I think the main thing that separates this Bayern team from Pep's Barca side in their prime is Messi. Bayern has a lot of quality players but just not one of Messi's quality which granted would have been very difficult.
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Yeah we lost twice to Barca, if Messi swapped sides we'd have won.
I see that absolutely different. I think not having a Messi is a big advantage.
And that does not have to do anything with the quality of Messi. But the problem is to depend on Messi - or if Messi has good cover or in special situation it does not help. Yes, in a lot matches Messi is having a show - but what is with the matches in which that does not work. It is not so different at Bayern where a lot people just make Robben or Ribery to heroes as in some of the matches especially at home they really excel - but that is just one part of the success that works in a lot matches - but not in all. At Bayern each one of the 4 or 5 attackers has his matches - if method one does not work, method 2 or 3 or 4 works. Sometimes Robben has it easy dribbling past opponents or Ribery makes a meal out of his - when this does not work you have a Mandzukic scoring headers from crosses or Müller ghosting through the area scoring goals with any body part. In the more difficult matches it is usually one of the later two that makes the first goal. Or even the defenders scoring goals after set pieces or somebody doing a direct freekick. Something always works. Sometimes a lot of it works. And if not Guardiola sends Mandzukic, Pizarro and Müller together onto the field and one of them scores or - in the shadow of them one of the others.
Guardiola right now often is experimenting - often starts with the more technical versions - but does not have any problems to adjust if things do not work out. I e.g. did not think that it was smart of Guardiola not to start Müller in the Arsenal second leg as I did not think it was a good sign after Müller scored in the first leg and had 4 goals and an assists in the two matches before - and he always scores in top matches in difference to the others - but he wanted to have more ball control and said that he would have started him when they would have had a 0:0 or 0:1 in the first leg. Things like this could run badly wrong - but until now his tactics usually worked out when it counted. Bayern still is in a transition period.
The art is not about winning the big matches - even if Bayern did that in style the recent season. It is to win all kind of matches where you have different problems and opponents. If somebody of you really watched Bundesliga you would have seen that Bayern had a lot difficult matches - but they always found a solution.
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I see that absolutely different. I think not having a Messi is a big advantage.
And that does not have to do anything with the quality of Messi. But the problem is to depend on Messi - or if Messi has good cover or in special situation it does not help. Yes, in a lot matches Messi is having a show - but what is with the matches in which that does not work. It is not so different at Bayern where a lot people just make Robben or Ribery to heroes as in some of the matches especially at home they really excel - but that is just one part of the success that works in a lot matches - but not in all. At Bayern each one of the 4 or 5 attackers has their matches - if method one does not work, method 2 or 3 or 4 works. Sometimes Robben has it easy dribbling past opponents or Ribery makes a meal out of his - when this does not work you have a Mandzukic scoring headers from crosses or Müller ghosting through the area scoring goals with any body part. In the more difficult matches it is usually one of the later two that makes the first goal. Or even the defenders scoring goals after set pieces or somebody doing a direct freekick. Something always works. Sometimes a lot of it works. And if not Guardiola sends Mandzukic, Pizarro and Müller together onto the field and one of them scores or - in the shadow of them one of the others.
Guardiola right now often is experimenting - often starts with the more technical versions - but does not have any problems to adjust if things do not work out. I e.g. did not think that it was smart of Guardiola not to start Müller in the Arsenal second leg as I did not think it was a good sign after Müller scored in the first leg and had 4 goals and an assists in the two matches before - and he always scores in top matches in difference to the others - but he wanted to have more ball control and said that he would have started him when they would have had a 0:0 or 0:1 in the first leg. Things like this could run badly wrong - but until now his tactics usually worked out when it counted. Bayern still is in a transition period.
The art is not about winning the big matches - even if Bayern did that in style the recent season. It is to win all kind of matches where you have different problems and opponents. If somebody of you really watched Bundesliga you would have seen that Bayern had a lot difficult matches - but they always found a solution.
Depending on Messi is never an issue because as opposed to other players he shows up in 95/100 games with scoring/assisting/running the show.
If anything, the prime Barca depended a lot more on Xavi than Messi, which is shown now. Ever since Xavi has declined Barca haven't been the same. He was the sailor of the ship, he decided when the team keeps possession and tires the opposition and when it switches gears and tears the opposition to bits. Messi was his biggest weapon, but it was him who decided when to unleash it.
And even then, Barca's biggest asset was their ability to keep the ball under any amount of pressure the opposition can put and that was not limited to individuals. It was a unit being so much more than the sum of it's parts that made that team special.
I think your point is valid only when it comes to scoring, even then not fully. Yes Bayern has a lot more options who can come up with goals while Barca usually relied on Messi (not a big issue though, he's their all time scorer with 370 goals at the age of 26) but in terms of keeping up the performance and continuing to dominate possession and not letting the other team a sniff, it never depended on an individual. Possibly a group of 5-6, yes, but not one. It couldn't have, that completely goes against their philosophy.
Having Messi is only a problem if you optimize the whole team to his advantage only.
Barca did that over last 2 season and have suffered. It allowed Messi to break goal scoring record but as a team they went backwards.
Barca did that over last 2 season and have suffered. It allowed Messi to break goal scoring record but as a team they went backwards.
True, and for me that had to do with Xavi's decline as well. As long as he was at his peak they never were worried about scoring because the goals eventually came. Usually from Messi but a lot from other areas as well. If I am not wrong 08-09 had quite an even spread between the front three, though Messi played a lot on the right then. But once Xavi started going down they lacked that ability to string a choreographed move to perfection which usually had Xavi in the center of it all and had to rely on individual brilliance of Messi a lot more.
Having said that IMO that was the best route, because it is impossible to replicate the chemistry they had between Xavi and Iniesta. People throw around stuff like Cesc will replace him when he moved to Barca but even if he was capable of replacing his final ball or unpredictability (to an extent, I've rarely seen a passer as unpredictable as Xavi) he would have never replaced the same movement and understanding they had earlier.
I really loved that Barca team in 10-11 and love tiki taka in general.
Well I hate tik-tika. Messi is the only one that makes Barca watchable for me since Spain bore me to death.
I am not sure I agree that it had all to do with decline of Xavi. Buys like Sanchez not hitting the ground running, made dependence on Messi even more. Before that having a peak Etoo or Villa was crucial. Messi also seemed to become more selfish over few seasons, possibly due to the number competition with Ronaldo. He justified it but it affected other attackers' play.
I am not sure I agree that it had all to do with decline of Xavi. Buys like Sanchez not hitting the ground running, made dependence on Messi even more. Before that having a peak Etoo or Villa was crucial. Messi also seemed to become more selfish over few seasons, possibly due to the number competition with Ronaldo. He justified it but it affected other attackers' play.
well this season messi has actually become more focused on playmaking then probably ever... he just never moves to support teammates, just walking around until he decides it's a good moment to get active or attack space, get the ball. I don't know if that's because he's struggling physically or what. This season he's become one hell of a playmaker though, alot LESS selfish then before, he looks for passes every other time he's on the ball.
2011/12 messi was pretty preoccupied with scoring it seemed, (not that it had anything to do with ronaldo i'd think, seeing that he outscored ronaldo by what, 30 goals that season?) but since then... it's just been stamina that's affecting messi, he's not been more selfish.
Considering he usually topped the charts for assists and chances created I won't say he became selfish. It's just what the false 9 role demands. Unless you have wide forwards scoring consistently, which as you mentioned wasn't the case, the false 9 has to take the burden. Even then he's always more than happy to play others in, but so many of his through balls go waste which is why he has to step up himself. He didn't even have any issue when that dopey retard Maradona played him as a CM in the WC.
Barcelona between '09 and '11 were a different breed.
Optimizing Messi's performances to their peak and not buying CBs to improve their solidity have nothing in common. I think this an area they neglected because their great possession would strive opponents from scoring chances and they were right in a way. Same thing applies for not having a player like Xavi to replace him and keep up the same level of performance (Thiago could have been that player and Cesc clearly isn't and wasn't meant to be that player anyway).
Messi breaking all the goalscoring records in the last 2-3 years has been a blessing for them as for whatever reasons they never decided to improve other areas.
I'm just saying that Messi could have still performed as well as he has with a better Barca at the back and in midfield.
Best team ever arguably.
Yeah I agree, this season he is playing in others more. But there was a two season stretch when he just tried to dribble every time rather than play a pass to someone in better position. Ofcourse he converted so many of those dribble so it is hard to complain.
This season I think he is bothered about being fit for the WC. There is no question he would rather win the WC than any other title with Barca now. Though I do think he will be up for it if Barca draw Real or Bayern
That's fair but a peak Barca never had a solid defense. They won the final against us with Toure in defense and many other times played Abidal there as well.
In CM he had the trio of Biscuits-Iniesta-Xavi, which can't be bettered.
Yes and that's because their midfield and general pressure general from the whole team was amazing, once their pressure game lowered in terms of intensity their defenders got more and more exposed to their true level. It's hard to say what they should have done but them having a weaker pressure game isn't something new, it's been noticed since 2012 so maybe then they should have acquired better defenders. They're still a great team.
Definitely have the potential to be counted as one of the best ever. Not there yet, imo.
I think you will find that he was talking about Barcas side from 09-11. Not the current Bayern side.
My bad then.
After reading some of these comments about Barca, I really wonder how it ever happened that they didn't win, let alone lost a game. Don't get me wrong, they are in my top 3 club sides of all time as well, but they really did a trick on United fans in those 2 finals. No team ever was as invincible as some of you describe them and what made them so special was at the same time their biggest flaw. They were probably the most consistent team ever, they played every game the same way, which is nothing but admireable, they forced opponents to play their game all the time. But the lack of a 2nd dimension was what made it vulnerable, when they faced a team that could handle the pressure.
What makes them standout is not only how they played and that they were so incredibly successful, but the impact they had on the game. They changed how football is seen today, influenced countless other teams in so many ways. That's what sets them apart, imo, and that's something that this Bayern team probably can't ever match, even if we win 3 consecutive CL titles. The same was the case with the United team 6 years ago, btw. No one outside of England talked about United becoming the greatest team of all time, if they defend the CL title in '09. There's a difference between the most successful and the greatest teams of all time. That's why Real in the 50's, Bayern in the 70's or Liverpool in the late 70's/early 80's weren't as great as Cruyff's Ajax was and it will be the same here, unless Guardiola really is a miracle worker and pulls something off that no one sees coming at the moment.
What I disagree with, is the idea that none of our players can match the performances of Xavi and Iniesta. Ribery was every bit as influential for us last season as Iniesta was for Barca at their peak, same goes for Schweinsteiger and Xavi. You can't play a season like we did last year without those players putting in alltime great performances regularly. You don't destroy teams home and away in the CL like we did without your key players being that good and it's no coincidence that in our only bad game in the knockout stages both were missing. Just like it's no coincidence that their tactical awareness during the final and their selfless play was the key to turn the CL final around and gave us control of the game after being outplayed in the beginning.
What makes them standout is not only how they played and that they were so incredibly successful, but the impact they had on the game. They changed how football is seen today, influenced countless other teams in so many ways. That's what sets them apart, imo, and that's something that this Bayern team probably can't ever match, even if we win 3 consecutive CL titles. The same was the case with the United team 6 years ago, btw. No one outside of England talked about United becoming the greatest team of all time, if they defend the CL title in '09. There's a difference between the most successful and the greatest teams of all time. That's why Real in the 50's, Bayern in the 70's or Liverpool in the late 70's/early 80's weren't as great as Cruyff's Ajax was and it will be the same here, unless Guardiola really is a miracle worker and pulls something off that no one sees coming at the moment.
What I disagree with, is the idea that none of our players can match the performances of Xavi and Iniesta. Ribery was every bit as influential for us last season as Iniesta was for Barca at their peak, same goes for Schweinsteiger and Xavi. You can't play a season like we did last year without those players putting in alltime great performances regularly. You don't destroy teams home and away in the CL like we did without your key players being that good and it's no coincidence that in our only bad game in the knockout stages both were missing. Just like it's no coincidence that their tactical awareness during the final and their selfless play was the key to turn the CL final around and gave us control of the game after being outplayed in the beginning.
how do resident bayern fans feel about this article? http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424052702303802104579451372184655890.html @Balu @strongwalker @Blackwidow (apologies to anyone else who is a bayern fan & i left you out. these are 3 i usually see talking about bayern)
"Bored endlessly" micht come close. That kind of discussion is everywhere in the mdia over here. So, what exactly are Bayern supposed to do? Fire Ribery, Schweini and Pep to make the league more interesting?
The question rather is, how do teams like Liverpool, Spurs, Everton or Atletico manage to keep up with the overwhelmingly rich and powerful clubs.
Truth still is, money doesn't auto-grant success, there are enogh traps around to fall into, see City the last couple of years. Bayern are filthy rich, but they also -currently- make very few mistakes. There is no chance they will become poor all of a sudden, but there is also nor guarantee things will run there as smoothly as they currently do.
Only i see a sort of resignation on the other teams side, finding excuses for own failures, instead of working steadily to be there and ready when this happens.
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We'll be happy to take those three. For greater good, obviously.
i did read in 15/16 tv money will be equally distributed so thats good
Time to ban the Bayern fans then?
The same Dortmund fans that told us for two years how outdated our system was, how far behind we are tactically and that we will struggle to catch them despite spending money, the same fans that talked about how Schweinsteiger is too slow and can't adapt and will never lead us to a title, the same fans that told us after last season, that Götze isn't that important because his creativity is overrated and his pressing wasn't good enough for them and they will be better now, are now crying that it's all boring. Load of nonsense. It'll change again, it always does. Football is so unpredictable, so much is about mentality and determination. The same fans that talked down on Bayern fans for being spoilt and shit for years are now criticised by their own players for being spoilt.
Since we started discussing football on the internet, it's all about now, not about development anymore. 3 weeks today feel like 3 years 15 years ago. Teams and players turn from worldclass to overrated in 2 or 3 games, not in 2 or 3 seasons. Soon enough we talk again about how shit Bayern's management is to not win the title every season despite a financial advantage.
The TV money is shared fairly im Germany with about the same factors like in England. The first gets about the double of the last. But the TV money is a lot lower than in the EPL.
Very good post. Not 2 years ago I have read articles about the end of an hierarchy, about players being totally bottlers, about Dortmund's players being superior, about the system being superior...
And now...
We are going to outcross these feckers. Their byline will constantly be reached.
You can only cross if you have the ball...
Well each time we'll have it, we'll cross it, no matter the area of the pitch.
Exactly, winning and losing is really secondary as long as the team in question gave performances at the level Barca did. Day in day out for 3 years they relentlessly kept the ball no matter who the opposition was, or what the occasion was. They showed the same hunger and passion in a dead league game or a CL final. They never lost motivation, but the biggest thing is they never lost patience and persistence. People can laugh all they want about tiki-taka being boring but it is the most difficult strategy to implement. Not only does it require immense technical ability from each player, but that off the ball movement and above all the chemistry which was telepathic was what made it so special. It'll take a miracle to see another combination like Xavi-Iniesta. Even when they train they are like two bodies but one mind, and the effort required to make something like that natural is unreal. Ribery or Bastian can surpass their performances individually for all I care but they or anyone else will never match that chemistry and the ability to have the game completely in their pocket against any team.
They approached the game in the right way, they focused on performance and playing their game to perfection and the results simply followed. A few times they didn't but I am glad they never thought of altering their strategy just to get a few more results in their favour and make the stats look happy. Their philosophy, their principles are embedded greatly in them and that gets all my respect.
I don't see why winning every single game should govern why a team is great and not what they do on the pitch and how they do it. I appreciate Bayern's record and win% etc and full credit to them, but for me that's really secondary. Sacchi won a total of one league title at Milan, lost on many occasions, got trounced by Napoli mainly due to his tactics, none of that stops him or that team in being rated as one of the best and rightly so. Holland in 74 lost the final, but if you tell Michels that you can go back, replay the match, and you are guaranteed a win only if you give up your philosophy and play a straight forward rigid formation, will he accept it? Not in a million years and it would be the right decision. When you have something as special as they did or Barca did, you shouldn't be focussing on results one bit.
"And it's David de Gea with a brilliant cross to Carrick, who crosses it up the pitch... Neuer!"
Sorry, couldn't resist...
I prefer to have nice football - but the target in football is to win matches and to have more goals at the end than the other team. There is different ways to do it - and I prefer the more artistic ones . But actually it is not about having the most of the ball or doing the most tricks, showing the best dribblings or about the best technicans, not even to have the best and fastest individuals. It is about getting the ball into the other ones net more than the other team does it. An ugly 1:0 win is better than a 0:2 loss (but we played so great).
I was thinking more about the biggest games.
The Bundesliga is a VERY lopsided league, comparable to France and Scotland only. So I don't take so much from their league record. I'm more interested in their European football. Bayern were amazing last year but in terms of dominance and style you haven't surpassed United 06-09 and you haven't reached the levels of Pep's Barca.
Completely opposite for me.
Clearly our 7-0 thrashing of Barca was less dominant than United beating a Barca team in disarray without Ronaldinho 1-0.
And even in that disarray we didn't really dominate them. Especially in the second leg where we parked the bus in the second half with just a 1-0 lead. We did create a few chances and they were wasted by Nani and Tevez if I remember correctly, but it wasn't dominating them at all. In fact Henry had a great chance to put Barca in the final when he got a free header late in the game, just that he gave it straight to VDS.When they had Alves-Puyol-Pique-Abidal they were very solid in defence.
And that is bullocks. No. 2 downwards have as many points in the league as they had the 10 or 20 years before that.
And apart from dead rubbers Bayern played against the European opponents just with similar results as against the Bundesliga opponents. Some of the Bundesliga opponents even were much more difficult matches...
I hate this - they are not so good there league must be shit - bullocks. Or do you think the results would be much different when it would be in the EPL... Nobody said that when Dortmund was winning or in the years prior to this when Bayern was not that superior...
The Barca that limped through against PSG, were a post width away from going out to AC, you were hardly playing a vintage Barca side.
If the two teams had to play I couldn't pick a clear winner.
It isn't rubbish, look at your team. You are able to take the best players of your closest rivals. If you were in the Premiership or even La Liga, you would not dominate like this, there are other teams of top quality.
What I don't get is this: How come everybody unquestioningly subscribed to the "you buy all your rivals best players" stuff.
Name 4 players in the last 5 years that we signed from our "nearest rivals". Bear in mind: Dortmund was already around 20 points behind when the Götze-bomb was droppped last year. Apart from him, though?
Everything else is fantasy. What if Real were in the Bundesliga? They wouldn't be allowed to spend as much as they like and the state wouldn't help them with buyouts/tax crap and so on...
What if I was a car? Could I honk?