There is no plot hole. It's been explained to you over and over.
Television Breaking Bad
- Thread starter Burndogg
- Start date
Yeah I don't know how you're still arguing against this. It's mental, but funny as feck too.
I don't think Jesse thinks Walt poisoned Brock with ricin. I think Jesse thinks Walt poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley, as doing so (along with taking the ricin from Jesse) would trick Jesse into thinking ricin had been used.
I don't think it's an enormous conclusion for Jesse to come to, it's the only logical conclusion. Otherwise he has to believe that Brock getting poisoned with Lily of the Valley was a total coincidence and had nothing to do with Walt taking the ricin. So why else would Walt take the ricin?
You have to keep in mind that Jesse already has Walt sussed as a manipulative liar, he already knows he doesn't have a massive problem with people dying and he had originally suspected Walt was the poisoner. It's not a big leap for him to make, especially when it's the most likely and logical explanation for what happened.
He also definitely doesn't say 'poisoned with ricin'.
Nope. He definitely doesn't say that at all.
nahealai, why do you keep suggesting that Hank's realisation of Walt's involvement was a great leap?
He knew from his diary that Gale idolised somebody he referred to as WW in elegant prose.
He then found the inscription in Walt's book, idolising Walter White in elegant prose whilst referring to him as WW - in Gale's handwriting no less!
Hank suspected previously that the WW in Gale's diary was in reference to Heisenberg, but Walt threw him off the idea.
Hank's supposedly a really good detective, but even Inspector Gadget could put two and two together there and realise that Walt was Heisenberg! Where's the great, unrealistic leap you keep referring to?!
He knew from his diary that Gale idolised somebody he referred to as WW in elegant prose.
He then found the inscription in Walt's book, idolising Walter White in elegant prose whilst referring to him as WW - in Gale's handwriting no less!
Hank suspected previously that the WW in Gale's diary was in reference to Heisenberg, but Walt threw him off the idea.
Hank's supposedly a really good detective, but even Inspector Gadget could put two and two together there and realise that Walt was Heisenberg! Where's the great, unrealistic leap you keep referring to?!
How about not simply assuming that Walt - if he was involved in cooking meth - was simply that; a meth cook working for a more superior figurehead.
When Hank confronts Walt about it, he accuses him outright of being the kingpin of the entire operation, a ruthless murderer who has killed countless people to keep his empire going.
It's a huge conclusion to jump to without ever questioning the man. Nerd brother-in-law to ruthless killer in about twenty minutes. Breaking Bad.
I'll have to re-watch it again. I was convinced that he uttered the words "poisoned with ricin".
It's not though, as Cider just explained. "Hank suspected previously that the WW in Gale's diary was in reference to Heisenberg".....and given he already knows all about Heisenberg's brutal exploits, at least enough to know he is much more than a simple meth cook, it's obvious that he would view Walt as Heisenberg after making the first connection with the WW's.
One thing a lot of you seem to be overlooking in the Jesse/Cigarette/Brock thing is Jesse's realisation that Walt killed Mike. Jesse knows what Walt is capable of and then subsequently capable of lying convincingly about right to Jesse's face; Huell lifting the weed from Jesse's pocket is but the straw that broke the camel's back for Jesse in his realisation (in fact re-realisation) that Walt poisoned Brock and then lied about it. He certainly didn't figure it all out from the weed going missing; he knew long before that, he just needed that one final thing to fall into place and cause him to snap.
Jesse: "No! Before! The cigarette!"
Jesse: "You stole the cigarette."
Saul: "What?"
Jesse: "The ricin cigarette!"
Jesse: "You had him steal it off of me!"
Jesse: "And all for that asshole Mr White"
Jesse: "He Poisoned Brock....he poisoned Brock and you....You helped him!"
Teehee, Hectic thinks Jesse is spelt Jessie.
No, I don't. See?
Just re-watched that scene there. Jesse states that he thinks Walt poisoned Brock, but he didn't say "poisoned with ricin".
However, I still believe it's a stretch that Jesse would instantly think that Walt poisoned Brock. The doctors said youngsters ingest the plant unwittingly all the time, but Jesse is going to burn down Walt's house on a "gut feeling".
However, I still believe it's a stretch that Jesse would instantly think that Walt poisoned Brock. The doctors said youngsters ingest the plant unwittingly all the time, but Jesse is going to burn down Walt's house on a "gut feeling".
Plus Jesse also saw how little it bothered Walt that Todd shot that kid. There's a scene where they both see the kid reported missing on the news and Jesse gets upset. Walt tells him he feels the same way and lets him go home early. As he's leaving Jesse hears Walt whistling happily to himself, clearly not that bothered with what's happened. That's what finally makes Jesse decide he's done with the operation.
What does he actually know about Heisenberg's brutal exploits specifically? He (rightly) chalks most of the pre-series 5 violence up to Fring and the Cartel.
Walt has spent years building up this underworld reputation as Heisenberg the Kingpin Mastercook; it's been no secret to anybody, let alone Hank, that Heisenberg isn't just a pawn but the brains behind the whole operation - the top man. Every tweaker in town has heard of the master-cook Heisenberg and his ruthless nature. Even when Gus was in charge the wider community thought that Heisenberg was in charge; especially now with Gus dead, Hank knows that finding Heisenberg means finding the kingpin.
he's not burning it down on a gut feeling after Saul owns up to it is he you feckin idiot?In the context of what Walt has done so far, what he knows he is capable of and that he initially suspected him of it in the first place with the ricin he now knows Walt lied to him about, really shows it isn't a stretch. Plus what Cassius just said.
Part of the confusion is that Gus is Heisenberg, or at least what Hank considered Heisenberg to be.
This is from episode 7 in the fourth series:
For Hank, the person funding the superlab is Heisenberg. That's Gus.
The writers kind of got confused with their Heisenberg narrative somewhere in the middle of the third season.
But Hank realizes Heisenberg is still out there after Gus dies. When he's looking into Mike and the 9 prisoners, doesn't he think it's Heisenberg responsible for murdering them, not Mike? Also when they arrest the lawyer with the money he knows there's still someone else behind it? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong though.
The point is Hank is wrong though - Gus was the 'Heisenberg' he was looking for, the one who funded the superlab and the meth empire.
Hank accuses Walt of the prisoner murders in the garage scene. But to me it was implausible and I can't see how he wouldn't think Mike was responsible.
I also thought the scene where Hank came to Skyler appealing for help had something to do with it. He's at his wit's end because his childless wife steals stuff, while her husband has terminal cancer, goes missing for days on end without saying what's happened, lives a life of secrecy, whilst being the mother to a child with CP and a newborn baby, and "Marie's the one with all the problems."
Love that scene, Hank is a pro. None of that Miami Metro bullshit.
fecks sake, can you please stop trying so hard to discredit the show and actually read the explanations being given to you. They're not having to "rush" anything, they had 16 episodes to tie the show up, they aren't making it up as they go along and have only just realised they're running out of episodes.
Yeah, it's a brilliant scene.
That's not that tbh, we're allowed to ask ourselves some question are we not ? A huge percentage of posters still love the show. That doesn't mean it cannot be questioned on certain aspects.
The thread would be boring if all the posts were just 'OMG hOw good is THis?>!'
Personally, I think Breaking Bad is second only to The Sopranos in the recent US TV drama resurgence, but that doesn't mean we can't consider the missteps and oversights of the writers.
Personally, I think Breaking Bad is second only to The Sopranos in the recent US TV drama resurgence, but that doesn't mean we can't consider the missteps and oversights of the writers.
That's fine, I'm not saying everyone should lick the show creators' feet but it's just the one-eyed nature of certain posters' criticisms which get frustrating. Once they've formulated a theory, they won't let it go. I find the way people try to over-credit the show equally frustrating, some of the fan theory's floating around the web are so convoluted that there's no way the writers actually planned half of them.
Er, actually they are. Gilligan has been on record loads of times saying that they didn't know how to end the show after having Hank find the book in Walt's en-suite toilet (another massive plot hole, but whatever). They had no conclusion in mind when recording S5a and even Cranston and co. had no idea of the ending when acting out certain flash-forwards scenes. Gilligan has said him and his fellow-writers sat down for hours debating different storylines before realising they had "wrote themselves into a corner". You actually believe the entire series has been written and decided upon from the very beginning?
Also, Jesse and Gus were only supposed to be brief characters when the show was originally concepted but they impressed so much, Gilligan and his co-writers re-wrote it to make them more central characters.
Gilligan laughs when he's asked about this. He says it's a great honour that fans of the show put that much thought into it, but much of the time the examples of foreshadowing are simply coincidence.
Which also proves the writers are only writing maybe a season at a time (with a vague idea of where the show might end up).
Er, actually they are. Gilligan has been on record loads of times saying that they didn't know how to end the show after having Hank find the book in Walt's en-suite toilet (another massive plot hole, but whatever). They had no conclusion in mind when recording S5a and even Cranston and co. had no idea of the ending when acting out certain flash-forwards scenes. Gilligan has said him and his fellow-writers sat down for hours debating different storylines before realising they had "wrote themselves into a corner". You actually believe the entire series has been written and decided upon from the very beginning?
Also, Jesse and Gus were only supposed to be brief characters when the show was originally concepted but they impressed so much, Gilligan and his co-writers re-wrote it to make them more central characters.
If you don't think, after the length and depth of the show, that they have a pretty tight grasp on where the show is heading and where it will end, then you're deluded. Also, actors often aren't entirely sure of the plot of a show until around the time they begin filming. I'm not saying they had everything set in stone from episode 1, I mean it's surely Gilligan's choice to end after season 5? Do you really think he'd do a rush job a la Arrested Development?
In relation to the theory you were proposing, do you think they would have been satisfied having Jesse come to his conclusions in some botched, half-arsed way? They know the fans are far too dedicated for that.
Vince Gilligan said:
The bolded part is the point that I'm making. It's not like the series ending has snuck up on them or was enforced by another party.
Uh, oh, Mike. You've burst some bubbles with that nugget of information.
All that's missing is the end credits and we've a "holy feck!" moment of our own!
All that's missing is the end credits and we've a "holy feck!" moment of our own!
Let's play devil's advocate here. What method do you propose Jesse thinks Walt used to poison Brock? How would he have managed it without Jesse knowing? Why didn't Jesse, or anyone else for that matter, ask the boy how he managed to get poisoned?
In fact, the entire aftermath of the poisoning was skirted around, which was unusual for a show of such attention to detail. Hence why I suggested earlier that this was intentional on the writers' behalf, to give them "outs" in future episodes. Either that or all will be revealed with a flashback episode soon.
Also, I don't understand the hate for the odd poster who dares questions the show or how it's presented. We're all in agreement that the show is quality and we all love it. I don't see the problem with highlighting some instances whereby we think the writers are being a little liberal is all. Hell, they probably earned it after being on the money about practically everything thus far, but still.
(Last criticism of the night from me. It's a minor one, but a criticism nonetheless.) Maybe it's just me or my expectations are too high after the writers nailing everything to date, but the three major game-changing incidents since S5E08 have been hastily handled in my view. Hank using Walt's en-suite, Hank coming to realise Walt is a mass-murdering druglord and Jesse realising Walt poisoned Brock. One monumental incident with a massive oversight (Hank in Walt's toilet) and two huge realisations that, if you blinked, you'd have missed them. I know I'm nit-picking but the show was almost perfect up to then - as well as adopting its almost trademarked slow-burning nature - and when it's coming to its conclusion, I suppose you're waiting to be completely mesmerised and blown away by clever writing and direction.
I will say, though, that Walt's faux-confession scene was one of the best of the show to date, or any show I've seen for that matter. Pure genius. I was wondering whether they'd explore the idea of Hank being implicated through Walt and Skyler paying for his treatment, but the way they did it was completely left-field. Brilliant writing it has to be said.
Er, actually they are. Gilligan has been on record loads of times saying that they didn't know how to end the show after having Hank find the book in Walt's en-suite toilet (another massive plot hole, but whatever). They had no conclusion in mind when recording S5a and even Cranston and co. had no idea of the ending when acting out certain flash-forwards scenes. Gilligan has said him and his fellow-writers sat down for hours debating different storylines before realising they had "wrote themselves into a corner". You actually believe the entire series has been written and decided upon from the very beginning?
Also, Jesse and Gus were only supposed to be brief characters when the show was originally concepted but they impressed so much, Gilligan and his co-writers re-wrote it to make them more central characters.
Again I have to take issue with this, there's a difference between you not liking something and a plot hole. There is nothing at all that makes it a plot hole.
Here ye go, an interview with Vince Gilligan after season 4. This should settle it:
http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-a...-creator-vince-gilligan-post-mortems-season-4
Interview with Vince Gilligan said:
http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-a...-creator-vince-gilligan-post-mortems-season-4
Have they got any other toilet in the house? I can't remember there being another one.