Television Breaking Bad

Yes, which us why I said it was preposterous, Mike. The doctors said Brock was poisoned from ingesting Lily if the Valley. Ricin was never mentioned, and Jesse should realise this as he was released from police questioning regarding the lack of ricin found.


It's like this: Walt convinced Jesse that Gus had taken the ricin from Jesse and used it to poison Brock. Jesse believed this until he found out Brock was actually poisoned with Lily of the valley. Jesse tries to figure out where the ricin actually went, so Walt plants it in Jesse's apartment. So, at this point Jesse believes that he simply mislaid the ricin and that Brock had accidentally poisoned himself with Lily of the Valley.

Now he's just realised that Heull took the ricin from him, which would only have been done under Walt's orders. So he now knows that Walt took the ricin, used the missing ricin to turn Jesse on Gus and then planted the ricin for Jesse to find.

However, Jesse also knows that Brock had to be sick for the plan to work, otherwise the missing ricin would never have been an issue. So, either Brock happened to accidentally poison himself at a time that was convenient for Walt's plan, or Walt deliberately poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to make Jesse suspect that ricin had been used.

So Jesse doesn't think Walt poisoned Brock with ricin. He thinks that Walt poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to manipulate Jesse into thinking Gus had used the ricin.
 
It was how quick he put it all together that may have been a bit surprising as Jesse isn't known to have the sharpest brain and with him being constantly high ..
 
It's like this: Walt convinced Jesse that Gus had taken the ricin from Jesse and used it to poison Brock. Jesse believed this until he found out Brock was actually poisoned with Lily of the valley. Jesse tries to figure out where the ricin actually went, so Walt plants it in Jesse's apartment. So, at this point Jesse believes that he simply mislaid the ricin and that Brock had accidentally poisoned himself with Lily of the Valley.

Now he's just realised that Heull took the ricin from him, which would only have been done under Walt's orders. So he now knows that Walt took the ricin, used the missing ricin to turn Jesse on Gus and then planted the ricin for Jesse to find.

However, Jesse also knows that Brock had to be sick for the plan to work, otherwise the missing ricin would never have been an issue. So, either Brock happened to accidentally poison himself at a time that was convenient for Walt's plan, or Walt deliberately poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to make Jesse suspect that ricin had been used.

So Jesse doesn't think Walt poisoned Brock with ricin. He thinks that Walt poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to manipulate Jesse into thinking Gus had used the ricin.
I wouldn't really put it past Jesse to think all of this in a matter of minutes. :lol:

That's the only part which has confused me in the whole episode. It's very unlike Jesse to think and figure out stuff. That too that quickly. A man of his nature would just assume he dropped his packet of dope somewhere.
 
It's the same as when Hank put everything together so quickly. They have so many major things to resolve and only eight episodes to work with. In hindsight, they probably should have started working on those two things from the start of season 5 so it didn't feel too rushed.
 
Hank is just working on assumption though. He has no evidence linking Walt to Heisenberg. He just knows that the writing on the book and journal matches, and that Gael (?) was involved with Walt. Plus, he is a DEA agent and intelligent.
 
It's like this: Walt convinced Jesse that Gus had taken the ricin from Jesse and used it to poison Brock. Jesse believed this until he found out Brock was actually poisoned with Lily of the valley. Jesse tries to figure out where the ricin actually went, so Walt plants it in Jesse's apartment. So, at this point Jesse believes that he simply mislaid the ricin and that Brock had accidentally poisoned himself with Lily of the Valley.

Now he's just realised that Heull took the ricin from him, which would only have been done under Walt's orders. So he now knows that Walt took the ricin, used the missing ricin to turn Jesse on Gus and then planted the ricin for Jesse to find.

However, Jesse also knows that Brock had to be sick for the plan to work, otherwise the missing ricin would never have been an issue. So, either Brock happened to accidentally poison himself at a time that was convenient for Walt's plan, or Walt deliberately poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to make Jesse suspect that ricin had been used.

So Jesse doesn't think Walt poisoned Brock with ricin. He thinks that Walt poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to manipulate Jesse into thinking Gus had used the ricin.
Yeah that's what I got out of it.

Although, to be fair, Jesse didn't have to ACTUALLY figure all that out. It was just the realization that Walt had played him big time during the Brock moment (when, earlier in this episode, Jesse emphasized he was fed up of Walt 'working him'), and just how devious he was. He didn't need to put all the pieces together right at that moment, but just realizing that Walt had clearly lied is enough to know he had some kind of involvement in all that episode of Brock being ill.

Plus, even though Jesse is a bit of a bonehead at moments and smokes dope and all, he's not half as stupid as other characters.
 
Jesse already figured it out (mostly) when he held the gun to Walt's head at the end of season four anyway, but back then Walt was able to convince him otherwise. I don't think it was too quick because all it took was the realization that Walt is a great liar (based on Mike for example) and that Huell took his dope, and the story, which he'd already pieced together, was quickly proven true in his eyes.
 
Although I thought the show would have a more epic confrontation between Jesse and Hank (as it did with other big confrontations such as Hank vs. Walt, Skylar vs. Hank and Marie vs. Skyler) and it was a little disappointing that their meeting wasn't very meaningful. However, the episode was so bloody brilliant you can easily forgive that. The confession tape was a work of genius. Just when the audience thinks Walt has a shred of morality and that he can still be a likeable guy, he flips the bird on those bitches with Skylar in on it too! Absolute genius. Saul was great as usual.

I did notice Huell had his hands in Jesse's pocket as Jesse was walking out of Saul's office but I put on my 'black stereotype' glasses and thought he was just stealing shit...
 
Great episode.

I hope Jesse burns Walt's house down while his spastic son is sleeping. I've just had about enough of his face.
 
Although I thought the show would have a more epic confrontation between Jesse and Hank (as it did with other big confrontations such as Hank vs. Walt, Skylar vs. Hank and Marie vs. Skyler) and it was a little disappointing that their meeting wasn't very meaningful. However, the episode was so bloody brilliant you can easily forgive that. The confession tape was a work of genius. Just when the audience thinks Walt has a shred of morality and that he can still be a likeable guy, he flips the bird on those bitches with Skylar in on it too! Absolute genius. Saul was great as usual.

I did notice Huell had his hands in Jesse's pocket as Jesse was walking out of Saul's office but I put on my 'black stereotype' glasses and thought he was just stealing shit...


There's still the possibility of Jesse teaming up with Hank to put Walt in jail.
 
feck yeah, the spider. Didn't Todd pull the jar from his pocket to show her had it just after Walt was telling him he was still in but no one could ever learn of what happened. Then the next time we see a spider it's in the same episode Todd tells the uncles all about what happened.

Very good nahealai.
 
Poor Walt Jr. So much hate.

Has it lost something or gained something given that we know Walts house isn't burned down? I'm always cynical of whether Flashforwards add to the drama.
 
I wouldn't really put it past Jesse to think all of this in a matter of minutes. :lol:

That's the only part which has confused me in the whole episode. It's very unlike Jesse to think and figure out stuff. That too that quickly. A man of his nature would just assume he dropped his packet of dope somewhere.

It's not the first time that Jesse has figured things out quickly. The start of Season 5 Walt and Mike are talking about how they can't blow up a police station to destroy Gus' laptop whilst Jesse is shouting 'magnets' over the top of their conversation.
 
Poor Walt Jr. So much hate.

Has it lost something or gained something given that we know Walts house isn't burned down? I'm always cynical of whether Flashforwards add to the drama.

I don't like them. More specifically, I don't like the one from 501. I'd rather not know what's going to happen.
 
Just picked an old episode at random to watch to kill some time, what in the hell was the point of the whole 'Marie is a kleptomaniac' storyline?!
 
I like flash forwards as long as they don't tell too much. I loved the one from the first of the new episodes, shit is going down!!

Yeah, it depends on how they're done. The series 2 flashforwards were fine until it was all shown to be a red herring to the crap end of the series.

I'm liking the flashforwards in series 5 so far, unless they are a similarly crap red herring.
 
Just picked an old episode at random to watch to kill some time, what in the hell was the point of the whole 'Marie is a kleptomaniac' storyline?!

According to Betsy Brant it's to show how Marie is under a lot of stress and is unhappy. She can go and pretend to be someone she isn't and if she gets caught she knows Hank will get her off the hook.

It's also the same cop who gets her off the hook as a favour to Hank, who asks for Hanks help with a murder case; Gale Botticher (?).
 
It's like this: Walt convinced Jesse that Gus had taken the ricin from Jesse and used it to poison Brock. Jesse believed this until he found out Brock was actually poisoned with Lily of the valley. Jesse tries to figure out where the ricin actually went, so Walt plants it in Jesse's apartment. So, at this point Jesse believes that he simply mislaid the ricin and that Brock had accidentally poisoned himself with Lily of the Valley.

Now he's just realised that Heull took the ricin from him, which would only have been done under Walt's orders. So he now knows that Walt took the ricin, used the missing ricin to turn Jesse on Gus and then planted the ricin for Jesse to find.

However, Jesse also knows that Brock had to be sick for the plan to work, otherwise the missing ricin would never have been an issue. So, either Brock happened to accidentally poison himself at a time that was convenient for Walt's plan, or Walt deliberately poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to make Jesse suspect that ricin had been used.

So Jesse doesn't think Walt poisoned Brock with ricin. He thinks that Walt poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley in order to manipulate Jesse into thinking Gus had used the ricin.


I don't know, I still think it's a wild assumption to make. What proof does Jesse have that Walt was behind the poisoning of Brock? He has none. Hell, even the audience have no proof that Walt was behind it. All we had to go on was the camerawork hinting at the Lily of the Valley plant in Walt's back garden (and the gun pointing to it when Walt was playing his version of 'Spin the Bottle'). For all we know, this could be another 'witty' red herring from those oh-so-cunning writers.

I am enjoying the new episodes as major events are happening in quick succession, but this goes against the nature of the show in my opinion. Maybe if you'd waited for a year when S05A finished before viewing these new ones, you wouldn't mind, but I re-watched the entire series again only two weeks before the new episodes aired and the difference in pacing between these episodes and the rest is extraordinary.

I know others disagree on this one, but I'm not buying the reasons for Jesse's latest meltdown. It's a fanciful stretch for Jesse to blame Walt for poisoning Brock. He knows that ricin wasn't involved as the police released Jesse from custody for this exact reason. He seems to be pinning it on Walt just because Huell lifted the dope from him in Saul's office. Even if Huell lifted the ricin cigarette, what proof does Jesse have that Walt poisoned Brock? Did Jesse even question Brock as to how he came into contact with the plant? Surely that would have been a start?

I think the writers/directors deliberately left out the scene depicting how Brock got poisoned to leave themselves "outs" in future. They even left out an explanation as to how the poisoning took place. How could Walt, if he did do it, have gained access to the boy without being noticed? I would not at all be surprised if the notion that Walt poisoned Brock turned out to be a red herring, despite us being led to believe it was true all along.
 
feck yeah, the spider. Didn't Todd pull the jar from his pocket to show her had it just after Walt was telling him he was still in but no one could ever learn of what happened. Then the next time we see a spider it's in the same episode Todd tells the uncles all about what happened.

Very good nahealai.


I've thought about this more today, Irwin, and I'm convinced that it is significant. We've got to the stage now where every detail, no matter how minor it appears, matters. The inclusion of that tarantula was intentional. When Walt, Mike and Jesse were debating Todd's fate, we saw Todd play with the spider in the jar whilst Walt spoke of 'controlling' Todd and the secret. The next time we see a tarantula on screen, it's roaming free and crawling menacingly towards Jesse, which is significant as earlier in the episode Todd told of the train heist, and thus, the secret was out.

I am convinced that the tarantula was symbolising the train heist secret coming back to haunt Walt and Jesse, or maybe even simpler that Todd and the Nazi-gang were coming for Jesse.

It's amazing what a second viewing can do! :D
 
I've thought about this more today, Irwin, and I'm convinced that it is significant. We've got to the stage now where every detail, no matter how minor it appears, matters. The inclusion of that tarantula was intentional. When Walt, Mike and Jesse were debating Todd's fate, we saw Todd play with the spider in the jar whilst Walt spoke of 'controlling' Todd and the secret. The next time we see a tarantula on screen, it's roaming free and crawling menacingly towards Jesse, which is significant as earlier in the episode Todd told of the train heist, and thus, the secret was out.

I am convinced that the tarantula was symbolising the train heist secret coming back to haunt Walt and Jesse, or maybe even simpler that Todd and the Nazi-gang were coming for Jesse.

It's amazing what a second viewing can do! :D


Yeah, Todd and the gang have to have a shot at Jesse now. Perhaps at Walt's command?

There's no love lost between Todd and Jesse anyway if you remember the punch.
 
I don't know, I still think it's a wild assumption to make. What proof does Jesse have that Walt was behind the poisoning of Brock? He has none. Hell, even the audience have no proof that Walt was behind it. All we had to go on was the camerawork hinting at the Lily of the Valley plant in Walt's back garden (and the gun pointing to it when Walt was playing his version of 'Spin the Bottle'). For all we know, this could be another 'witty' red herring from those oh-so-cunning writers.

I am enjoying the new episodes as major events are happening in quick succession, but this goes against the nature of the show in my opinion. Maybe if you'd waited for a year when S05A finished before viewing these new ones, you wouldn't mind, but I re-watched the entire series again only two weeks before the new episodes aired and the difference in pacing between these episodes and the rest is extraordinary.

I know others disagree on this one, but I'm not buying the reasons for Jesse's latest meltdown. It's a fanciful stretch for Jesse to blame Walt for poisoning Brock. He knows that ricin wasn't involved as the police released Jesse from custody for this exact reason. He seems to be pinning it on Walt just because Huell lifted the dope from him in Saul's office. Even if Huell lifted the ricin cigarette, what proof does Jesse have that Walt poisoned Brock? Did Jesse even question Brock as to how he came into contact with the plant? Surely that would have been a start?

I think the writers/directors deliberately left out the scene depicting how Brock got poisoned to leave themselves "outs" in future. They even left out an explanation as to how the poisoning took place. How could Walt, if he did do it, have gained access to the boy without being noticed? I would not at all be surprised if the notion that Walt poisoned Brock turned out to be a red herring, despite us being led to believe it was true all along.


He doesn't have proof that Walt poisoned Brock, but it is the logical conclusion from Jesse's point of view.

Jesse now knows that:
a) Heull lifted the ricin from him, which (it's safe to assume) would only have happened under Walt's direction.
b) Walt was manipulating him when he said that Gus had poisoned Brock with the ricin. Jesse now knows that Walt was lying about this as it was Walt who actually had the ricin.
c) Walt obviously benefited from Gus being dead.
d) Walt planted the ricin in his apartmnent.
d) Brock definitely wasn't poisoned with ricin, he was poisoned with Lily of the Valley.

That's what Jesse now knows for sure. However, none of that could have happened if Brock hadn't taken the Lily of the Valley. Jesse would never have suspected ricin was used, he'd never have suspected Walt of poising Brock, he'd never have been convinced it was Gus, Guys would never have been killed. All of these events (which he now knows Walt manipulated to suit his own ends) depend on Brock getting poisoned with Lily of the Valley in the first place.

So, Jesse either thinks that a) Brock just happened to poison himself with Lily of the Valley at a time that conveniently fitted in with Walt's manipulation (which had already begun at this stage with Heull taking the ricin), or b) that Walt had poisoned Brock with Lily of the Valley to spark off this chain of events. From Jesse's point of view (with everything he now knows about Walt), option b is the logical conclusion.
 
I don't know, I still think it's a wild assumption to make. What proof does Jesse have that Walt was behind the poisoning of Brock?

I know others disagree on this one, but I'm not buying the reasons for Jesse's latest meltdown. It's a fanciful stretch for Jesse to blame Walt for poisoning Brock. He seems to be pinning it on Walt just because Huell lifted the dope from him in Saul's office. Even if Huell lifted the ricin cigarette, what proof does Jesse have that Walt poisoned Brock? Did Jesse even question Brock as to how he came into contact with the plant? Surely that would have been a start?

I think the writers/directors deliberately left out the scene depicting how Brock got poisoned to leave themselves "outs" in future. They even left out an explanation as to how the poisoning took place. How could Walt, if he did do it, have gained access to the boy without being noticed? I would not at all be surprised if the notion that Walt poisoned Brock turned out to be a red herring, despite us being led to believe it was true all along.


Walt really did poison Brock, or at least had Saul do it.

I don't think it's a big stretch that Jesse would come to the conclusion that Walt and Saul were in on it. I knew it was going to happen when he started searching his pockets, and when he pulled out the cigarettes it became more clear to him then. He may knew something was up, especially with the Walt playing Jesse scene earlier in the episode, but he didn't have a car and had some time to think about it by the time he walked to Sauls office.

He was also pretty sure that Walt did do it to start with and came very close to shooting him in the face, only Walt played him like a fiddle.

Saul also said in the last episode that he didn't know the scale of what he was doing, and he said in another episode in season 5a or 5b, that he did it for Walt.

Also, there is this video:



It's a bit long and up it's own arse at times, but it does cover a lot of the points.
 
It's amazing what a second viewing can do! :D


The spider was there to serve as a reminder to Jesse about the killing of the kid, for when Walt plays him (again). Todd kept the spider as a souvenir after the kid was killed, it was in the jar when he got it.

I don't think it's fortelling anything. For someone who's watched it twice you come to some mad conclusions.

Apparently it was Baltic when that scene was shot, (Walt and Jesse scene with the spider) as it was really early in the morning in winter. Triva of the day.
 
Walt was manipulating him when he said that Gus had poisoned Brock with the ricin. Jesse now knows that Walt was lying about this as it was Walt who actually had the ricin.


What other conclusion was Walt supposed to come to? It actually made perfect sense at the time that Gus could have been in on it. Let's not forget that Gus promised Jesse to his face that no other kids were to be involved in the operation. The very next morning, the kid who shot Combo for Gus' goons winds up dead. It was only logical that Walt would suggest that maybe he was involved in Brock's demise as well.

Also, Walt only hypothesised that Gus poisoned Gus. He never said that he did or that he had definitive proof of it. He presented Jesse with a very plausible explanation for the chain of events that led up to it (the method and execution of Brock's poisoning was never made aware to the audience so we don't know either), and that's a hell of a lot more concrete than what Jesse is going off on at the moment.

Walt supposedly orders Huell to lift the ricin cigarette off Jesse. Jesse instantly thinks that Walt poisoned Brock. Really?
 
You remind me of the Skyler rimjobbers, Locke (in that people making excuses for her behaviour because she "doesn't fall for Walt's lies". The audience knows that he's lying, she doesn't for a long, long time in the show). We know that Walt ordered Huell to lift the ricin from Jesse. But Jesse, a reknowned doper who up to that point in the series has displayed hardly any cop-on, realises this in some moment of clarity when all he has done - for all he knows - is misplaced his dope.

The whole theme of central characters coming to instantaneous conclusion in these three episodes is beyond annoying considering we waited seasons for anything dramatic to happen on the Hank/Heisenberg front. It's just ridiculous.
 
What other conclusion was Walt supposed to come to? It actually made perfect sense at the time that Gus could have been in on it. Let's not forget that Gus promised Jesse to his face that no other kids were to be involved in the operation. The very next morning, the kid who shot Combo for Gus' goons winds up dead. It was only logical that Walt would suggest that maybe he was involved in Brock's demise as well.

Also, Walt only hypothesised that Gus poisoned Gus. He never said that he did or that he had definitive proof of it. He presented Jesse with a very plausible explanation for the chain of events that led up to it (the method and execution of Brock's poisoning was never made aware to the audience so we don't know either), and that's a hell of a lot more concrete than what Jesse is going off on at the moment.

Walt supposedly orders Huell to lift the ricin cigarette off Jesse. Jesse instantly thinks that Walt poisoned Brock. Really?

But we know for sure that Walt was deliberately lying about Gus poisoning Brock with ricin because Walt had the ricin. We know Walt definitely had the ricin as we later saw him plant it in Jesse's apartment. Why would Walt think Gus poisoned Brock with ricin that was, at that time, in Walt's possession?
 
But we know for sure that Walt was deliberately lying about Gus poisoning Brock with ricin because Walt had the ricin. We know Walt definitely had the ricin as we later saw him plant it in Jesse's apartment. Why would Walt think Gus poisoned Brock with ricin that was, at that time, in Walt's possession?

Walt was lying to Jesse about the ricin as we know he had it. Jesse, however, didn't. The 'ricin' that Walt planted back at Jesse's house was a harmless replicate that Walt had made specifically to trick Jesse into thinking that the cigarette was in the hoover all along.

I completely understand that Jesse realises that Walt was playing him. I have no problem with that. What I have a major issue with, however, is the remarkable conclusion that Jesse comes to when he just assumes that Walt poisoned Brock with ricin. How in feck's name can he think that when a) Brock was poisoned by Lily of the Valley, and b) How could Walt have pulled it off without being caught? Not to mention the huge plot hole of nobody asking Brock how he managed to ingest the poisonous plant in the first place.

As I said, I suspect the writers/directors deliberately left the scene of Brock's poisoning out so they'd have options going forward. By not explicitly revealing how Brock was poisoned, or by who, they gave themselves an "out", and the apparent culpability of Walt could be a red herring all along. Unlikely, maybe, but a possibility.

My main gripe is with Jesse blaming Walt for Brock's poisoning. He's now about to burn down the man's house based on Huell lifting his dope from Goodman's office. It's an enormous conclusion to jump to. I love Breaking Bad's cliffhangers as much as anyone, but sometimes I think Gilligan and co. are trying to be too clever, and this is a case in point.
 
nahealai, you're just wrong here.


Why does Jesse keep shouting at Goodman in his office, "Mr. White poisoned Brock with the ricin Huell lifted from me"? (Paraphrasing there, but he definitely said "poisoned with ricin".)

It's ridiculous as Jesse was held in custody by the police over the incident but was only released when the doctors confirmed the ricin wasn't involved. Of course, Jesse could have overlooked that major fact as he was in such a rage, but it's a plot hole in my view.

The fact the central characters are jumping to earth-shattering conclusions on a whim is disappointing too, especially from a show that made its name on slow-burning storylines.