Best post-Maradona player (peak level)

(Real) Ronaldo is the most talented player of all time. So him.

He was comfortably better than Messi was at the same age (23) before the infamous reinjury against Lazio.
 
In terms of pure excitement it's hard to choose between Ronaldo Lima and Ronaldinho.
 
Omar Little said:
In terms of pure excitement it's hard to choose between Ronaldo Lima and Ronaldinho.
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I don't get the excitement factor that people use to prop up Ronaldinho over Messi. If that's the case why not include Okocha who's one of the greatest entertainers ever?
 
BlueCelery said:
I don't get the excitement factor that people use to prop up Ronaldinho over Messi. If that's the case why not include Okocha who's one of the greatest entertainers ever?
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Barcelona with Ronaldinho at his peak tactic is giving him the ball and let him orchestrate their play.

Messi pre Pep was similar but did not reach peak level. Since Pep, Messi's tactically assigned to pick position and having Barcelona system is used to supply him the ball in ideal area where he can focus solely on the efficiency.
 
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Ronaldo. Didn't play in a dominant team in a lopsided era but still dominated at every level. Truly a phenomenon. Messi's inability to consistently turn it on for his national team even at his best counts against him in this argument.
 
Surprised to see some quoting 2012 Messi. He was scoring goals at an absurd rate, but his performances in the big games that season were not decisive.

To me, 2010-2011 Messi is the peak Messi. Literally unplayable and he was physically at his peak too.

So 2010-2011 Messi is my pick.
 
BlueCelery said:
I don't get the excitement factor that people use to prop up Ronaldinho over Messi. If that's the case why not include Okocha who's one of the greatest entertainers ever?
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That's simple because Ronaldinho was exciting AND was the best player in the world at his peak. We're not talking about a show pony here, were talking about possibly the most supremely talented player who turned the world stage into his personal playground.
 
BlueCelery said:
(Real) Ronaldo is the most talented player of all time. So him.

He was comfortably better than Messi was at the same age (23) before the infamous reinjury against Lazio.
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Messi was 22 that season. He scored 47 goals in 53 appearances, on par with R9's best goalscoring seasons; and he played as a #10 rather than a striker.
 
Stack said:
If that is true why aren't football scores from 30 years ago much larger than today?
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Because there hasn't been a truly great defender in about 10 years or so. It's the one thing the modern game is lacking. Yes, teams defend better as a unit, these days, are fitter and more organised defensively and there are some very good defenders but no true greats I can think of.
 
Hound Dog said:
It is generally accepted that Messi and Ronaldo are the two best players of the last 25 years and there does not seem to be a genuine way to disagree with that, with them both winning a lot of trophies and individual honors, setting records, etc.

However, it is generally accepted that Brazilian Ronaldo and Ronaldinho were both amazing players but do not pop up in the GOAT discussions due to their lack of longevity.

However, my question for Redcafe would be, who would you take out of peak Ronaldo vs peak Ronaldinho vs peak Messi vs peak Ronaldo - basically, who do you think was the best during his peak.

I'd also be interested to see where you think Michael Owen, another player who was not at his best for long, ranks in terms of best-ever English players, at his peak.
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What is peak? A single season? A game? A stretch of games?

Assuming it is a single season, and excluding Messi because duh...

Ronaldo
Xavi
Fat Ronaldo
Ronaldinho

I'm missing a lot of players but I'm just going off the names mentioned in this thread.
 
I still find it mad that (camp) Ronaldo has scored more goals for Madrid than he's played games. It's just incredible. And we're not talking a small amount of goals/games, it's more than most players will ever score in a lifetime. Talk about a feat that will never be repeated.
 
IFC 1905 said:
Ballon d'ors are not objetive at all. Ronaldo Nazario is miles ahead CR in terms of peak.
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And that's your opinion only. And it's clear your own opinion is way less objective than Ballon D'or for a start.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Ronaldo. Didn't play in a dominant team in a lopsided era but still dominated at every level. Truly a phenomenon. Messi's inability to consistently turn it on for his national team even at his best counts against him in this argument.
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I see. So Messi gets downgraded because he played in a great, dominant team, while R9 gets full credit for playing in a natioanal team full of all tine greats like Carlos, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo. It's one thing to have Zabaleta and Rojo as your fullbacks and a totally different thing to have Cafu and Roberto Carlos playing there. The difference is enormous.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Ronaldo. Didn't play in a dominant team in a lopsided era but still dominated at every level. Truly a phenomenon. Messi's inability to consistently turn it on for his national team even at his best counts against him in this argument.
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It's one thing if you criticise him for his lack of international honours/leading his country to glory, but the bolded bit is very far from the truth IMO.
 
serghei said:
I see. So Messi gets downgraded because he played in a great, dominant team, while R9 gets full credit for playing in a natioanal team full of all tine greats like Carlos, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo. It's one thing to have Zabaleta and Rojo as your fullbacks and a totally different thing to have Cafu and Roberto Carlos playing there. The difference is enormous.
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Ronaldo gets credit cause regardless of what side, where he played, he dominated. Where as messi didnt quite do the same.
 
Messi by a mile. Forget the dozens and hundreds of goals, his passing/playmaking/dribbling skills alone will do it for me.
 
ti vu said:
Barcelona with Ronaldinho at his peak tactic is giving him the ball and let him orchestrate their play.

Messi pre Pep was similar but did not reach peak level. Since Pep, Messi's tactically assigned to pick position and having Barcelona system is used to supply him the ball in ideal area where he can focus solely on the efficiency.
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Messi sets up more chances for teammates, due to sheer playmaking ingenuity, than they set up for him. I mean, you would know that if you watched the games.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Ronaldo gets credit cause regardless of what side, where he played, he dominated. Where as messi didnt quite do the same.
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I disagree completely. Messi dominates wherever he plays. The difference is at Barcelona, his team gives him the opportunity to show more of his ability, than what happens with Argentina. That is strictly because Argentina's generation is ordinary and cannot provide a platform for Messi to be able to play at his best consistently. Messi is the only certified gold talent in that team, whereas Brazil's generation that Ronaldo was part in was great, with several all time greats.

Ronaldo never dominated at club level like Messi has. Never won the Champions League either, while Messi won it 4 times and at his best he and Barcelona destroyed United on Wembley. That's the highest stage available in club football, and while Serie A was a great league, it is still not the same level.
 
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Bepi said:
Luis Ronaldo at Inter before his first lethal injury was God in the League of Gods
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Invictus said:
1. Fenómeno 1996-98 - not much between him and Messi, but R9 was like the 'HOW DO YOU TURN THIS ON' Blue Shelby Cobra from AOE that almost no one could stop - faced better defenses in relative terms through his peak and displayed more versatility in terms of competitions vs Messi (transfers to Barcelona from the Eredivisie where he helped them finish 2nd in La Liga and won them the Cup Winners' Cup + Supercopa de España + Copa del Rey, dominates the 1997 Copa América tournament, transfers to the defensive Serie A - wins the UEFA Cup with Inter and finishes 2nd in Serie A, leads Brazil to the final of the World Cup). Plus, he was often thrown willy-nilly into teams which didn't have a very detailed and coherent tactical plan to build things around them, but still managed to demolish the opposition on a regular basis.









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InfiniteBoredom said:
Fat Ronaldo.

It was something else to dominate Serie A during that era. A 37 year old Nesta silenced Messi.
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As above - Ronaldo, especially first season in Italy.
Messi will never and has never faced that level of quality, and although that's just a fault of his era and not him, it's never used in a weighted metric in relation to a league with such ridiculous quality as Serie A had at the time Ronaldo went there and truly earned his Fenomeno moniker.
Third player would be Ronaldinho.
 
Ronaldo (9) for me.

One thing people seem to have disregarded in this argument is that Messi has always been the fulcrum at his best; everything goes through him so he's at his most effective.

Ronaldo didn't even need to be the star or main man in the buildup. He played fine alongside Ronaldinho and Rivaldo hogging the ball. And for Inter. No matter the team, no matter the circumstances, if he was fit he destroyed you. A 'cold winters night at stoke' wouldn't even have been a question mark for Ronaldo.

Messi is a clear second. Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, and C Ronaldo deserve mentions.
 
Ish said:
It's one thing if you criticise him for his lack of international honours/leading his country to glory, but the bolded bit is very far from the truth IMO.
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Its not just that they didn't win, its that he himself didn't perform in a lot of the instances. Not to the sort of levels you expect from an all time greet anyways.
 
serghei said:
I see. So Messi gets downgraded because he played in a great, dominant team, while R9 gets full credit for playing in a natioanal team full of all tine greats like Carlos, Cafu, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo. It's one thing to have Zabaleta and Rojo as your fullbacks and a totally different thing to have Cafu and Roberto Carlos playing there. The difference is enormous.
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It's not like those players always did well. Brazil had a mare of WC qualification and Copa America during this period when Ronaldo was out injured. Arguably, Ronaldo as his teammates in Brazil said, gave the team the belief which united them and allowed them to perform at a higher level.

Before you criticize those teammates of Messi in Argentine team, let me repeat this (many had said before): it's the Argentine defense unit that helped getting them to those finals in their last tournaments. While with that Brazil team you mentioned it's the goals and as I said, they lack belief and disjointed at times, and only click once they had Ronaldo back into the group.

Stocar said:
Messi sets up more chances for teammates, due to sheer playmaking ingenuity, than they set up for him. I mean, you would know that if you watched the games.
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I am not talking about chance but how one decided the flow of the game. With Ronaldinho, he overstepped Deco, Xavi and be the indisputable Barcelona main playmaker. In a sense that every attack had to go through him at some point to the goal.

Messi since Pep shared the play making role (he used to have similar role pre Pep to Ronaldinho as Ronaldinho decline), and being the ultimate attacker of those playmaker he had more say in the final ball. In a sense, Messi is their ultimate route, but they can play through different route and not use him to get to opponent goal.

The contrast is at Argentina team where he needs to play deep to get involved more, or adapted to play with few touches, since Argentina team couldn't supply him enough in better area. They rely on him more to be the sole playmaker of the team in the mold of Maradona, which arguably Messi failed, despite individually Messi hardly play badly. Just his influence is not strong enough.

To put it simple: Barcelona system allow Messi having more touches in final third or the upper zone of middle third of the pitch. Argentina system would require him to do more in middle third, even deeper in their own half. It doesn't say about quality of Messi, but how it does affect his efficiency, play.

Someone like pre injured Brazillian Ronaldo is more athletic and all action attacker who popped up everywhere if needed or don't mind playing isolated.
 
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Ronaldinho. From memory, he seemed to just own it in big games - like he didn't have any huge pressure on his shoulders to perform. Just owned it as it was all piece of cake. But that's just from memory though.
 
I want to say fat Ronaldo but it has to be Messi.

Ronaldinho some way back in third. More easily and more frequently nullified than the first two. When he turned it on, it was absolutely spectacular though.

The three of them sit together in a cigar lounge drinking cognac as they laugh at the thought of placcy Ronaldo having been part of the conversation.

Edit: assumed a cup tie. Where I'd have Rivaldo over placcy as well. If it's a season, placcy runs fatty close for 2nd place while Messi curbstombs.
 
I can't agree with the fat Ronaldo comments, in his one good season at Inter before he went down, he wasn't even the leagues top goalscorer, Oliver Bierhoff beat his tally.

There were also plenty of strikers around that time who put up tremendous numbers in serie A, Batistuta springs to mind.
People will scoff at this but Alan Shearer in his Blackburn days put up a ridicoulous amount of goals similar to Ronaldo's and was almost a 1 man team internationally for England at Euro 96 and for several months after but he'd never get a mention in a million years.

(Fat) Ronaldo wasn't in the same league as Messi but thats just like, my opinion, man.
 
ti vu said:
It's not like those players always did well. Brazil had a mare of WC qualification and Copa America during this period when Ronaldo was out injured. Arguably, Ronaldo as his teammates in Brazil said, gave the team the belief which united them and allowed them to perform at a higher level.

Before you criticize those teammates of Messi in Argentine team, let me repeat this (many had said before): it's the Argentine defense unit that helped getting them to those finals in their last tournaments. While with that Brazil team you mentioned it's the goals and as I said, they lack belief and disjointed at times, and only click once they had Ronaldo back into the group.
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Those players didn't always do well, true. But no one does well all the time. Imo there's no comparison between that Brazil generation, and the current Argentinian one, which can't even win a game these days if Messi doesn't play or has an off game.

The Argentine defence needs a closer look at that World Cup. It was a good defence by way of sacrificing a lot of options in attack. Basically, they depended on Messi to create something, and when he didn't, they were barely doing anything up front. That is being defensive as a team imo, rather than having a great defence. You always defend better if you settle for little in attack, because spaces for the opponent are less generous.
 
serghei said:
I disagree completely. Messi dominates wherever he plays. The difference is at Barcelona, his team gives him the opportunity to show more of his ability, than what happens with Argentina. That is strictly because Argentina's generation is ordinary and cannot provide a platform for Messi to be able to play at his best consistently. Messi is the only certified gold talent in that team, whereas Brazil's generation that Ronaldo was part in was great, with several all time greats.

Ronaldo never dominated at club level like Messi has. Never won the Champions League either, while Messi won it 4 times and at his best he and Barcelona destroyed United on Wembley. That's the highest stage available in club football, and while Serie A was a great league, it is still not the same level.
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He really doesn't, imo at least. He's never had an international tournament thats left me feeling like wow, im watching someone special here. Ronaldo dominated every level in those days. It didn't matter what team you saw him play in, you knew he was by far the best player on the pitch. Whether they won or lost the matches.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Ronaldo. Didn't play in a dominant team in a lopsided era but still dominated at every level. Truly a phenomenon. Messi's inability to consistently turn it on for his national team even at his best counts against him in this argument.
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There is a double standard within this post itself. Ronaldo played for probably the best national team of his generation (with teammates like Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho). Messi most certainly does not. Germany and Spain most certainly have better squads overall, France probably too; yet Messi gets criticizes for not winning with his national team.

But Ronaldo never won the CL and only won 1 league title in 15 years in Europe. He does not get criticized for not delivering more silverware at club level. You could argue that Ronaldo never played for the best club team (apart from the fact that he did in 2002/03), but Messi never played for the best international team either.
 
BennyBlanco said:
I can't agree with the fat Ronaldo comments, in his one good season at Inter before he went down, he wasn't even the leagues top goalscorer, Oliver Bierhoff beat his tally.

There were also plenty of strikers around that time who put up tremendous numbers in serie A, Batistuta springs to mind.
People will scoff at this but Alan Shearer in his Blackburn days put up a ridicoulous amount of goals similar to Ronaldo's and was almost a 1 man team internationally for England at Euro 96 and for several months after but he'd never get a mention in a million years.

(Fat) Ronaldo wasn't in the same league as Messi but thats just like, my opinion, man.
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He was playing on a whole different level to those players. Those guys were pure strikers and waited for chances. Sometimes had great strikes from outside the box. Ronaldo was virtually taking teams on, on his own. His all pitch play was an outrage. It at times felt like there was more of him on the pitch in a match.
 
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