Best post-Maradona player (peak level)

[Fenomeno9]

 

[berbatrick]

The Messi/World Cup/GOAT debates are like Federer/H2H/GOAT, except that Messi has come so close to shutting that debate down.

 

[ghagua]

Dwight Gayle when he was with Crystal Palace. Ended Liverpools title hopes a few seasons ago when Palace came back from 3-0 down.

Next would be Messi

 

[ti vu]

I think it is more naive to think football went so downhill in terms of quality and balance, that being the main reason behind Messi and Ronaldo's records. Firstly, I just don't see it. If anything, defending is a bit better (less conservative, more systematic and athletic). More importantly, I would say that exactly those two are the main reason Real and Barca are able to score so many goals, because of their superior goalscoring qualities. Messi also as a creator, for example in helping Suarez do exactly the same. Which is also his primary role in Argentina, team he carried to three consecutive finals.

Better defensive organizing maybe but lesser individual defender is not deniable. And football gives more protection for attacker now than before. Not long before, tackle from behind was still allowed. 2 footed, stud up as long as not too dangerous/ not contacting attacker foot was also allowed. Nowadays, intention is enough to get punished. So attacker was given more advantage. In this era, once the attacker goes past, the defender no longer freely throw out tackle. There is less thing defender can do in that scenario now than before that rule came into play. Attacker can focus more what's in front of them than what is incoming behind them. Not so much before this rule first came out, around late 90s IIRC.

La Liga uses head to head to separate clubs finish same point, which influence teams mentality differently than PL. For example, a PL team when see the game as a loss, majority of them still play to defend the goal difference since that Goal Difference can play a huge factor in the table in the end of the season. La Liga, not so much. 100-0 is the same as 1-0 against indirect rival on the table. So 2-0 down vs Barcelona, Real Madrid, the losing team, their players still try to play positive to impress. For most part, only direct rivals on the table, make tighter games.

There may be more points that can factor in that I may miss, but those IMO are biggest difference and help the goals inflation for Messi and Ronaldo on top of the quality of their teams. Till mid 90s, Serie A only awarded 2 points for a win, so teams played more defensive and paid more attention for defense & defensive tactic. The young defenders from this era later became part of the Serie A/ world football top defenders in the following years, so many of them have solid defensive education than ball playing pretense who can't defend for shite the recent era produces.

 

[Stocar]

Could be. But I still think the main reason for perceived lack of 'defensive greats' is football generally becoming more quicker, and defending consequently more collective and systematic, with less space for development of domineering leader presences.

 

[giorno]

Could be. But I still think the main reason for perceived lack of 'defensive greats' is football generally becoming more quicker, and defending consequently more collective and systematic, with less space for development of domineering leader presences.

Think it's because of the way they are taught actually. The greater emphasis on attacking, entertaining football means there's an ever incresing emphasis on ability on the ball. Man-marking has almost disappeared entirely

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I was kind of with you until this bit. Either I've misunderstood you, or you couldn't be more wrong in my view. Messi lifts the entire Barcelona team in a way no player has affected a whole team before I think.

Messi lifts Barcelona because he's extremely good, not because he makes other players play better. His lack of dominance over the Argentine national team would be unthinkable wit Maradona. Maradona was like Messi and Iniesta in one with the leadership of Puyol.

 

[::sonny::]

Zidane
Ronaldo Luis Nazario

I don't like Messi and Ronaldo. They don't transmit to me any emotion

 

[Rozay]

This is close to a typical Cristiano Ronaldo performance. Including a goal from the spot which is the only thing that will remain in the records later on.

Yes, it's just one example, but I could post many more. Even just from this month. The Ronaldo at United was a better player, although didn't score as many goals, in my opinion. More rounded.

You must remember that, despite his extremely impressive stats, CR7 is not actually a striker. He's a winger, and a poor/average one at that and has been for years. Judging him exclusively on his goals is misleading in that respect.

 

[SteveW]

2012 Messi by miles

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

That's an old myth. Football wasn't that much harder back then, bar the Scottish league maybe. Especially not in southern Europe. Most Maradona youtube clips you watch, you can't see any tackle flying in what so ever - rather the opposite, players standing by and watch him running past them

Did you watch football regularly back in the early 1980's and before?

 

[krazyrobus]

Did you watch football regularly back in the early 1980's and before?

Clearly not, I mean Marco Van Basten's career created the no tackle from behind rule!

 

[Cal?]

Have to say, Ronaldo at his best ('96-98) was essentially a better version of Cristiano at his best(2008-2012)

That said, people here talking as if cristiano was always just a super-poacher who gave his teams nothing outside goals(mostly tap-ins), totally forgot how peak cristiano picking up the ball 80 yards from goal with a couple yards of space to pick up speed totally put the fear of god into every opponent's players, coaches and fans

Ronaldo at his best is a LESSER version of Cristiano Ronaldo.

 

[BlueCelery]

Some of Ronaldo's seasons at United have become massively overrated on here. His final two seasons he already made transitioned into a poacher.

His best season as an all-around player at United was probably 06/07. Apart from that year he's never been able to maintain the perfect balance between goalscorer, playmaker & dribbler that the great attackers have.

 

[Lawman]

Ronaldo at his best is a LESSER version of Cristiano Ronaldo.

No way I can only imagine you never saw the Brazilian Ronaldo in his prime! Both great players though. The one player I thought of being the dogs bollocks was Lothar Matthaus. What an absolute beast of a player he was.

 

[Lawman]

I think it is more naive to think football went so downhill in terms of quality and balance, that being the main reason behind Messi and Ronaldo's records. Firstly, I just don't see it. If anything, defending is a bit better (less conservative, more systematic and athletic). More importantly, I would say that exactly those two are the main reason Real and Barca are able to score so many goals, because of their superior goalscoring qualities. Messi also as a creator, for example in helping Suarez do exactly the same. Which is also his primary role in Argentina, team he carried to three consecutive finals.

I think bigger squads have played a part also as most bigger clubs carry roughly 20-25 first teamers (hoarding the best players) making the smaller clubs less competitive imo. It used to be that around 3 players from every team would have a chance of starting at your club but nowadays your lucky if any would start.

 

[OL29]

This is close to a typical Cristiano Ronaldo performance. Including a goal from the spot which is the only thing that will remain in the records later on.

Yes, it's just one example, but I could post many more. Even just from this month. The Ronaldo at United was a better player, although didn't score as many goals, in my opinion. More rounded.

You must remember that, despite his extremely impressive stats, CR7 is not actually a striker. He's a winger, and a poor/average one at that and has been for years. Judging him exclusively on his goals is misleading in that respect.

I asked this before and you didn't respond but why focus on the Ronaldo of the last few years and not the one from his earlier career? Not really a fair comparison when discussing the peak level of others?

 

[OL29]

Have to say, Ronaldo at his best ('96-98) was essentially a better version of Cristiano at his best(2008-2012)

That said, people here talking as if cristiano was always just a super-poacher who gave his teams nothing outside goals(mostly tap-ins), totally forgot how peak cristiano picking up the ball 80 yards from goal with a couple yards of space to pick up speed totally put the fear of god into every opponent's players, coaches and fans

Agreed

 

[Rozay]

I asked this before and you didn't respond but why focus on the Ronaldo of the last few years and not the one from his earlier career? Not really a fair comparison when discussing the peak level of others?

Because the Ronaldo who switched to a goalscoring machine at the expense of all his expressiveness is the one that has put him in this conversation as 'the greatest player of all time'.

I could refer to the Ronaldo who used to beat men and excite, but the only reason being cited for his case is that his record is amazing. My point is, although it is amazing, I have never, ever, heard Gerd Muller referred to as one of the best players ever. Can't be a player who beats men and excites AND scores 50 a season. He has sacrificed the former for the latter. Don't think we should add different periods of his career together to make one Ronaldo.

 

[Rozay]

Ronaldo at his best is a LESSER version of Cristiano Ronaldo.

Cristiano Ronaldo is nothing like a Ronaldo in his prime. Maybe Ruud Van Nistelrooy in his prime is a lesser version of Cristiano Ronaldo.

 

[predator]

I think it's obviously Messi. My last post shows where my opinion is anyway.

I think comparing the two Ronaldos is a more fascinating comparison. It's very difficult to to explain why a certain player is better than another. I'd like to see what Real Madrid fans think of the two. Some might see how crucial CR7 has been to the recent success. The goals, the new galactico period, the fact he can score any type of goal - this is often unappreciated with CR7 when pointing out individual brilliance from the GOAT's. He's scored goals from from all areas with various parts of his body.
The argument that he only scores tap ins is a bit of a joke tbh. He's developed into a magnificent goalscorer at almost 32 years old, which is odd really, you'd think the goals would dry up. Other aspects of his game have fallen, although he did possess explosiveness, beating a man, great intelligence of the game attributes in previous years.

Some Madrid fans may respect the raw talent and explosiveness of R9 and consider him superior. It's hard to discuss R9 in great detail because his later career was muddled with injuries which prevented him from a dominant era. It's clear in my mind that he is more exciting to watch and does possess more natural ability than CR7 but does that necessarily make him a 'better player'?

Is scoring a ridiculous amount of goals easier than magic footwork and sheer technique? Scoring goals is what ultimately wins you games tbf.

I'd love to ask well respected managers who they'd pick over the two. Would they pick R9 over CR7 in a single match or over the course of a season? - vice versa.

And also I see the opinion that defenders of the 90s, particulary in Serie A, were much better than today's. How are we assessing this? I'm not saying I disagree but I believe some modern day defenders are as good, if not better.

It all comes down to what ypu think makes a great player. I'd personally pay money to see R9 over CR7 but would you as a manger pick the same considering the other will get you more goals which will most likely result in more trophies.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Easily Messi.

 

[totaalvoetbal]

I previously said Messi because he is by far the most ruthless in all aspects of the game. He is one of the greatest goal scorers in history, one of the best final ball players in history and arguably the best dribbler when compared relative to any era. His efficency at all makes him very unique. I think some people find him boring because he doesn't do it with "flair" like Ronaldinho, he looks like a PES controlled player.


A player that won't be mentioned by a lot of people is Michael Laudrup. For me he is the biggest waste of talent relative to his God given ability. He had the talent that could have placed him in the conversation with Maradona, Pele, Cruijff and the very elite but his mentality was just not up to par. Platini said he was the best in the training ground and didn't replicate it when games came around. Johan said that he rarely gave 100%. Cruijff said he thought Laudrup lacked the hunger that some of the south Americans had, implying that he grew up too comfortable.

Ozil reminds me of him with the way in some games he just goes to sleep and never forces the issue, and only really looks like and great player when his team is on the front foot.

He was a great dribbler, a great final ball player and a good two footed finisher but he rarely combined all threw aspects together especially against top opposition. Talent wise he is the best European player since Cruijff, shame he rarely applied it to its fullest capabilities.

 

[BenjaminP]

On his day, Guti