Best post-Maradona player (peak level)

serghei said:
Those players didn't always do well, true. But no one does well all the time. Imo there's no comparison between that Brazil generation, and the current Argentinian one, which can't even win a game these days if Messi doesn't play or has an off game.

The Argentine defence needs a closer look at that World Cup. It was a good defence by way of sacrificing a lot of options in attack. Basically, they depended on Messi to create something, and when he didn't, they were barely doing anything up front. That is being defensive as a team imo, rather than having a great defence. You always defend better if you settle for little in attack, because spaces for the opponent are less generous.
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I don't disagree with you there. Just saying during that period where Ronaldo was out injured, that Brazil team is even more headless chicken as they couldn't even play like a team at times. This Argentina team may not be a great team but they're solid enough with the right tactic. Yes they rely on Messi heavily. That's where the difference lie between Maradona and Messi. Messi IMO in his ideal environment is better/ more effective/ effiecient player than Maradona in his ideal environment. However, with Maradona, in a less ideal environment he lifted the team more and he himself has more influence in the game. That's what I see and how I feel talking to the old Argentine fans, Serie A old followers.

I don't say Messi played badly for Argentina individually, but as a key player is lesser influential player than the like of Maradona and IMO the Brazilian Ronaldo.
 
I know people are always keen to come up with different answers, because it gets boring just saying Messi every time. But honestly, Messi is the best ever and his peak eclipses everyone else. There's no way around that, he just is.

His peak of 73 goals and 23 assists in one season is going to take some beating...
 
RooneyLegend said:
He was playing on a whole different level to those players. Those guys were pure strikers and waited for chances. Sometimes had great strikes from outside the box. Ronaldo was virtually taking teams on, on his own. His all pitch play was an outrage. It at times felt like there was more of him on the pitch in a match.
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He was a pure no.9, his game was about scoring goals, thats why I mention his goalscoring numbers, He could hit long distance and anytime he was on the ball he was terrifying I agree, but Messi for example scores 50+ goals a season as a goalscorer but he's also a playmaker, who gets 20-30 assists per year too, in his prime, Messi would be involved in almost 100 goals for his team a season. They're not compareable in my opinion, particuarly because Ronaldo was robbed of the majority of his career so young. But again, my opinion.
 
Hound Dog said:
However, it is generally accepted that Brazilian Ronaldo and Ronaldinho were both amazing players but do not pop up in the GOAT discussions due to their lack of longevity.
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It isn't about longevity, it's simply at their peak they weren't as good as Messi at his.
 
Infordin said:
There is a double standard within this post itself. Ronaldo played for probably the best national team of his generation (with teammates like Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho). Messi most certainly does not. Germany and Spain most certainly have better squads overall, France probably too; yet Messi gets criticizes for not winning with his national team.

But Ronaldo never won the CL and only won 1 league title in 15 years in Europe. He does not get criticized for not delivering more silverware at club level. You could argue that Ronaldo never played for the best club team (apart from the fact that he did in 2002/03), but Messi never played for the best international team either.
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I don't criticize Messi for not winning the world cup or any international tournament, i criticize him for not performing to a all time great level in those tournaments. Ronaldo didn't win world cup 98 but won world cup 02. He was by far a better player in the former than the latter despite scoring double the goals in the latter. Teams win tournaments and all that, a players individual performance is just that, his individual performance. One man doesn't make a team hence its ridiculous to blame a whole teams' failures on an individual. btw we're talking strictly talking pre injury Ronaldo here. Post injury Ronaldo was barely better than Henry let alone compare him to Messi.
 
BennyBlanco said:
He was a pure no.9, his game was about scoring goals, thats why I mention his goalscoring numbers, He could hit long distance and anytime he was on the ball he was terrifying I agree, but Messi for example scores 50+ goals a season as a goalscorer but he's also a playmaker, who gets 20-30 assists per year too, in his prime, Messi would be involved in almost 100 goals for his team a season. They're not compareable in my opinion, particuarly because Ronaldo was robbed of the majority of his career so young. But again, my opinion.
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This is wrong if you're talking about the Brazilian Ronaldo before that injury. I, and I believe many people saw him as playing football just for the fun! I meant he tried to dribble the whole team into the net. Yes he overplayed and at times could shoot, pass earlier. His game at times was more about how sick he could make the whole move than just simply goal scoring. The goal scoring record he set at Barcelona back in the day was that great achievement in that sense it's only secondary objective in his game. Like the other poster said, pre injured Ronaldo was everywhere. Could be winger, attacking midfielder, second forward, lone forward, no 8...

Only after his long laid off that he changed his game to suit his physical condition where you can say he's pure no.9 and his game is about goal scoring first then show boating.

Thing is since his injury, he's not the same player so he never had a true peak. Messi was similar pre Pep, but Messi IMO didn't reach the same level as Brazillian pre-injury playing similar role. Messi reached an untouchable level in that Barcelona system. I meant Maradona, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho... can't do the same playing same system. However the system is hard to replicate, even for Barcelona now. When there is more uncertainty at play, then I see the above edge out on Messi.
 
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RooneyLegend said:
He was playing on a whole different level to those players. Those guys were pure strikers and waited for chances. Sometimes had great strikes from outside the box. Ronaldo was virtually taking teams on, on his own. His all pitch play was an outrage. It at times felt like there was more of him on the pitch in a match.
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And what do you think Messi does then? He's the best finisher and creator/playmaker of the past decades, he does even more in a match than Ronaldo did. When he played as a striker for a year, he immediately smashed up the entire record, now he just plays as the most complete midfielder/attacker there is, excelling in almosy every aspect what you'd want from a forward/attacking midfielder. Neymar and Suarez are great players, but to see the gulf between them and Messi just shows how good he really is.
 
BennyBlanco said:
He was a pure no.9, his game was about scoring goals, thats why I mention his goalscoring numbers, He could hit long distance and anytime he was on the ball he was terrifying I agree, but Messi for example scores 50+ goals a season as a goalscorer but he's also a playmaker, who gets 20-30 assists per year too, in his prime, Messi would be involved in almost 100 goals for his team a season. They're not compareable in my opinion, particuarly because Ronaldo was robbed of the majority of his career so young. But again, my opinion.
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He wasn't a pure no9, not before the injury anyways. He was all over the place. Heck, when he picked balls on the half way line, there would be an expectation that something would happen. He imo played his best football alongside Romario who was a pure no9.

Comparing stats of those days and of players in super teams of today doesn't make sense. Take Neymar out of this barca side, put Pre injury ronaldo there and he'd score hat-fulls.
 
ti vu said:
This is wrong if you're talking about the Brazilian Ronaldo before that injury. I, and I believe many people saw him as playing football just for the fun! I meant he tried to dribble the whole team into the net. Yes he overplayed and at times can shoot earlier. His game at times is more about how sick he could make the whole move than just simply goal scoring. The goal scoring record he set at Barcelona back in the day was that great achievement in that sense it's only secondary objective in his game.

Only after his long laid off that he changed his game to suit his physical condition where you can say he's pure no.9 and his game is about goal scoring first then show boating.
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I didn't mean to sound as if he was only a poacher, he had other aspects to his game, he was a legitimately terrifying player at the time, but he was always more a pure forward than Messi will ever be, was my point. The total package Messi brings in addition to the goals marks him as the far superior talent. You mention dribbling past players or perhaps his speed, but Messi again... has all those talents in his locker, the one noteable positive Ronaldo had that Messi lacks is huge upper body strength.

I don't judge Ronaldo post injury as he was a right lazy fat bastard for a lot of the time, I'm strictly speaking prior his first knee injury, apologies if what I wrote was unclear.
 
BennyBlanco said:
I didn't mean to sound as if he was only a poacher, he had other aspects to his game, he was a legitimately terrifying player at the time, but he was always more a pure forward than Messi will ever be, was my point. The total package Messi brings in addition to the goals marks him as the far superior talent. You mention dribbling past players or perhaps his speed, but Messi again... has all those talents in his locker, the one noteable positive Ronaldo had that Messi lacks is huge upper body strength.

I don't judge Ronaldo post injury as he was a right lazy fat bastard for a lot of the time, I'm strictly speaking prior his first knee injury, sorry.
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That's fair enough.

See my edit in my last post where I added few point. Yes I believe Messi reached an entire different level- here I say about being the most efficient player all around. However, this requires certain strict conditions that hard to replicate. On a more level ground, IMO pre injured Ronaldo with his false peak edges Messi. That's my opinion of course and I respect yours. Each to their owns. Cheers.
 
Sammyjunn said:
And what do you think Messi does then? He's the best finisher and creator/playmaker of the past decades, he does even more in a match than Ronaldo did. When he played as a striker for a year, he immediately smashed up the entire record, now he just plays as the most complete midfielder/attacker there is, excelling in almosy every aspect what you'd want from a forward/attacking midfielder. Neymar and Suarez are great players, but to see the gulf between them and Messi just shows how good he really is.
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My point is Ronaldo looked on a different level to all players regardless of where he played where as Messi is only able to achieve that when he's at barca. Ronaldo also played with great players and the gulf was evident even then. That's just what generational footballers do, they tend to look quite alot better than even truly great players
 
My memory is a bit hazy now but how did Fowler compare to other English strikers? Remember the twunt scoring bucketloads of goals but for the life of me cannot remember an impressive all-round game.
 
RooneyLegend said:
I don't criticize Messi for not winning the world cup or any international tournament, i criticize him for not performing to a all time great level in those tournaments. Ronaldo didn't win world cup 98 but won world cup 02. He was by far a better player in the former than the latter despite scoring double the goals in the latter.
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Was there that much difference between Messi's 2014 and R9's 1998?
 
Messi, no contest, but the gap between him and Ronaldinho/R9 is close though, while the gap between him and CR is not as close as people think
 
RooneyLegend said:
My point is Ronaldo looked on a different level to all players regardless of where he played where as Messi is only able to achieve that when he's at barca. Ronaldo also played with great players and the gulf was evident even then. That's just what generational footballers do, they tend to look quite alot better than even truly great players
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It seems that you think that because he hasnt won anything with Argentina he is just being average there, he isnt as good as Barca but still immense for them. Their lack of titles isnt on Messi who has to play purely as a playmaker for them, but more on Higuain, Aguero, di Maria who have bottled so often. 3 finals in a row speak of some accomplishment and he's been their best every single time. Ronaldo played with the best international team ever but failed to replicate that at club level due to certain factors which arent solely his doing, same goes for Messi but then the other way round.
 
SoCross said:
My memory is a bit hazy now but how did Fowler compare to other English strikers? Remember the twunt scoring bucketloads of goals but for the life of me cannot remember an impressive all-round game.
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Thats cause it wasn't all that impressive. When he first hit the scene he used to bang em in for fun. He was inferior to a lot of them just cause the others had attributes he didn't have. Shearer had the strength and ability to score from virtually any distance he wanted too. Owen had outrageous pace, especially in terms of acceleration. Ian wright was also faster than him but he also had a natural football intelligence that meant he would make the right choice. Scoring did come easy for him though and had a very natural way of creating space for his shot.
 
Sammyjunn said:
It seems that you think that because he hasnt won anything with Argentina he is just being average there, he isnt as good as Barca but still immense for them. Their lack of titles isnt on Messi who has to play purely as a playmaker for them, but more on Higuain, Aguero, di Maria who have bottled so often. 3 finals in a row speak of some accomplishment and he's been their best every single time. Ronaldo played with the best international team ever but failed to replicate that at club level due to certain factors which arent solely his doing, same goes for Messi but then the other way round.
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I'll refer you to post #85
 
I love the title. Dear children, please find a lesson about the History of Football:

Part 1. Primitive Football
Part 2. Maradona
Part 3. Football decadence

Celestiale said:
Don't act ridiculous, you see the same kind of challenges today. First one not too much, but happens here and there, sadly.
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Refereeing has changed a lot!
 
Iniesta at his very peak is almost as good as Messi imo, but for the killer touch in front of goal that Messi has.

I don't think many people who saw Iniesta in "God mode" would disagree

Kaka 2007 runs it close too. He went past players like they weren't there and was clinical in front of goal too. But he was probably only at that level for one season.
 
Put peak Messi into any top6 PL team and he'd vastly improve them, score a bucket load, and probably win them the league at a canter.

Put peak R9 into any top6 PL team and he'd transform them to the point a 'wet and windy wednesday night at stoke' would become 'Ronaldo's finishing training.' Hell he'd probably get 30 for Sunderland unless moyes trained him to play 'more like duncan ferguson'

I think people underestimate just how good the guy was as he's not played for a while.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Thats cause it wasn't all that impressive. When he first hit the scene he used to bang em in for fun. He was inferior to a lot of them just cause the others had attributes he didn't have. Shearer had the strength and ability to score from virtually any distance he wanted too. Owen had outrageous pace, especially in terms of acceleration. Ian wright was also faster than him but he also had a natural football intelligence that meant he would make the right choice. Scoring did come easy for him though and had a very natural way of creating space for his shot.
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Cheers man, yeah, he did have a nose for a goal or two alright.
 
Has to be Messi. Dude is tearing up teams since 2008 ffs. Insane vision, passing, dribbling and finishing all in 1.
 
Not a bad outsider for 5th place behind the four mentioned by OP



Obviously not on par with Messi, but he's in my top 8/10.
 
owlo said:
Put peak Messi into any top6 PL team and he'd vastly improve them, score a bucket load, and probably win them the league at a canter.

Put peak R9 into any top6 PL team and he'd transform them to the point a 'wet and windy wednesday night at stoke' would become 'Ronaldo's finishing training.' Hell he'd probably get 30 for Sunderland unless moyes trained him to play 'more like duncan ferguson'

I think people underestimate just how good the guy was as he's not played for a while.
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Steady now, he's no Jermain Defoe.
 
Raees said:
Steady now, he's no Jermain Defoe.
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:lol:

Talking about Jermain Defoe, Mark Ogden was on national TV saying United are relying too much on a 35 year old Ibra and a minute later he says if he were Mourinho he'd give a blank cheque to Sunderland for Defoe ((who is also 34)) because we lack fox in the box :wenger:

On topic, it has to be Messi. Just watch this:

 
Who was the best pre-Messi Argie Next-Maradonna? Some pretty good ones to choose from:

Aimar
Riquelme
Ortega

Probably Aimar but Riquelme was an exquisite playmaker
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Who was the best pre-Messi Argie Next-Maradonna? Some pretty good ones to choose from:

Aimar
Riquelme
Ortega

Probably Aimar but Riquelme was an exquisite playmaker
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I'd have Veron as comfortably better than all 3 of those.

Both Ronaldos probably have it over Ronaldinho too, and Romario at his peak level as well.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Who was the best pre-Messi Argie Next-Maradonna? Some pretty good ones to choose from:

Aimar
Riquelme
Ortega

Probably Aimar but Riquelme was an exquisite playmaker
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You left out some good choices

Batistuta
Veron
Redondo
 
The ballon d'or (numbers thereof including 2nds & 3rds) evidence is quite interesting.

messi, cristiano, van basten, zidane something like that just about
 
Once upon a time I would have definitely said R9, but I do think Messi's 2012 is on par if I'm being honest.

Both players are unlucky that one wasn't in a world cup period and the other wasn't challenging in the european cup during their peaks. Makes the comparison that bit harder.

One thing you do have to take into account was that when teams played against Messi, they had to basically rejig their entire tactical philosophy just to try and counter his threat. That in effect did nullify him a lot during these big games, in terms of performance level.. like for example take his performances against Chelsea in 05/06 and against United 07/08. He was exciting, specactular.. almost destroyed two peak english sides single-handedly and he was still only a kid in footballing terms.

By his peak, he was that scary.. teams had to tactically rewrite the rule book and forget their own style of play just to keep him quiet.

Now where Messi struggles here, is that even if you did try to completely nullify a Ronaldo, due to his more unpredictable nature of play and freakish athleticism, at his pomp.. it would still be very difficult to keep him out of the game and he still would have a chance of putting in a 10/10 display, with goals and edge of your seat level performance. Secondly it could be said that Ronaldo had to face these tactically suffocating teams on a more regular basis by playing in a super sophisticated very strong Italian league and starred at WC 98 which is for my money one of the greatest world cups of modern times in terms of the quality of players on show in terms of defence and attack.

So it is tough to call. Both of them would definitely be my top two if we are looking at forwards. Forgot Van Basten, surely has to be up there in 3rd alongside Goofy.

Defensively, I would pick Baresi whose peak.. no other defender has got close to. Midfield, I'd pick Xavi whose peak was phenomenal. Winger I'd pick Ronaldinho and Cristiano Ronaldo. Attacking mid, I'd go with Kaka/Zidane/Iniesta/Nedved.
 
Infordin said:
There is a double standard within this post itself. Ronaldo played for probably the best national team of his generation (with teammates like Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho). Messi most certainly does not. Germany and Spain most certainly have better squads overall, France probably too; yet Messi gets criticizes for not winning with his national team.

But Ronaldo never won the CL and only won 1 league title in 15 years in Europe. He does not get criticized for not delivering more silverware at club level. You could argue that Ronaldo never played for the best club team (apart from the fact that he did in 2002/03), but Messi never played for the best international team either.
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Just to put it in perspective here's the team Ronaldo's Inter faced Juve in 98:

1 Gianluca Pagliuca
7 Salvatore Fresi
16 Taribo West
33 Francesco Colonnese
4 Javier Zanetti
17 Francesco Moriero
-> 9 Iván Zamorano Subbed in
8 Aron Winter
-> 13 Zé Elias Moedim Subbed in
14 Diego Pablo Simeone
15 Benoît Cauet
6 Youri Djorkaeff
10 Ronaldo de Lima


Zanetti, SImeone, Djorkaeff aside, that's distinctly average team. That team was unbeaten in the first 12 games and 1 point behind Juve (finished second 5 points behind). Managed by Luigi Simoni.

Now Lippi's Juve at the time boasted with a team including Deschamps, Conte, Davids, Del Piero, Zidane, Inzaghi, Peruzzi, Montero, etc.

Djorkaeff and Zanetti also missed 5-6 games in the 34 game season. At the time Ronaldo was literally one man attack that carried that team.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Just to put it in perspective here's the team Ronaldo's Inter faced Juve in 98:

1 Gianluca Pagliuca
7 Salvatore Fresi
16 Taribo West
33 Francesco Colonnese
4 Javier Zanetti
17 Francesco Moriero
-> 9 Iván Zamorano Subbed in
8 Aron Winter
-> 13 Zé Elias Moedim Subbed in
14 Diego Pablo Simeone
15 Benoît Cauet
6 Youri Djorkaeff
10 Ronaldo de Lima


Zanetti, SImeone, Djorkaeff aside, that's distinctly average team. That team was unbeaten in the first 12 games and 1 point behind Juve (finished second 5 points behind). Managed by Luigi Simoni.

Now Lippi's Juve at the time boasted with a team including Deschamps, Conte, Davids, Del Piero, Zidane, Inzaghi, Peruzzi, Montero, etc.

Djorkaeff and Zanetti also missed 5-6 games in the 34 game season. At the time Ronaldo was literally one man attack that carried that team.
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This was the team Messi played with in the 2014 World Cup final:

Romero
Rojo
Demichelis
Garay
Zabaleta
Mascherano
Biglia
Perez
Lavezzi
Higuain

Aside from Mascherano, Lavezzi and Higuain - this too is a distinctly average team. And Higuain, as we know it, is a complete bottler on the international stage. While Lavezzi was subbed off for an unfit Aguero at half time. Di Maria was injured. Messi was carrying Argentina's attack by himself.

He was up against a Germany side that had Neuer, Lahm, Boateng, Hummels, Khedira, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Muller, Ozil and Klose.
 
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