Not exactly the case in 2010 tho - Samuel, Veron, Masch, Aguero, Di Maria, Tevez, etc...
Best post-Maradona player (peak level)
- Thread starter Hound Dog
- Start date
Not exactly the case in 2010 tho - Samuel, Veron, Masch, Aguero, Di Maria, Tevez, etc...
i can't imagine their is much debate beyond Messi.
behind him i'd probably say Ronaldo(Portuguese), Ronaldo(Brazilian), Ronaldinho, Zidane.
behind him i'd probably say Ronaldo(Portuguese), Ronaldo(Brazilian), Ronaldinho, Zidane.
I never really see Zidane mentioned much when it comes to great players.
Not only did he win the world cup and euro championships with France, he scored in the finals too.
Who can forget that scissor kick against leverkusen in the CL final in Glasgow to win it? The goal that made more money from world wide marketing that the fee paid to Juventus for his services.
Not only did he win the world cup and euro championships with France, he scored in the finals too.
Who can forget that scissor kick against leverkusen in the CL final in Glasgow to win it? The goal that made more money from world wide marketing that the fee paid to Juventus for his services.
Last edited:
Obviously because attackers have been much worse as well. Less stamina, less speed, less strength, technique is debatable. In addition shoes and balls were heavier/worse. No player from 30 years ago could play toplevel nowadays in the stage he was back then!
Messi
Ronaldo(*his peak was when he was 22. We'll never know what he would have been without the injuries. Probably the greatest ever)
Cristiano-Zidane-Van Basten
Romario-Ronaldinho
Baggio-Rivaldo
Ronaldo(*his peak was when he was 22. We'll never know what he would have been without the injuries. Probably the greatest ever)
Cristiano-Zidane-Van Basten
Romario-Ronaldinho
Baggio-Rivaldo
So guys what about Van Basten 87-89.. or does he count as being in Maradona's period.
Peak Messi, easily.
Very close between the other three though, and while C. Ronaldo is clearly the best goal scorer out of them, the other Ronaldo and Ronaldinho had much more to their game. So, a tie between those three, or at a push, Ronaldinho in second place and both Ronaldos after him.
Very close between the other three though, and while C. Ronaldo is clearly the best goal scorer out of them, the other Ronaldo and Ronaldinho had much more to their game. So, a tie between those three, or at a push, Ronaldinho in second place and both Ronaldos after him.
But he didn't. One league title, no UCL in 10+ years playing for Psv, Barca, Inter, Real and Milano is hardly dominating.
From a pure subjective standpoint I'd concur but it's hard to make a claim for that using numbers. In the end Messi broke every record possible and his overall skillset might be even more complete than Ronaldo's was. The letter still edges it for me though because he had that power and tenacity that you rarely get to see these days and comparable skill and vision to Messi or Dinho. He had a very special aura. As soon as he had the ball it felt like his opponents were bricking it, comparable to what Messi does to today's opposition. The difference being that the defenders of the 90's and early 00's had a lot more freedom in terms of making "contact" with the striker. Most of the time even the greatest defenders of their generation like Nesta, Maldini, Costacurta, Cannavaro or Thuram - a quality of defenders today's game is lacking - had no choice but to chop Ronaldo down to stop him. Messi gets his fair share of fouls as well but these days heavy contact is less frequent and less extreme because yellows and reds are easily handed out to protect the players. I think that's a good thing actually. Less physicality makes for a more fluid, faster and asthetically pleasing game. Football evolved in that regard and since it got easier on the eye it appeals to an even wider audience, which generates more money. The state of the pitches improved as well. The balls used today are a fair bit lighter and travel faster than those used during the 90's.
Since both players played in different eras and leagues it's very hard to make a fair comparison. One could take into consideration that during the four seasons Ronaldo played up to his knee injury (from age 18 to 21) he produced better numbers (a goal every 102 min) than Messi (a goal every 139 min) did at the same age, and that Messi's sick stats came at the same time he had players like Iniesta, Xavi, Alves, Puyol, Eto'o, Henry, Ibrahimovic (each a legend of the game in their own right) etc. beside him at their respective peaks, and Barcelona completely dominated Club Football unlike any team did during the 40 years prior. Of course they wouldn't have been just as dominant without Messi, but it's hard to imagine him repeating those feats under different circumstances in a less dominant side and in an era where defenders would have just physically abused him and got off with a warning.
I started watching football more frequently between 1988 and 1990 and the first players to really fascinate me were Van Basten, Bergkamp and Matthäus, later Romario, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Zidane and Ronaldinho. They were all very special players and among those Ronaldo still managed to stand out for me. In the end its probably more a thing of personal preference, but at his absolute best Ronaldo was pretty much unstoppable, even with his shirt being pulled and his legs being kicked he just plowed through back lines made of world class defenders. As much as I try to imagine it I just don't see Messi being able to do the same... to play in a lesser side and still harrass defenders constantly despite them being allowed to push him around... I just don't see it. I could be wrong though.
It's not that Ronaldo didn't dominate - it's just that the top talent during that time was pretty evenly spread among a wide variety of clubs and no club dominated to the extent the current European Superclubs like Barca, Madrid and Bayern do. And we don't talk about Ronaldo's time at Real and Milan here. His knees were shot long before he arrived at those clubs. Basically from '98/'99 onward his body was done.
Last edited:
Van Basten 87-92 was just an exceptional player, up there with the original Ronaldo as the best no. 9 ever.
6' 3" tall, strong, lightening quick, great in the air, could play with his back to goal, could mix it in the physical stakes. Scored tap-ins like Lineker, long range screamers, free-kicks, could create chances for himself, could beat players etc
Just a phenomenal striker.
What you say about Messi and Maradona is more down to players' personalities and the times they played in. Some thrive in adverse conditions and get bored by stability, finding ways to ruin their career. Others thrive more in stable, familiar environments. Maybe Messi couldn't have done what Maradona did at Napoli. But would Maradona had been able to play, like Messi, insane football for 10+ years at a single club? Probably not.
At Barcelona, the club provides the platform, the comfort, and the education. It's unreasonable to expect Messi to have a footballing personality in the opposite way to how he was brought up since he was a kid in La Masia. He was brought up having the notion that it is not a single player's role to lift the team, but more the team's role to lift the players, in order for them to the best versions of themselves.
This whole talk about one man teams is rubbish anyway. There is no such thing. At the end of the day, in football there are many instances where it is up to each player to do his job and contribute to the team. In the absence of those players, one genius (call it Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo or whoever) is not enough.
Performance and efficiency.
Taking post-Maradona as post anyone who was at their peak during his career at the top - so ruling out the likes of Baresi, Matthaus and Van Basten - and peak as best performance over a 3-year period, I'd go for the following:
1. Ronaldo 1996-1999
2. Lionel Messi 2009-2012
3. Ronaldinho 2003-2006
4. Rivaldo 1998-2001
5. C. Ronaldo 2011-2014
6. Xavi 2008-2011
7. Zidane 1999-2002
8. Iniesta 2009-2012
9. Baggio 1991-1994
10. Romario 1993-1996
1. Ronaldo 1996-1999
2. Lionel Messi 2009-2012
3. Ronaldinho 2003-2006
4. Rivaldo 1998-2001
5. C. Ronaldo 2011-2014
6. Xavi 2008-2011
7. Zidane 1999-2002
8. Iniesta 2009-2012
9. Baggio 1991-1994
10. Romario 1993-1996
Last edited:
It is very difficult to compare legends of different generation. All the four have some excellent qualities but i find it very hard to compare based on the following premise,
2 different generations
different football
different occasions
different turf conditions
different aura and worst of all,
different kinds of opponents. Football is a very tight sport now, every inch of the turf is used and it's unbelievable.
2 different generations
different football
different occasions
different turf conditions
different aura and worst of all,
different kinds of opponents. Football is a very tight sport now, every inch of the turf is used and it's unbelievable.
Yep best player ever. He had it all.
Explosiveness, technique, playmaking, finishing, two footedness, flair etc. The perfectly crafted striker. I still watch compilations of his pre injury matches or old matches themselves & always shake my head in disbelief at the things he did.
One of the greatest individual games ever.
From a pure subjective standpoint I'd concur but it's hard to make a claim for that using numbers. In the end Messi broke every record possible and his overall skillset might be even more complete than Ronaldo's was. The letter still edges it for me though because he had that power and tenacity that you rarely get to see these days and comparable skill and vision to Messi or Dinho. He had a very special aura. As soon as he had the ball it felt like his opponents were bricking it, comparable to what Messi does to today's opposition. The difference being that the defenders of the 90's and early 00's had a lot more freedom in terms of making "contact" with the striker. Most of the time even the greatest defenders of their generation like Nesta, Maldini, Costacurta, Cannavaro or Thuram - a quality of defenders today's game is lacking - had no choice but to chop Ronaldo down to stop him. Messi gets his fair share of fouls as well but these days heavy contact is less frequent and less extreme because yellows and reds are easily handed out to protect the players. I think that's a good thing actually. Less physicality makes for a more fluid, faster and asthetically pleasing game. Football evolved in that regard and since it got easier on the eye it appeals to an even wider audience, which generates more money. The state of the pitches improved as well. The balls used today are a fair bit lighter and travel faster than those used during the 90's.
Since both players played in different eras and leagues it's very hard to make a fair comparison. One could take into consideration that during the four seasons Ronaldo played up to his knee injury (from age 18 to 21) he produced better numbers (a goal every 102 min) than Messi (a goal every 139 min) did at the same age, and that Messi's sick stats came at the same time he had players like Iniesta, Xavi, Alves, Puyol, Eto'o, Henry, Ibrahimovic (each a legend of the game in their own right) etc. beside him at their respective peaks, and Barcelona completely dominated Club Football unlike any team did during the 40 years prior. Of course they wouldn't have been just as dominant without Messi, but it's hard to imagine him repeating those feats under different circumstances in a less dominant side and in an era where defenders would have just physically abused him and got off with a warning.
I started watching football more frequently between 1988 and 1990 and the first players to really fascinate me were Van Basten, Bergkamp and Matthäus, later Romario, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Zidane and Ronaldinho. They were all very special players and among those Ronaldo still managed to stand out for me. In the end its probably more a thing of personal preference, but at his absolute best Ronaldo was pretty much unstoppable, even with his shirt being pulled and his legs being kicked he just plowed through back lines made of world class defenders. As much as I try to imagine it I just don't see Messi being able to do the same... to play in a lesser side and still harrass defenders constantly despite them being allowed to push him around... I just don't see it. I could be wrong though.
It's not that Ronaldo didn't dominate - it's just that the top talent during that time was pretty evenly spread among a wide variety of clubs and no club dominated to the extent the current European Superclubs like Barca, Madrid and Bayern do. And we don't talk about Ronaldo's time at Real and Milan here. His knees were shot long before he arrived at those clubs. Basically from '98/'99 onward his body was done.
The other thing about Ronaldo was the teams he played in were nowhere near Barce's level. Inter spent shedloads but played pretty shit football and their offensive tactic seemed to be 'give it to Ronaldo, keep the rest of the lads back and let him try to beat 5 players and score'. At least it seemed like that at the time. Bergkamp was shite playing for them lot because their game was so defensive. It's a shame he moved to Inter looking back, Ronaldo in a more expansive team would of been on fire.
Just to think his career was said to be over circa '98 after his knee collapsed. Everything after he wasn't nearly the same athlete.
Generally I agree with that list.
Probably I'd swap Xavi and Rivaldo. To me Xavi has to be top 5 for what he has done both internationally and domestically. I'd also have C.Ronaldo above Rivaldo and Laudrup instead of Baggio.
Apart from those it's spot on.
Peak Ronaldinho for me
Yeah. Those are the same areas where I wasn't fully convinced. I actually had Laudrup in there instead of Baggio, then changed my mind. Not entirely satisfied with Xavi's ranking, he should be higher, but it was difficult to establish whose peak was weaker than his.
Any player being comfortably better than Messi at any age is just untrue.
Peak level in a season has to be Ronaldo Fenómeno in 1997 if I'm not mistaken. Serie A was incredible and he dominated it.
If that Ronaldo replaced Messi in that Barça team in 2012, I would expect the same kind of numbers.
If that Ronaldo replaced Messi in that Barça team in 2012, I would expect the same kind of numbers.
Jordan Henderson
I would agree with that if Messi wouldn't have started a lot of the actions he ended up finishing in the box 10 seconds later. This is the part where Messi is underrated here. Between 2009 and 2012, Messi was often at the origin of the plays that ended up in a goal scored by him. So if you take Messi and replace him with another player, you wont have as many goals, because a lot of the actions and passes that led to those goal scoring opportunities wouldn't even exist anymore.
Messi at his peak very rarely scored goals in which he had no part in the build-up phase. And that is why peak Messi was better than Ronaldo at his peak. He was a master creator and a master scorer at the same time, and he would alternate between those two roles seamlessly. Ronaldo was a complete striker, but he was not a no10. Messi is also a passing genius at his peak.
The physicality of that defending is so brutal compared to what we see in the modern game. He's getting lumps kicked out of him.
To be fair I remember Chelsea being very physical with the very young Messi and he handled it very well, but Ronaldo was getting this treatment regularly.. no wonder his body eventually gave way.
The Ronaldo from Brazil.
Not only then. In more or less every clasico with Mourinho Messi was kicked to pieces. Without the ball too.
Peak Ronaldo for me, but it was too short to compete with Messi's entire body of work. So you would have to say Messi was the more influential and consistently dominant player.
In fact, on that basis the only ones he compares to are Pelé and Di Stéfano.
In fact, on that basis the only ones he compares to are Pelé and Di Stéfano.
Ronaldo just had something about him that Messi or C Ronaldo don't have. When he was in a team for club or for Brazil you just thought F'kin hell. Those silver boots as well when playing in the yellow shirt. Power, pace, skill, heading, shoots, he was mental. Cristiano Ronaldo has proven more than Messi in terms of different teams/leagues etc but Ronaldo was a whole new level, he destroyed PSV, Barca, Inter, Real, Brazil at world cups. He was a beast and a proper striker of old as well, none of this winger stuff or wide player trying to be striker. He was an up top target man.
Yeah Messi's scored 73 goals or whatever but he's always in a strong Barca team, taking all the free kicks, penalties and doing what he likes. I'd have Ronaldo 98 any day of the week.
Yeah Messi's scored 73 goals or whatever but he's always in a strong Barca team, taking all the free kicks, penalties and doing what he likes. I'd have Ronaldo 98 any day of the week.
Messi is the best ever based on any criteria. Has there ever been a player that can combine being the best playmaker in the world, the best dribbler in the world, and also break all the scoring records as he did? Its why hes always a step above ronaldo at his peak for me. He was gifted from birth and has literally every part of his game on the ball as close to perfect as possible. Ronaldo has done amazing to match him in productivity but isnt on the same level when it comes to sheer brilliance on the ball.
It seems pretty clear that this is a generational divide to me. Those who watched Ronaldo's peak are, by and large, going to pick him, whilst those who did not, will pick Messi and find it inconceivable that any player could be rated above him.
That's what I meant when i wrote that defenders got away with pretty much everything back then. Just look at that tackle from behind by Jonk at 2:15. Studs up from behind not playing the ball at all. That's a red 9 times out of 10 in today's game. Ref smiling and laughing
At 4:32 Davids lays into him with the ball 10 ft away already. Not even a verbal warning.
At 7:35 De Boer hits Ronaldo's foot first with his left (going in from behind) while somehow clearing the ball with his right through Ronaldo's legs (studs up)... a stonewall pen and a red by today's standards. Ref awards a corner.
Back then all that counted was playing the ball, so by those standards that tackle from De Boer was a fine piece of defending.
During comparisons between top midfielders or strikers of today and days gone by many people that like to bring up numbers tend to forget that the lack of protection for technical players back then limited their output greatly.
for me
Messi
Zidane
Ronaldhino
Ronaldo
but not much in it. they are all incredible
Messi
Zidane
Ronaldhino
Ronaldo
but not much in it. they are all incredible
Is that even a question...
El Fenomeno !
always felt Ronaldo was the best, although i do accept that it's become extremely hard to make an argument that any footballer was/is 'better' than Messi.
The most impressive thing about Ronaldo for me is the way he 'arrived'. I strongly suspect that he was probably the best player in the world at the age of 14 or so, just undiscovered.
Of all greats, Ronaldo is the only player I can think of who never 'improved'. He simply arrived. He was the best player in the world as a teenager, and remained the best player in the world for most of his career at any point where he could string 10 games together. Messi got better and better over the years. Ronaldo was that good from the beginning, it was wierd. He en maintained that level for years.
I know Messi is a great passer, and probably the best playmaker ever, but Ronaldo was different- the closest thing I've seen to a one-man attack. I don't have too many memories of great link play as such. He just got th ball and was an immediate and direct threat to the opposition goal. And that was by himself. Not because he did one-two's. He didn't need to hold the ball up. Didn't need to bring people into play. He was the attack, all by himself.
It really upsets me that he doesn't get his dues. The game has been so statistically driven for the last decade due to the race between Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi (although most of us know that it has not, at any point in the past 6 or so years been a 'race', Messi is definitely the better footballer). Ronaldo' greatest trick was to drag Messi into a stats fight with him. When throw of them are done, I imagine more normality will resume. Players can score 20-25 a season with a great all-round game and be consigned best in the world, even more than another who scores 32 or so.
The most impressive thing about Ronaldo for me is the way he 'arrived'. I strongly suspect that he was probably the best player in the world at the age of 14 or so, just undiscovered.
Of all greats, Ronaldo is the only player I can think of who never 'improved'. He simply arrived. He was the best player in the world as a teenager, and remained the best player in the world for most of his career at any point where he could string 10 games together. Messi got better and better over the years. Ronaldo was that good from the beginning, it was wierd. He en maintained that level for years.
I know Messi is a great passer, and probably the best playmaker ever, but Ronaldo was different- the closest thing I've seen to a one-man attack. I don't have too many memories of great link play as such. He just got th ball and was an immediate and direct threat to the opposition goal. And that was by himself. Not because he did one-two's. He didn't need to hold the ball up. Didn't need to bring people into play. He was the attack, all by himself.
It really upsets me that he doesn't get his dues. The game has been so statistically driven for the last decade due to the race between Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi (although most of us know that it has not, at any point in the past 6 or so years been a 'race', Messi is definitely the better footballer). Ronaldo' greatest trick was to drag Messi into a stats fight with him. When throw of them are done, I imagine more normality will resume. Players can score 20-25 a season with a great all-round game and be consigned best in the world, even more than another who scores 32 or so.
I never seen peak Ronaldo but the best I have seen is Messi by a big margin.
Zidane, Iniesta, Kaka and Ronaldinho are the next best I have seen at their peaks.
When those players turned it on they were unplayable and made their team mates perform to a higher level as well.
Zidane, Iniesta, Kaka and Ronaldinho are the next best I have seen at their peaks.
When those players turned it on they were unplayable and made their team mates perform to a higher level as well.
Obviously Messi...
Ridiculous quality because 2 teams had good defenses? Serie A has always been somewhat a defensive league but recent football has been more tactical and for a period every single team parked the bus against Barcelona.
Messi every time - he is by far the greatest player I've ever seen and in my opinion beats even Maradona at his peak.
Nah, thats more than a little unfair to conclude, plenty of us saw Ronaldos entire career post Holland and still pick Messi, for a variety of reasons that don't need to be mentioned again.