pickpocketing.
 
Mockney said:
I think after Hank finding the book, that would've seemed like two identical implausible lapses from Walt. So I understand why they didn't do that.

But there are loads of other ways. He could've found some evidence of Walt using Lily of the Valley for some other purpose, or talking to someone else about where to get it or what it can do. etc. Or even an old text book where Mr White talked about the effects of Lily of the Valley chemically... Whatever, it just would've made more sense if the realisation had come from that plant, and not the ricin. Let alone the pickpocketing of the ricin he found anyway that wasn't used.
Click to expand...

Well it was still sitting there at the end of season four though wasn't it? I'd assume Walt would have gotten rid but it's less implausible than the book imo.

I wonder if Jesse will ever find out about Jane, there doesn't seem to be any way he could without a flat out confession from Walt.
 
Definitely more plausible, but they couldn't pull the same trick twice once they'd done the book.

He'll have blurt out the Jane thing during an argument or something. Or let on that he was there somehow accidentally.

Or of course Jesse could just reach an implausible conclusion by the roadside.
 
Mockney said:
Again, from his POV, he doesn't think he was pickpocketed once. He found the replacement, and the kid was poisoned with something else. What reason is there for him to think he was pickpocketed the first time? Other than paranoia.
Click to expand...

His first thought was that he'd been pickpocketed and accused Walt of poisoning Brock on the basis of that. A reasonable assumption considering how carefully he looked after the ricin cigarette and how ruthless and manipulative he knew Walt could be.

My opinion is that Jesse never really dropped this first line of thinking. He might have pushed it to the back of mind, accepting Walt's explanations reluctantly whilst giving him there benefit of the doubt; but by definition the benefit of the doubt won't ever clear that original doubt. Even when the cigarette 'turned up' Jesse never ceased to strongly suspect that Walt was involved in the poisoning of the child; his decline in mental stability is extrinsically linked with the gradual realisation that Walter White is the real monster, but nevertheless Jesse is compelled to allow the man to use and manipulate him (evidence of this is seen in the last episode when Jesse vocalises this state; he tells Walt that he knows he's manipulated him at every step, implying that he's for a long time known but was nevertheless incapable of doing anything about it).

The Lilley of the Valley revelation does little to quash Jesse's prior suspensions of Walt since he has already witnessed first hand many times Walt's ingenuity in creating elaborate situations through which to weave his particular brand of lies and manipulation. It's certainly wouldn't be beyond Walter White to orchestrate such an excuse and Jesse knows this. The cigarette turning up eventually is meaningless deep down as it's but a child's trick to put back something you've stolen in order to make it appear it was simply lost.

The important factor is that Jesse suspected Walt all along. He knew that Walt killed Mike because he's become accustomed to spotting Walt's lies. The killing of Mike is crucial to the eventual full realisation in the last episode because Walt told Jesse point blank that he did not kill Mike in just the same way he refused responsibility for the poisoning of Brock; Walt's lies about Mike represented the first time since Walt's original denial that Jesse had managed to bring his overarching suspicions from his subconscious to the forefront, and herein lies the cause of his latest catatonic breakdown.

Despite all this, Jesse still cannot bring himself to escape from Walt's mindhold over his actions. Again, the scene in the desert in the last episode indicates Jesse's residence to a life under Walt's will - Jesse begs Walt to be straight with him for once but Walt refuses, choosing instead to silently lock Jesse in his arms.

The pickpocketing of the weed is the final piece in an otherwise long and convoluted jigsaw. It's the straw that broke the camel's back causing Jesse to finally lose his shit once and for all and swear bitter revenge (not for the first time mind) on the man he blames for all the darkness in his life. It's only a stretch to believe he'd react this way if you choose to look at these scenes as a passive observer free from the emotion, suspicions, pain and paranoia Jesse is suffering from.
 
You're putting waaaay to much stock in a TV character's plausible motivations. You geek. We can all make up these kinds of things for any unsaid or under explained happening in a fictional creation. For a superbly written TV show, they obfuscated a crucial realisation for dramatic effect.

At least we've come down from "it's fecking obvious you idiots, do you even watch the show" type rhetoric, to "stop criticising the show!!" to "well if you look at it like this, in really deep psychological terms, and making a few assumptions of our own, it sort of makes some sense"

For all we know it could be explained better this week. The two seem to be heading to a confrontation, so it makes sense it would be, at least a little bit. And if so, I look forward to reviewing people's "obvious" conclusions if it doesn't match up.

I'll happily concede any points if it is.
 
Mockney said:
The ricin he later found in his flat. From his POV, no one actually lifted it. Only the audience know his assumption was correct. He's now made the leap that the ricin found in his flat was a duplicate made by Walt, and placed in his dust buster, all for the purpose of removing suspicion so he could poisonin him with something else anyway, something a doctor told him kids sometimes eat by accident. That's a stretch.
Click to expand...

Minor quibble but it wasn't a duplicate, it was the actual one. Saul gave it back to him early season 5.
 
Mockney said:
You're putting waaaay to much stock in a TV character's plausible motivations. You geek. We can all make up these kinds of things for any unsaid or under explained happening in a fictional creation. For a superbly written TV show, they obfuscated a crucial realisation for dramatic effect.

At least we've come down from "it's fecking obvious you idiots, do you even watch the show" type rhetoric, to "if you look at it like this, in really deep psychological terms, and making a few assumptions of our own, it sort of makes some sense"
Click to expand...

I don't think you have to look at the show in really deep psychological terms to find such explanations. It's only when challenged by somebody telling you it doesn't make sense that one has to put it all into so many words such as above; I think most people just subconsciously connect with the arching emotional states of the main characters and thus when something occurs such as the cigarette realisation, something which to a viewer not previously aware of these characters' emotions* might seem somewhat farfetched, most people will subconsciously connect the dots and accept the eventuality as being admissible without having to give it all that much thought. If you are subsequently challenged to explain why it makes sense then of course it's perfectly reasonable to go into detail about the various characters' emotional states leading up to any particular event.

*A viewer intent on finding plot holes by looking solely at bare facts whilst assuming the characters involved are perfectly clear of mind and operating within the boundaries of unwavering logic for example.
 
Ciderman90210 said:
I don't think you have to look at the show in really deep psychological terms to find such explanations. It's only when challenged by somebody telling you it doesn't make sense that one has to put it all into so many words such as above; I think most people just subconsciously connect with the arching emotional states of the main characters and thus when something occurs such as the cigarette realisation, something which otherwise might seem somewhat farfetched, most people will subconsciously connect the dots and accept the eventuality as being admissible without having to give it all that much thought. If you are subsequently challenged to explain why it makes sense then of course it's perfectly reasonable to go into detail about the various characters' emotional states leading up to any particular event.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. What takes 5 paras and 800 words to write out is only a second's thought, it is not really deep analysis, it boils down to: Jesse never trusted Walt, his doubts were always there in the background and it only took something small to make it all come flooding back. I must admit when I was watching it my first thought was, "what has the ricin got to do with it?" But it didnt seem inconsistent or unrealistic. Sometimes these things just fall into place, youve been obsessing about something for a long time, and then when you make the final connection the thing that does it isnt even directly connected. Its a bit like the old adage, if you are trying to remember something and you cant, the best thing is to stop thinking about it. Obviously it isnt neat as far as the plot line goes, but neither is it anything worth spending too long worrying about.
 
My viewpoint would be that if you have to do that kind of emotional intelligence gymnastics to explain a plot point, it's probably not that brilliantly written a plot point.

We'll wait and see. Jesse could tell Walt the whole process of his epiphany next week for all we know.
 
No, because over-exposition ruins drama. But it could be. If we're gonna play the whole "emotional state of the characters" game, if I was Walt, I could claim the ricin was lifted for another reason, and Brock was still poisoned accidentally by Lily of the Valley.

I don't think they'll do this though, because that would be backtracking, and create more expository dialogue. But if we're putting stock in the actual, realistic reactions, emotions and thought processes of these fictional characters, I don't think Walt would give up so easily. The facts are still on his side.
 
Aaaand we're back to that.

Fwiw, I also had your instinctive "I get what he's just realised" moment. But then I thought about it afterwards. Without the confirmation bias.

Lost made sense if you really think about it. Have I ever told you why Matrix Revolution's is actually really awesome and clever?
 
Mockney said:
Aaaand we're back to that.
Click to expand...

Well if you're going to insist that the viewer have no emotional investment in the show, what do you expect?

If you want everything put on a plate and spoon fed to you like an episode of Diagnosis Murder then stick to something more palatable to your desired level of involvement.

In Breaking Bad certain plot points might require you to consider the emotional states of the main characters before they can be reasonably explained. You need to deal with that.
 
Terrorists hate freedom, though some of the 9/11 hijackers spent their last night in a strip club, sampling the fruits of what they hate.
In much the same way, Mockney hates emotional investment in TV, but before he comes in here to preach about it to us, he cries about Star Trek. Or whatever he did, I dont know anything about that to be honest.
 
Ciderman90210 said:
Well if you're going to insist that the viewer have no emotional investment in the show, what do you expect?

If you want everything put on a plate and spoon fed to you like an episode of Diagnosis Murder then stick to something more palatable to your desired level of involvement.

In Breaking Bad certain plot points might require you to consider the emotional states of the main characters before they can be reasonably explained. You need to deal with that.
Click to expand...

You know there are about 700 different posts like this in the Lost thread, right?

There's a difference between emotional investment in what's happening. And being so invested in the show you can't accept it may have any flaws.
 
TBH. I had the same initial reaction after watching the episode myself. I don't really have an issue with people thinking that Jeese and Hanks epiphanies are a bit of a stretch (I agree they are) but this circular argument about him not knowing for sure really needs to stop now that Saul has admitted it.

Also like I said earlier in the thread, the whole 'riacin switcheroo to get Jesse on side' plot was ridiculously contrived in the first place but nobody had a massive issue with that.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
TBH. I had the same initial reaction after watching the episode myself. I don't really have an issue with people thinking that Jeese and Hanks epiphanies are a bit of a stretch (I agree they are) but this circular argument about him not knowing for sure really needs to stop now that Saul has admitted it.

Also like I said earlier in the thread, the whole 'riacin switcheroo to get Jesse on side' plot was ridiculously contrived in the first place but nobody had a massive issue with that.
Click to expand...


Innit. I'm all for letting it go. It's a discussion thread about the show though. Where else are we gonna discuss it?

Though I think if I push it a bit more, I can still get a "you couldn't write any better" argument. That's all that's missing really.

I actually liked Lost for a bit. The first season in particular was very good TV. It went mad though.
 
Mockney said:
You know there are about 700 different posts like this in the Lost thread, right?

There's a difference between emotional investment in what's happening. And being so invested in the show you can't accept it may have any flaws.
Click to expand...

I've never seen Lost so couldn't comment.

The Jesse thing though can be easily explained when you realise that Jesse never let go of his suspicions of Walt in the first place. There's lots of evidence to suggest this to be the case - I outlined some of it for you in an above post but you dismissed it all as being too psychological.

If you refuse to accept that certain plot points can be explained through examining the emotions of the character as well as the bare facts of the case then you'll just have to accept that certain plot points will always be inexplicable to you whilst others understand perfectly.

That's a failing in yourself though rather than of the writers of the show.
 
And anyone who doesn't agree with your self created explanations for something that hasn't been explained yet is a pleb who should watch teletubbies, right? Gotcha.

I didn't dismiss it for being too psychological, I dismissed it because it's not what was presented, and is largely you looking deeply into it and impacting how you want the show to be written on me.
 
Wow! What an episode - that tape :cool: Genius move by Walt. I don't think Jesse will burn the house down - didn't look burnt to me, to be honest.
 
The portrayal of the character they named John Locke in Lost was symptomatic of how psuedo it was. None of the people they named after philosophers had any relation to their namesakes. It was classic Matrix-trilogy name checking bullshit. I really should've taken note of that before I watched it to the bitter end.

I somehow doubt the Ozymandias theme in BB will be as blithe.
 
coolredwine said:
All I can conclude is that Jesse is just acting on assumptions, and nothing else. He suspects Walt of misdoings (Mike, Brock), and considering he was tossing millions out on the road, he has already lost it. The pouring-gasoline-at-Walt's-house is the final straw. How is suddenly suspects Walt of poisoning Brock, killing Gus, prancing him around, we don't know yet.
Click to expand...


coolredwine said:
How? How does he know all that? All that he knows is that ricin was nicked off him the same way the packet of dope was. He rushes to Saul, who just affirms that it was Walt who ordered them to pick ricin off him (And Brock was poisoned with the Lily of the Valley flower). All he knows is that Walt was manipulating him. For all the hoopla, Gus men have killed a kid before.
Click to expand...

I like you, coolred.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.