@The Red Thinker difference between being a bad tactician and employing bad tactics. Moyes has seriously underperformed in this regard. I'm curious what he likes about German football because compared to the the other European leagues, it's the most similar to the EPL imo. Perhaps he wants to introduce counterpressing which would be nice.
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. I just don't get your point. Still don't. You quoted me in relation to a comparison between Barca 08 and '13 and you're trying to prove that they were worse in '13 than they were in '11, which no one even argues against? The idea that Real 'could have' bettered the scoreline is still weird, because Bayern 'could have' scored more as well. The fact that they didn't still remains.I think counter pressing is 100% what he wanted to do. I've seen it tried to be employed many many times this season.
Remember the first 15 minutes against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge? We absolutely dominated them. Had 73% possessions and the counter-pressing was working splendidly well. The players were in a mood to believe their manager. The tactics were spot on. I have never seen a time dominate Chelsea to that extent at their own ground (even it is for 15 mins), until Et'oo destroyed our confidence with that lucky deflection off Carrick.
We were definitely counter-pressing and it was impressive to watch in my eyes.
.....i'm not really sure it was counter-pressing. if it was then it wasn very good imo. we're some way off from counterpressing but yes we have been pressing this season
Last seasons Bayern team was better than any barca team. They simply had more strings to their bow. They didn't need the opposition to do anything in order to win. They simply pitched, and gave out a spanking. You park the bus, they'll knock it wide and cross balls into the box with muller and gomes in there. You play an open game they'll play through you. You try to keep possession, they'll congest the grey area and hit you on the counter. Total football in its true definition. Being able to adjust team tactics in so many ways in the same team has probably never been done, ever.
Barca 09-11 was certainly a great side but as some say some united fans are over ratting them because of the couple of spankings they gave us. In 09 they were extremely fortunate vs chelsea in the semi's. In 10 they got mauled by mou's inter. Couldn't break them down even down to 10 men! In 2011, which is seen by many as their 'peak' year(which I think is incorrect, 09 it was for me) they were fortunate vs real madrid and arsenal. Let's not forget what we saw in order to over hype them. We were the one team that sadly didn't stand a chance vs them but that wasn't the case vs the other top teams.
Did teams have to alter their tactics in order to beat them? Yes, but they did it cause it clearly worked. It threw them off their game and even to this day they haven't really found a solution against teams that do that.
I do think this seasons bayern isn't as good as last seasons simply because of the change in coach. They won't be as good when it comes to adjusting tactics. Can you see pep telling his team to lose the possession battle in order to hurt a team on the counter? Neither can I. They should've given jupp a couple more seasons and they'd have IMO entered the ajax(cruyff), madrd(di stefano), and munich(der kaiser) generations.
Barca 09-11 was certainly a great side but as some say some united fans are over ratting them because of the couple of spankings they gave us. In 09 they were extremely fortunate vs chelsea in the semi's. In 10 they got mauled by mou's inter. Couldn't break them down even down to 10 men! In 2011, which is seen by many as their 'peak' year(which I think is incorrect, 09 it was for me) they were fortunate vs real madrid and arsenal. Let's not forget what we saw in order to over hype them. We were the one team that sadly didn't stand a chance vs them but that wasn't the case vs the other top teams.
Did teams have to alter their tactics in order to beat them? Yes, but they did it cause it clearly worked. It threw them off their game and even to this day they haven't really found a solution against teams that do that.
I do think this seasons bayern isn't as good as last seasons simply because of the change in coach. They won't be as good when it comes to adjusting tactics. Can you see pep telling his team to lose the possession battle in order to hurt a team on the counter? Neither can I. They should've given jupp a couple more seasons and they'd have IMO entered the ajax(cruyff), madrd(di stefano), and munich(der kaiser) generations.
I disagree on the grounds that I think Jupp left at the right time. After losing out to Chelsea, Bayern were extremely determined to win the CL title especially after losing it in their home ground. That extra determination isn't there this season as they won the CL but it's been subverted by what Pep has brought in. SO in that sense, they peaked last season imo. The question is, can Pep take this Bayern team to a level even higher than under Heynckes and if so, what will that look like?
I'm not sure how much you've watched Bayern this season but they've been pretty flexible in the tactics they use. Pep loves to tinker! Bayern have scored a fair amount of their goals from crosses this season.
I'm not sure how much you've watched Bayern this season but they've been pretty flexible in the tactics they use. Pep loves to tinker! Bayern have scored a fair amount of their goals from crosses this season.
Yes I agree we haven't done it too well.
But, this is where I think the players are culpable as well. When you have institution that has been set in stone for decades, with players who whole-heartedly believe in that system, then comes along a new man with a new system but tragically does not have the credentials to convince his team - We have chaos.
I think this is our season in a nutshell. Once we get rid of some of the influential voices, who are very good players but not necessarily open to the new way forward, we will see some progress. Letting go of Rio and Vidic will do wonders for Moyes. They are powerful, respected voices, but necessarily on board with Moyes. Rio with his twitter nonsense, as well as his magazine. Remember when Torres left the team, Liverpool seemed to, at the time, inexplicably grow as a team? It can be a very positive effect.
Yes but didnt they get suarez shortly after?
They did. But, he wasn't as wonderful as he is right now at the time. We will do much the same in acquiring quality talent, after we lose them. But, the loss of one great player was able to bring the team together on the ideology and philosophy of the manager. See parallels that could work for us?
I agree. Definitely more versability in tactics. Also a better recipe against the bus parking lot.
I do. but a parallel is a parallel. it becomes problematic when you overly focus on that and forget about the factors which imo could carry more weight
I think Moyes will be similar to Sexton appointment. Where we'll improve but not really win anything.
You're right in that aspect. However, ours is a unique situation where a single manager who has been around for 25 years has just left. I can't think of any club of our size, having to face that situation.
I can only speculate on eventualities. I hope Moyes works out. But, if a fair try doesn't work out, we move on. Give him time to buy players, a good pre-season and play 15-20 games in the league. If he can't fix it or at least show marked improvement from this season by Christmas, he should go.
Plenty other clubs have I'm sure but you'd have to look through the history books. I would be willing to let him go if results dont improve for the rest of the season. But perhaps CL QFs were the minimum target he had to make to stay on this season.
i wonder what you'll do against us because i think we will park the buss
Well there might be, though none of our size in Europe comes to mind. But, I would remind you that we live in a whole new world. A world where technology is rampant. Every other day we have stories emanating from the club, players, tweets, magazines owned by players (Rio), speculation, mass media online and printed. No club has had to deal with that kind of pressure on the back of such a change in a club. You might think it's irrelevant but it's not. Every word printed plants seeds of doubt in the players, in the club, in the manager's head. They may not say it, but bad press has a major role to play. The media often use the word "pressure" on David Moyes. Speculating all that could happen to him. When all along he has said the club stands by him.
What the truth is irrelevant, as long as there is bad press, there is bad PR. A club like Man United who have huge commercial interests is affected by bad PR.
I don't think any club has had to deal with these seemingly extraneous pressures in the decades long past. All these things affect the manager, the team and the club. A modern day malaise.
Disagree, can't see how Yupp staying would've altered their determination. Surely they'd like emulate what the greatest sides ever did. When you're at the history making level they are at the determination will always be there.
Pep likes to tinker with player selection and player's positions but his tactics in terms of style of play and approach to games remain constant. He never changes that and has already implemented that at bayern. That's the big difference between them and this season and last. When they went to arsenal last season they ceded control of the ball in order to expose arsenal at the emirates, at alianz they kept it. Vs barca they ceded control of the ball in both games. This made them incredibly hard to beat which isn't gonna happen now, I'd say other elite teams have a better chance of beating them now than they did last season.
dude just stop. even during fergie's start the media was pretty hostile. yes it's a new world but a new world the players have for the most part grown up in. speculation through print has been going on for a long time. but are these players really reading ALL the bad press that's out there? Maybe they're seeing it on TV or in the papers but that's not really as bad as you're trying to make it out.
You need to see how the media is in other countries too. Besides, the media has been pretty easy-going on moyes compared to AVB. Bad press has been going on for ages like I said. There's not much players or managers can do about it so whether it affects them or not, I would tend to think they get on with the job. If you dont think any club has had to deal with such pressures then I think you're being myopic.
I mean how can you sit here and tell me the exact extent it's affecting the players, manager and club? I have no idea and it's worthless because we'd just be speculating. We are much better off commenting on things that we see on the pitch rather than trying to gauge how bad players and staff are being affected by the comments. The media isn't just poisonous here but other countries too and maybe even more poisonous.
There are more relevant issues which I think have affected our team. The media just compounds that to a certain degree.
We shall agree to disagree on the matter of new world problems. I was referring to the contemporary nature of manager leaving after 25 years. This case is unique. But, seeing as we won't see eye to eye on the issue. I shall stop. Cheers.
Pretty much every side that won something over last few years can be counted as lucky. Do you think Bayern would win it last year if Dante got his deserved red card against Borussia? Of course not.
Barcelona won it 2 times in 3 years, and were close in that third too, you cannot call that luck, and at the same time hail Bayern like they beat every team in the world 5-0, when in reality, on other day they wouldn't even win the final, because most refs would show red to Dante. Also who knows what would happen if Walcott wasn't called iffside in that game at Alianz Arena.
The fact that Barcelona did it 2 times in three years and were close to third speak for themselves, Bayern is yet to do that. They have excellent chance this year, but we'll see.
I think it's an assumption to say the determination will always be there. I dont really know what would have happened if Jupp stayed on. I'm sure they would like to emulate the greatest ever sides but that doesn't necessarily mean in some ways they would not experience a drop in determination especially since they were so determined to win it last season. Look at how determined we were to win the PL back last season under Fergie. Think there is something to be said about having victory taken away from you when it was so close and the resulting determination to right that wrong.
The determination to be the best side ever is a different determination than putting in all your effort to win something you felt you were so close to winning.
Well all you've done is highlight the difference between Jupp and Pep. I'm not sure how that addresses your earlier point about Bayern being more flexible last year.
Jupp was happy to give the opposition more time on the ball because the mid-high block of defenders and midfielders were ready to engage in pressing traps which made it difficult for the opposition to get much joy in the middle. That largely encapsulated what Jupp did. You've highlighted what Pep has done differently this season but he still has made adjustments tactically and strategically which have led bayern to winning some tough bundesliga matches they encountered.
All we're talking about here is the difference in basic shape and mostly defensively. The reason they may be easier to beat now is because Bayern arent the finished product under Pep. They were under Heynckes and I think it was pretty clear to see. If you disagree with that notion that's fine.
I think the "unique" card is overplayed. Look over at Arsenal. Their time will come Wenger leaves. I know what you're trying to say but I just think you're overstating. Unless you know exactly how it's affecting the players,managers and club, you're just speculating and you know it.
Nah obviously not united like downfall
but they went from the best in the world to 3rd best and further being hugely embarrassed by Bayern. If they had more plans in their locker and could play in different ways. They'd have stayed at the top for longer. This bayern team is versatile and can play in different ways.
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Of course I am! but so is everybody else. Aren't we all speculating when we say Moyes is tactically bad? or when we say Moyes doesn't know what he's doing? There are unseen variables at play here. I am merely counter-speculating, though I'd like to think with some level of logic. Anyway, that's the last you'll here from me on the matter. Cheers.
With the tactics? Tactics are pretty observable outcomes otherwise you wouldnt be telling me about the pressing. but there's definitely some aspect of it which is open to interpretation. Where the speculation comes in is drawing line between that and player performance. We're measuring what moyes is doing with some set standard arent we? (i.e. not making a sub for 75 mins against liverpool). anywho if you wish to discuss this no further that's fine. we can either hash it out in PM or a more relevant moyes thread
Then don't reply. A good 70% of what we talk about on this forum is hypothetical.
I don't get people replying to tell people you think they're opinion is bullshit or you don't care. Ignore the person. The fact that you wrote that long reply suggest otherwise. I watched both teams and it is my opinion.
what were the TOP teams Bayern dominated?
Barcelona last season when they faced Bayern were in a bigger disarray compared to the one we faced way back in 07/08.
THANK YOU!!!
It was FAR from a classic Barca team. They have individual talent to get them through games. But they relly struggled the whole of last season. At least 10 La Liga games that Messi single handedly turned around for them last season, especially from losing positions.
Yes, the basic shape and defensively. Bayern in the run in couldn't concede chances let alone a goal. They were always gonna score with that attack and the variety it possesses and the opposition couldn't. That IMO is what sets the two set ups apart and we've always seen that Peps set up can be vulnerable to a certain style of play provided its executed correctly, Jupp's didn't look vulnerable. Even in the pep perfect form which we saw at barca it was defensively flawed.
Jupp had games where he didn't give opposition teams time on the ball and used heavy pressing(arsenal home, juve home, final). The fact is this is an approach to matches that isn't done by pep. Pep's stuff is one dimensional. Jupp's wasn't and hence I'd say they were better or atleast wouldve stood a better chance of winning the CL again.
I answered to a specific point you made, which was wrong in my opinion and had nothing to do with your hypothetical match. You were the one going back to that hypothetical match.
Bayern of current have still a long way to go to be compared with Guardiolas Barcelona or Capello's Milan let alone the Sacchi's team. They're certainly on par with Tapies Marseille and United of 98/99.
With Guardiola around they're on the right track though, they might make it but still the mickey mouse nature of the Bundesliga should certainly rob the sheen off their European domination if it ever happens.
With Guardiola around they're on the right track though, they might make it but still the mickey mouse nature of the Bundesliga should certainly rob the sheen off their European domination if it ever happens.
I think the doping and match-fixing sets OM apart from other teams...
Before they won their CL, Tapie was busy shipping in all moving objects. Once they tasted the pie, its all about returns, he started rigging their league and went behind the bars.
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By the same logic, why wasnt Jupp's defensive schemes one-dimensional?
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Jupp like any other top manager ala Hiddink, Capello, Fergie, or Mourinho dealt with Barca the way it should be done. He didn't exactly reinvent the wheel.
Barcelonas defence and midfield were already wobbling that was apparent against the likes of Real, Milan and PSG. Against all these teams, Messi was able to gather some steam shore up Barcelona but was far from match fit against Bayern, a game he shouldn't have started.
Bayern made a meal out of their weakness.
That would make sense if they weren't trying to fix matches before the 1993 final, and if they weren't doping minutes before the final.
The main thing between Heynckes and Guardiola is that Guardiola values ball possession much more than Heynckes did.
But you should not judge e.g. the Heynckes area just for the last matches. Until Kroos was injured we played different - more on ball possession than later - whereas in the recent weeks of the year we won the CL with a van-Gaal-system adjusted by Heynckes. Adjusted as it was played with a higher workrate of the wingers and a better defensive midfield and defense. The attack was similar to that what van Gaal has built. I think it never mattered here if it was Olic, Gomez or Mandzukic as a forward - but the offensive midfield row with Robbery and a shadow striker in Müller stayed. I guess Müller especially in the Barcelona match played the exact version of that shadow striker - a striker minded offensive midfielder that comes from deep with a high workrate - van Gaal first implemented with Litmanen into the Ajax system. The van-Gaal-system in 09/10 (10/11 does not really count because there were not much further development because of the injury problems etc.) was not that flexible with more fixed position - but you first have to get stability in something before you can add creativity etc.
Earlier in the year - if Heynckes did not rotate - we played a system with Kroos as a 10 and Müller as right winger who partly in the match played a second striker or a second no. 10 in front of Kroos (then Lahm pushed more forward and played more offensively) when results were needed - or stayed in right winger position when the match needed more stability. In difference to the year before both sides were used for attacks equally.
The Bayern team and the system is fully in development. It is difficult to judge anything now. I do not see that Guardiola - even if he loves his technical skilled midfielders - does not have an open mind for changes or adjustments. And he just has a lot more options that he had at Barcelona.
@RooneyLegend Also you're exaggerating Bayern's defensive efficiency just a bit last season. For all their good work, they almost went out to Arsenal who won at Alianz Arena last season. As defensively good as they were, they still struggled from occasional lapses but they made it so it was a blip and were rock solid after that.
That Arsenal match - Bayern had 23 shots, 5 on target - Arsenal had 5 shots, 2 on target. That said everything. Matches like this happen.
One of the best matches Bayern made - and probably the most dominant this year - was against Leverkusen some ofter the Manchester City game in October. Bayern played 1:1. The goal was somewhat jinxed...
because he changed approaches to suit different games. Some games they pressed from the top and squeezed teams in, some games they let teams have the ball and squeezed them deeper. Did both just as well and that's the sort of tactical variety that Pep's way doesn't have. It gave bayern the capability to basically defend against any set up thrown at them, and they did.
i disagree. i dont think pep doesnt have that because bayern have used different pressing schemes this season. they are just more focused on possession and in some games that can take away from what they do defensively. pep has shown he can use the team in different ways. however, primarily the focus has been on possession. this is from the games i've seen and from the tactical reports i've read about.