Messi and it's not even close.
Best post-Maradona player (peak level)
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Best player at what exactly? Your question isvery vague. I gather a lot of people here where not alive during Maradonas time but he was seen much like ROnaldinho was seen today. Before 1986, he was seen as a very talented player that was wasting his potential. The 1986 WC essentially deified him to mythic proportions.
In terms of attacking players, Messi is by far the best and is not even close. He is arguably the best finisher, arguably the best final ball passer and undoubtedly the best dribbler. Very few players across histroy combined all three and applied them with such ruthless precision as he has. To some of the people saying Cruijff is not in the GOAT debate, look at any list and in a few of them Cruijff is ranked higher than Maradona. The 5 kings at this moment in time are Pele, Maradona, Cruijff, Di Stefano and Messi for a reason. Cristiano even at his best has never approached Messi's level. Peak performance wise, I judge that as the effect on the whole game I'll include Ronaldinho and Possibly Ronaldo de Lima, although I beleive by the time he became a more complete attacker, his powers diminished vastly in other areas.
In terms of attacking players, Messi is by far the best and is not even close. He is arguably the best finisher, arguably the best final ball passer and undoubtedly the best dribbler. Very few players across histroy combined all three and applied them with such ruthless precision as he has. To some of the people saying Cruijff is not in the GOAT debate, look at any list and in a few of them Cruijff is ranked higher than Maradona. The 5 kings at this moment in time are Pele, Maradona, Cruijff, Di Stefano and Messi for a reason. Cristiano even at his best has never approached Messi's level. Peak performance wise, I judge that as the effect on the whole game I'll include Ronaldinho and Possibly Ronaldo de Lima, although I beleive by the time he became a more complete attacker, his powers diminished vastly in other areas.
No chance is Cristiano better than R9 for me. Messi perhaps, Cristiano, no chance. I think rating him as such almost doesn't require watching the players. It requires simply reading a text book and seeing that this player scored x amount of goals and b scored this much.
Ronaldo has developed into a great goalscorer at Real, but surely anyone can see that he lacks the overall ability of Ronaldo. Cristiano pretty much became an extremely selfish player who was driven, in my opinion, to create this very debate - discussion by people who will only see the numbers later on once all the football has been played. He also plays for a team that has gotten a ridiculous amount of penalties over the years. I think a couple of seasons ago, Ronaldo scored 17 penalties alone. Of course, when it's all said and done, records will just read '55 goals 13/14'.
It is even working today in that people are seriously trying to drive some sort of debate of who is a better footballer between him and Messi. There is literally only a 'debate' because hey are the only two players who score the amount they do in the top leagues. The reality is, Messi could score 35 a season and still be better. There is absolutely no chance Ronaldo gets mentioned in the same breath as Messi scoring 35 a season. He'd be seen as marginally better than Bale or Lewandowski or whatever.
I know R9 was a great and I couldn't tell you how many goals he scored. I just know he scored goals, of course, but his raw ability is a one off.
Fat Ronaldo, no question.
Ronaldo is a bit of a 'what-if' story, but thankfully- he was still great for long enough to show that he belongs up there. If not for the injuries, there would be no debate. Moving clubs a lot didn't help either. Put him at one of the top few teams in the world who was able to win league's every year for a 5 or 6 year period and he'd have cemented his legacy more. He didn't have the chance to build a dynasty anywhere though.
Still, while he was playing, he was definitely considered a great. He's called a Phenomenon for a reason. Most people felt they had never seen anything like him. He won the Balon'Dor in the same year you referred to him as a cautionary tale. He was also still very good at Madrid, even despite his injuries - but his Inter and Barcelona best was ridiculous.
Come on, some serious underrating of cristiano going on here. Cristiano in his pomp was a marvel, maybe he never had a single game quite as insane as dinho demolition of madrid at the bernabeu, but in his peak he was quite clearly the better player. If we define peak in terms of single game performance, than Savicevic has to be ranked right there with Maradona and maybe above the likes of Messi or Pelé
R9 was undisputably better than cristiano though in terms of peak
R9 was undisputably better than cristiano though in terms of peak
Cristiano has been great. He's been comfortably the second best player of his generation. But he belongs in no Greatest of all Time debates, unless we are talking of 'Best Madrid player ever' or 'Best United player ever'
In my honest opinion, however, stats or no stats - he has never been better than Messi, at least not since he wore a white shirt. His best, for me, was when he won the CL with United in 2008. He scored 42 that season, which is a great number, but less than his seasons at Real I believe. An algorithm would say it wasn't his best season, but he was the total package that year, and better than Messi, who was still only 20 or 21 at the time, and hadn't fully peaked. Since Messi matured, he's been the better player. And considerably so, in my opinion. Messi gets 50 a year, but looks like he 'just happens' to score goals in his overall effort of helping his team. He's not propelled by the self-obsessed need to get on the scoresheet in order to be the leading scorer. He very, very regularly squares the ball to a teammate for a tap-in even if he's through on goal if he thinks it's a better chance of scoring. He just scores 50 goals because he's that good. Suarez is the one who is probably in the team just to score, and before there were the likes of Eto'o and Ibrahimovic. You get the impression the other forwards are in the Real team to serve Ronaldo.
I also think it's wrong to say he was 'quite clearly better' than Ronaldinho at his best, again, unless we are using the simple algorithm which leads us to '50 goals in more than 26'.
Personally, the one I'd choose to watch above all others is Zidane. No other player has come close to making me love the beautiful game as much as he did.
Point with Cristiano is the sheer and admirable willpower to build himself up to the very peak, both physically and technically... just see the clumsy teenager he was in Portugal... not a chosen one for sure, in this very similar to Rivaldo and for his demeanour too.
I'm so open minded towards life in general. Football is great. I love hearing different opinions and views on players, teams etc
Honestly, I give all views the time of day because being close minded imo is one of the worst qualities a person can have.
Regarding this topic through - I find it bizarre how everyone cannot see that Messi is the best footballer this universe has ever seen. I do play football although not as often as I used to. I watch it all the time, various leagues. I can't name another man ever who has made me shake my head in disbelief more than Messi. Whether it's a 15 yard run past 3 players, a drop in the hips to beat one man, a half pitch solo run goal - he does it so naturally but at the same time how on earth does he do it? I find myself looking at messi's opponents, whom he's just torn a new one, and convince myself that they could've done better. Then I recall all these times where he has made players from all levels, the best defenders in the game, look like horses. I wish I could experience it in real time, against him on a football pitch because I don't think us fans will ever realise how ridiculouslly good he is. Footballers themselves are very good judges of the best players, to be fair. I would put my money on most of them saying Messi if they have come against him at some point in their career.
Cristiano Ronaldo is incredible. He has dedicated himself completely to football physically and mentally. What he does however is not as mind blowing as Messi. It is almost expected due to his commitment, physical prowess and because he is also a very smart footballer on top.
Brazilian Ronaldo 9 - more mind blowing than Cristiano overall, however the latter is a better player with all things considered. Funny thing is, Ronaldo 9 is my favourite footballer ever. His style alone and showmanship puts him up there with the best ever, but his performances were also incredible.
I am however quite young (early 20s) so haven't really witnessed the likes of Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff. The one I've studied the most of the 3 would be Maradonna because of all players ever, he is the one who people challenge me most with as to being better than Messi. All I can say regarding this is that it is nigh on impossible to compare the two. It's like comparing Tyson and Ali, Sharon Stone in basic instant and Margot Robbie in wolf of wall Street. You just can't do it logically. My opinion of it is that Messi wins - tactics have got better over time as have fitness levels. I actually believe that the level of football is exponentially growing. However, who is to say that a Diego Maradonna born in 1987 wouldn't have gone on to excel with modern fitness and tactics and outperform even Messi? He might have but that is a whole new level of conversation.
Maybe I am a small minded prick.
Honestly, I give all views the time of day because being close minded imo is one of the worst qualities a person can have.
Regarding this topic through - I find it bizarre how everyone cannot see that Messi is the best footballer this universe has ever seen. I do play football although not as often as I used to. I watch it all the time, various leagues. I can't name another man ever who has made me shake my head in disbelief more than Messi. Whether it's a 15 yard run past 3 players, a drop in the hips to beat one man, a half pitch solo run goal - he does it so naturally but at the same time how on earth does he do it? I find myself looking at messi's opponents, whom he's just torn a new one, and convince myself that they could've done better. Then I recall all these times where he has made players from all levels, the best defenders in the game, look like horses. I wish I could experience it in real time, against him on a football pitch because I don't think us fans will ever realise how ridiculouslly good he is. Footballers themselves are very good judges of the best players, to be fair. I would put my money on most of them saying Messi if they have come against him at some point in their career.
Cristiano Ronaldo is incredible. He has dedicated himself completely to football physically and mentally. What he does however is not as mind blowing as Messi. It is almost expected due to his commitment, physical prowess and because he is also a very smart footballer on top.
Brazilian Ronaldo 9 - more mind blowing than Cristiano overall, however the latter is a better player with all things considered. Funny thing is, Ronaldo 9 is my favourite footballer ever. His style alone and showmanship puts him up there with the best ever, but his performances were also incredible.
I am however quite young (early 20s) so haven't really witnessed the likes of Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff. The one I've studied the most of the 3 would be Maradonna because of all players ever, he is the one who people challenge me most with as to being better than Messi. All I can say regarding this is that it is nigh on impossible to compare the two. It's like comparing Tyson and Ali, Sharon Stone in basic instant and Margot Robbie in wolf of wall Street. You just can't do it logically. My opinion of it is that Messi wins - tactics have got better over time as have fitness levels. I actually believe that the level of football is exponentially growing. However, who is to say that a Diego Maradonna born in 1987 wouldn't have gone on to excel with modern fitness and tactics and outperform even Messi? He might have but that is a whole new level of conversation.
Maybe I am a small minded prick.
CR7's peak in terms of overall game influence was 2007-2011 even though his goalscoring records came later.
I would argue that in 2008 he was as good as Ronaldinho and Ronaldo9 ever were.
I would argue that in 2008 he was as good as Ronaldinho and Ronaldo9 ever were.
Incidentally Pele rates Zidane higher than Messi in terms of individual ability at their peaks. Just goes to show there's no right or wrong, it's just the way you see it.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/584/brazil/2013/11/21/4423688/pele-zidane-was-better-than-messi
http://www.goal.com/en/news/584/brazil/2013/11/21/4423688/pele-zidane-was-better-than-messi
Pele also rates El Hadji Diouf....
No one's perfect.
That's because Pele knows a lot about football. And people that know a lot about football also know that the elegance with which Zidane graced the pitch, at his peak, was nothing short of sheer poetry.
Others also had that music in their game like Maradona, Cruyff, Pele..
And even others to a less extent like Henry at times, Bergkamp, Pilro, to name a few. Just weren't overall as influencing as Zizou.
Now Messi and Ronaldo both lack that poetry that seems to become rarer the more the game evolves.
Just my 2 cents.
You're exactly right. I quoted my own post so you can see what I think of Zizou - who is my favourite player of all time, peak or otherwise.
I linked the Pele post as a contrast to all the Messi nominations in this thread (and because I agree with him!) , and then had visions of being flamed, so added that it's all a matter of opinion
.I don't deny Ronaldo's brilliance at all. He was fantastic, and definitely belongs with legends of the game. However my point was that his peak is often taken as he played that way all his career and he did not. He was out of the world fantastic was for about 2 seasons ( 1 and half really) in Barcelona and Inter Milan and a very good player after that. Messi for example did that (and is still doing) for about 8 seasons now. Same with Cristiano who while may be not as aesthetically pleasing in his game play style these days is still an absolutely decisive player for 9/10 seasons now.
Still better players than some of the bums Ronaldo played with in his prime.
The thing is - Ronaldo's level didn't drop in his prime regardless of the team mates he played with. Watching Messi at Argentina and Barcelona is sometimes looking like watching a different player. He doesn't have the same swagger as in that great Barca side. It's not like I'm saying he'll be a flop at a midtable team, far from it, but to me and watching Ronaldo in full force was a notch above. Regardless of the stage or the opponents, they were full of fear facing him. And those are some of the best defenders historically at their absolute best.
People look at the goals scored by Messi and the assists provided, but to me the numbers are really incomparable.
Ronaldo in 97/98 was the one man attack, he was the provider, the playmaker, the striker -all combined in one. And it's not like he had a Jose type of manager either - the instructions usually were - throw him in the deep and get the ball to him. You simply couldn't shut him down.
If we look at the numbers - though not as spectacular as Messi's - in his first season at Inter he scored 25 in Seria A - the next 3 top scorers in the league put up 17 combined.
^^^ Milan home and away - against Desailly, Maldini, Costacurta - some of the very best defensive players in history - 21 years old at the time. If he didn't got those injuries we would hardly have a conversation who would be the best ever.
Nice piece on him:
Lot of peers who he had played with with their say on the matter.
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Messi whichever year he scored 70 odd goals. Everytime i think about one player scoring 70+ in a season it's get more irdiculous.
I'm sure that is a 'club + country' stat. And over a 12 month calendar year, not a 9 month season. Still, very impressive stat.
At their peak, for me, it's:
1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Christiano
4. Ronaldinho
With a big gap between first and second, to be honest.
1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Christiano
4. Ronaldinho
With a big gap between first and second, to be honest.
Nope, it's a season. The 2011/12 season. He scored 91 goals over the calendar year in 2012.
And it's only a Club stat.
Im 55 and watched all of them and to say Messi is head and shoulders above them is over the top.
Its easy to assume that mate as its a ridiculous stat. But it's actually true, he scored 73 goals for Barca in 2011-12. Bonkers.
I think he was brilliant for a bit longer than a year and a half. It is one of the biggest travesties in football that injuries robbed him of so much football, but I don't think the good period of his career was short enough to say his greatness can't be quantified.
Similar to Van Basten. Injuries robbed him of some years, but thankfully, he was still great for long enough for us to not say he 'could' have been great. Ronaldo won the Balon D'or 3 or 4 times and starred in two World Cups, was the highest ever WC goalscorer for many years. He's a bonafide great.
His stats were still impressive, while being far more aesthetically pleasing than Cristiano. @Enigma_87 point was very relevant in how he 'only' got 25 in his first season at Inter, while the next 3 scorers were tied on 17 each. His dominance over the league was similar to the greats of today. We're talking 50% more goals than the nearest. I imagine they would look very different to Cristiano's 30 tap-ins, pens and headers too.
Longevity is a little overrated I think. In my opinion, any sample of 3 years or so is long enough to consider a player a great, if that level was the best.
Ridiculous in that case. TBH, I love Messi anyway, he's head and shoulders above Cristiano for me. I won't argue with anyone who thinks he's better than R9, although R9 is my personal favourite, and better than Pele and whoever else in my opinion.
Personally I think Pele is better. IMO he's the best player ever.
If we take longevity into account Messi is better and that clouds a bit the judgement for the so called relative peak. If we're going by the topic and peak only I'd take Ronaldo, because he has done it against the very best defenders in the game and was literally unstoppable against defenders like Nesta, Maldini, Desailly, etc...
Haven't seen a better player than Messi in 2011/12, his performances against Madrid in 2011's CL semis and against us in the final made me realise this guy is unplayable, there was no way of stopping him.
Every generation has their star. There's research to show that the intensity of what people experience peaks at around the age of 17. And while there will be exceptions, the majority of folk will side with whichever player was most dominant when they were at their most impressionable. Where there are exceptions, it's often because we have better access to watch the greats today than we ever had in days of yore. Anyone who grew up in the 1960s is likely to have seen a damn sight more of Messi than they will ever have of Pele or Maradona. Or as Rob Smyth put it, "the arrogance of modernity dictates that the best we have ever seen becomes the best that ever there was."
I think you're looking at the wrong stats here. Bierhoff scored 27 that season, Baggio, Batistuta and Del Piero had 22, 21 and 21, respectively. Montella scored 20 goals, even.
I mentioned for Inter mate. The next top scorers for Inter in the league, not altogether.
I'd say that the increased exposure works against contemporary stars: we take them for granted, we see their bad games, their mistakes, their slumps.
With past players, we mainly remember the big moments, the defining games. This is why the original Ronaldo is a perfect storm for the sort of overrating that goes on in this thread: lots of football fans around the age 30 - the Caf's chief demographic if I'm not mistaken - saw him when they were impressionable teenagers, when he was talked up as the best player of the world and elevated him to some magical level. Compared to that nostalgic fantasy, Messi looks mundane for sure.
Oh. But that's completely irrelevant. I don't think anyone denied that he was Inter's best attacker by a country mile? He scored 40% of Inter's league goals that season. 2011/12 Messi, for example, scored 44% of Barcelona's league goals (and assisted another 13%).
Indeed, but there are few differences - Barcelona and Real that season were so ahead of the pack it's untrue. Barcelona and Real together scored 235 goals that season, which is mental. That's more than 3 goals per game on average.
The Seria A in the 90's defensively makes a world of difference. Suarez himself last year scored 59 goals for a side that IMO was worse than the 2011/12 one. As good as Suarez is, he's inferior to Ronaldo. Put peak Ronaldo in that Barca side and he'll tear those teams apart as well, as he did at the mere age of 20 - 47 goals in a team which was after the end of the dream team era. And his performances were mental at the time - 47 goals in 49 games.
I think it's far too much focus on how many goals they've scored. Messi and Ronaldhino are/were the architects of their teams where the Ronaldo's are/were there to score the goals. I'm not saying that makes any of them automatically better than the others but goal scoring alone doesn't make you the best, otherwise there would be a lot more votes for Cristiano.
I've said many times that I hold Messi as the GOAT so he's obviously my pick here, though peak Ronaldhino is close just for the entertainment factor alone.
I've said many times that I hold Messi as the GOAT so he's obviously my pick here, though peak Ronaldhino is close just for the entertainment factor alone.
I'd say that the increased exposure works in favour of attacking players because we see more of their brilliance on a regular basis. All you have to do is look at the Messi thread to see that in action - every few posts he is getting recognised as the greatest ever. But it works against defensive players because their games are generally based on not making mistakes. And we see those mistakes much more frequently than we did from defenders who we may only have seen in major tournaments in previous generations.
Absolutely this.
I've watched both of their careers, watching Messi and Cristiano has made me realise that footballers can be absolute machines but none of that matches that experience of watching Ronaldo in full pelt absolutely destroying anyone in front of him and pulling off one crazy move after another.
He changed the game, period. On the pitch, he did things players wouldn't dare trying outside the training grounds. Ronaldinho grew up watching and idolising him and we know what he went on to do and carry it forward. The ridiculous possession freak coaches nowadays have more or less taken that freedom out of the game and as great as the stats look on paper, it doesn't come close to witnessing something that insane.
At a time where world football was ruled by ruthless Italian defensive philosophies, brutal physicality and size over skill, it was the likes of Maradona and Ronaldo who showed the world that you can win, be effective while playing absolutely beautiful football.
2011-2012 Messi. Will I ever get to see a player like this again?
Depends. How old are you?