It amazes me when people try to revise the history of things that happened not even five years ago.
Bayern Munich
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The Barca team your lot played was far worse, finished 3rd in the league and almost 20 points behind the league winners R.Madrid. Whereas last season they won the league with with 100 points and 15 ahead of R.Madrid.
To compare the teams is ridiculous, Bayern last season went to our place, Juve's ground & Barca and dominated all three teams away from home. In 06-09 your team was never on that kind of level.
It was still a Barca side that finished on 100 points in the league, setting a club record and winning the title while Barca in '08 finished 3rd behind Villareal. Not sure what you're trying to say here, but at no point did United dominate a team that walked the arguably strongest league in the world the way Bayern did with Barca last season. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. You can't honestly believe that the Barca team United faced in '08 was stronger than Barca last season?
To be fair even we've taken 2 top quality players from our rivals. As for Bayern, Lewandowski is still a Dortmund player.
Also I think last season's Barcelona > 2008 version. Messi was having a career season and they equalled the La Liga points tally. The Milan game was a fluke of sorts without the Argentine. To dismantle any Barcelona side at Camp Nou is a feat in itself.
Yes I get it I'll go wear my west ham jersey now and join RAWK.
You're right, we snatched Lahm from FT Gern, Schweini from Kolbermoor and Müller from Pähl, that secured our D-Youth a couple of titles. Other than that: Neuer/11, Mandzu and Dante 2012, Götze 2013, Three and a half players in 3 years time, that is mighty...
All but Götze wouldn't be playing at their "old" teams any more, even if Bayern hadn't bought them.
I like the humor of the author of FC Bayern's facebook page:
And we really killed Pähl with that then. I mean Müller bagged more than 120 goals in the season before he came to Bayern and won the Merkur cup... And we killed the competition in the German skiing team with getting Schweinsteiger - he won his last duel against Felix Neureuther the guy who missed this years slalom world cup total by about 5 points... And Lahm's poor rabbits - he did not have much time anymore for them after that...
Why are you making excuses. Have you not signed their two best players in back to back summers ? Are they not your closest rivals? Where else in the world could that happen?
You take the best players in Germany, that is what Bayern does. You look likely to sign Draxler too. What it means s that no team can mount a challenge against you for a significant amount of time. Rode is coming in the summer too. It is a one team league, the teams chasing you are not bad, far from but there is a comfortable gap.
Don't reply to me if you don't want to have a serous discussion. Basically this s the best team ever to you and anybody who questions it is silly.
They were worst I agree, but like I said putting those two teams on the pitch I see it as a 50/50 battle. Neither would beat Barca at their peak imo.
I watched a lot of Barca last season, Messi carried them to that title. The holes that are showing this season were there and he papered over them. He was literally the difference, he wasn't fit against you, Busquets was injured too. It was a weaker Barca team far from their best. I never said it was, my point was the Barca team that you beat was not vintage.
My point is that a match between this team and our 06-09 team would be even, I didn't say we were better at any point.
No where did I say the '08 team of Barca was better than the 13 Barca. My point was that they were far from vintage. Mess was injured, Busquets and Xavi too. Saying that team and our 06-09 team are even is no disrespect to Bayern. Two great teams.
I like the humor of the author of FC Bayern's facebook page:
I don't get it.
I thought placing Thiago below the United crest was a little poke at United's summer transfer saga.
I don't care about a hypothetical match between teams that never faced each other, because football teams are build to beat the teams they face and are therefore heavily influenced by the time they play in. That's why they should be judged on what they actually did on the pitch, not on what in theory could have happened.
You made the following comment earlier:
United in their best season weren't able to dominate a weaker Barca team in disarray that missed their best player like we did last season, so I call it bullshit. United 06-09 never went away to top teams and dominated them like this Bayern team does, it was always about looking for a draw away and finishing the job at home, more about being tough to beat than about dominating. We haven't surpassed the success of that United side, that I agree with. In terms of dominating performances in the biggest games, it's obvious that our last season was on a completely different level though. Not sure what you mean by style, but that's highly subjective anyway, so I don't care.
Also, we won the treble without taking a single player from our closest rival, a team that we also faced in the CL final after they beat strong English and Spanish teams. If that doesn't count as strong domestic competition, then I don't know what does.
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I think I'd fancy Bayern against Barca at their peak, to be honest. Last season's Bayern anyway were a better defensive unit and counter attacking machine than any team Barca faced and struggled with during their peak (Chelsea 09, Inter 2010, Arsenal and Madrid (debatable on the counter attacks I guess) 2011).
Both teams under Pep would be more interesting because unlike Heynckes he'd be go toe to toe with Barca to try dominate the game, which might work in Barca's favour.
Both teams under Pep would be more interesting because unlike Heynckes he'd be go toe to toe with Barca to try dominate the game, which might work in Barca's favour.
You've spouted an insane amount of guff recently
Spot on. If there was a match between that United and this Bayern I'd definitely back Bayern. United as you said would be hard to beat specially as our defense was spectacular but I'd bank on Bayern to come with a win eventually mainly due to the polyfunctionality throughout the team as well as more balance than United had.
Domination is the new possession, we just need a system to workout % Domination and we're sorted.
It was more to do with the horror at Milan 2007. We realised that gang ho style is not the way forward and we should look to get a decent result in the 1st leg and then finish the game in the 2nd. This was what we needed to do and it paid off and we went unbeaten that season and that sets us apart from other teams that've won the competition.
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I don't think Milan was much to do with being gung ho - we were absolutely knackered by the end of that season, we had to come back from 2-0 down at Goodison park a few days before the 2nd leg whilst Milan rested their team in the league because they had nothing to play for. We were also missing most of our first choice back line and Vidic who did play wasn't fully fit.
Overall though I agree it was smart of us to take a more cautious style, but that's because we didn't have the overall quality of this Bayern team who can go to any ground and play them off the park.
yea jaffyjoe lost in this one. our 06-09 never really dominated the opposition consistently. However, we were very effective in what we did and executed our gameplans to perfection. Not really seen an English club 'dominate' throughout a CL campaign mainly because the English adaptations to European football still have focus on hurting opposition through transitions more than total domination.
i disagree in that while we may not have had the overall quality this cureent bayern team does, we still had the capabilities to dominate the opposition. but English teams rarely set up this way. Just doesnt seem to be in the DNA of UK teams. far too direct. we only really dominated teams we felt we had a clear advantage over and usually of lower quality. it's no criticism to our coaching staff under Fergie but how often did we in CL ties impose oursekves on the opponent?
do you mean we were only team to go unbeaten in CL era? if so then no.
Here are all the teams who have done it in CL era:
Milan 93-94
Ajax 95-96
United 98-99, 07-08
Marseille 92-93
Barcelona 05-06
Funny. United's 98-99 season saw unbeaten CL run and triumph with lowest amount of wins (5).
In 07-08, we had 9 wins and 4 draws, which was the same run of form of the Barca 05-06 team. So we are the last team to go unbeaten in CL but we did not dominate games compared to Bayern of last year and Barca 09-11 team.
There's a huge difference between stating an opinion on a penalty call, stating an opinion on who was the better of two players, and stating that from 2009-2011, teams genuinely had no chance of winning against Barcelona.
No I didn't say it sets it apart from 'all' the teams that've won the competition. Maybe I should have included 'since' in my last sentence to make it clearer. We didn't dominate because we didn't need to.
We played the effective way and it worked. Its not in English philosophy to play like that as you said.
Fixed.
We were missing Neville and Ferdinand and it really lead to our downfull towards the end of the season. We were better than Milan and if we had a fully fit team, we'd have gone through.
Disagree with that the team were more not good enough to dominate. A team having the best player in the world , ageing but one of the best midfielders in the world forming a solid partnership with Carrick, the best defensive partnership in the world and two forwards who could run rings around any team, are more than good enough to dominate. The only thing was that most of our attackers weren't experienced enough. Ronaldo,Rooney,Nani,Anderson and Tevez were still young or/and just joined recently.
In a couple of seasons. If ronaldo and tevez stayed and we spent 30m on a midfielder rather than berbatov. The team had the potential to become one of if not the best club side of all time.
And btw I count this bayern team as superior to barca 09-11 maybe not individually but how effective they're and that's what more important.
09-11 side is overrated a bit. I don't know where this myth of Barcelona going away and dominating top teams in Europe come from. In those 3 years they won just 2 of their 9 knockout away ties thats included wins against real Madrid and shakhtar. Which us and Bayern had/have easily surpassed.
09-11 side is overrated a bit. I don't know where this myth of Barcelona going away and dominating top teams in Europe come from. In those 3 years they won just 2 of their 9 knockout away ties thats included wins against real Madrid and shakhtar. Which us and Bayern had/have easily surpassed.
i'm sorry. i'm really tired and for whatever reason am just not comprehending what you originally meant by set apart.
more than one way to look at domination though. The way I've seen it phrased relative to Barca 09-11 side is the way they seemed to force teams to adjust their style of play while they never altered theirs. thereby, always imposing their style of play in each game which can be viewed as a form of domination. this domination is mainly justified by a means to an end because if they didn win anything in that period, they would not have been viewed the same.
And this lead to their downfall as well. Teams like Chelsea,Bayern and Inter knew how to make their style ineffiective and they couldn't adjust.
Downfall? They're still a top 3 team in the world. Inter's development after winning the CL could be described as a downfall, but Barca's?. Also they peaked after they went out against Inter in 2010. The 10/11 season was clearly their best in terms of performances. Of course other teams will catch up at some point, no team plays consistently on the same level for a decade, you get 3-4 years and then you drop and rebuild. It's always been that way.
Bayern have possibly reached a higher level than we hit at any point between 06 and 09. But Barca were better for me.
The way I see it is that Bayern toppled Barca last season after the latter really dominated for good while. Now we will have to see whether Bayern do what Barca did or if the likes of Barca themselves get right back up there.
The way I see it is that Bayern toppled Barca last season after the latter really dominated for good while. Now we will have to see whether Bayern do what Barca did or if the likes of Barca themselves get right back up there.
it's not about that, talent to talent of course last seasons barca was superior, it's essentially the same as the team that won the 2010 cl in one of the most dominating fashions in the past decade or two, but obviously that barca is FAR superior to the one last year, why? the team sucked ass, and tito viloneuva didn't know what he was doing at all. bayern in that game were phenomenal though, so i'd neither discredit bayern, nor deem barcelona's 100 point league finish as indicative of anything other then that they steamrolled everyone except real. barca that season was dominated by almost every team of equal talent... real madrid could have bettered the scoreline you guys achieved over two legs in one single match... that's how bad barca were in 2012.. people really don't understand how bad they were because i'm seeing how clear it is that very few closely watched barca last year.
So this is new for me. First post with the big boys. Thank you mods
I'll just type in what I said in the noob section.
This is a perfect opportunity for David Moyes to show that he isn't as tactically inept as he has been perceived to be. Up against a master tactician, if he can keep us in a fight and not embarrass ourselves over two legs, I'd be reasonably happy. Then again, I do actually believe that we'll play quite well. Here's why...
I believe that half the problem David Moyes has with the team is motivation. Right after the Liverpool game he said something quite peculiar in the press conference: " We need to work together now."
That may not seem much, but if I'm right he hasn't said once before. It's just a single sentence, but it reveals a lot because why would you say that? Isn't it a given that the team works together with the manager? It's like saying, we need to start running on the pitch now (it's a given! no need for it to be said.)
So hearing that, I understood that there's a problem with the players believing in the manager and his tactics. Explains why we've been so up and down this season. But, the thing with a knockout competition like the CL is, it's played over two legs and your odds of winning are just the same as the other. The players don't need motivation to play against Europe's best. We've played, arguably, our best football in Europe which is strange considering we've faced tougher teams than premier league minnows (to whom we've lost) and beaten them. Hell we annihilated Bayer Leverkusen over two legs.
The point here is, Moyes isn't tactically bad, he's just not been able to motivate his players. It's expected I guess, following up on the greatest manager Britain has ever seen with zero accolades to your name was an unfair situation. But, he's stuck to it. It must be a really steep learning curve for him.
Moyes has previously said that he's a big fan of German football and that he likes to study the tactics they employ. He even said he wanted to work there before he got the United job. This is Moyes's opportunity to show what he's made of.
If he fails miserably, he'll be booed to the rafters. If he manages to keep us in it to the final whistle, the players and the fans will give him a bit more respect. If he manages to beat Bayern over two legs (nigh on impossible!), then I think that ought to convince a whole lot of people here about Moyes and his tactics.
I'll just type in what I said in the noob section.
This is a perfect opportunity for David Moyes to show that he isn't as tactically inept as he has been perceived to be. Up against a master tactician, if he can keep us in a fight and not embarrass ourselves over two legs, I'd be reasonably happy. Then again, I do actually believe that we'll play quite well. Here's why...
I believe that half the problem David Moyes has with the team is motivation. Right after the Liverpool game he said something quite peculiar in the press conference: " We need to work together now."
That may not seem much, but if I'm right he hasn't said once before. It's just a single sentence, but it reveals a lot because why would you say that? Isn't it a given that the team works together with the manager? It's like saying, we need to start running on the pitch now (it's a given! no need for it to be said.)
So hearing that, I understood that there's a problem with the players believing in the manager and his tactics. Explains why we've been so up and down this season. But, the thing with a knockout competition like the CL is, it's played over two legs and your odds of winning are just the same as the other. The players don't need motivation to play against Europe's best. We've played, arguably, our best football in Europe which is strange considering we've faced tougher teams than premier league minnows (to whom we've lost) and beaten them. Hell we annihilated Bayer Leverkusen over two legs.
The point here is, Moyes isn't tactically bad, he's just not been able to motivate his players. It's expected I guess, following up on the greatest manager Britain has ever seen with zero accolades to your name was an unfair situation. But, he's stuck to it. It must be a really steep learning curve for him.
Moyes has previously said that he's a big fan of German football and that he likes to study the tactics they employ. He even said he wanted to work there before he got the United job. This is Moyes's opportunity to show what he's made of.
If he fails miserably, he'll be booed to the rafters. If he manages to keep us in it to the final whistle, the players and the fans will give him a bit more respect. If he manages to beat Bayern over two legs (nigh on impossible!), then I think that ought to convince a whole lot of people here about Moyes and his tactics.
What the feck are you talking about? Barca wasn't steamrolled by everyone, nor did everyone beat them like Bayern did. Could have really? And the comparison wasn't to 2009 or 2011 - Barca didn't win the CL in 2010, not sure why you're talking about that year - it was to the Barca side in 2008 that went out against United, a side that was in an even worse state than Barca last year and also played without their best player, Ronaldinho back then.
He's right. Barcelona destroyed every team that wasn't as good as them, but whenever they played against a top team they were awful. Messi had an insane contribution to their point total, one of the biggest ever.
Barcelona could've conceded 7 or 8 in the clásico, there's a Youtube video with all the chances there as well. They were carried against PSG by Messi, carried against Milan by Messi, carried against Real Madrid by Messi.
Bayern were better than any other team Barcelona faced and they did what other teams couldn't and ripped them apart. Still a better side than the last year under Rijkaard, though.
Barcelona could've conceded 7 or 8 in the clásico, there's a Youtube video with all the chances there as well. They were carried against PSG by Messi, carried against Milan by Messi, carried against Real Madrid by Messi.
Bayern were better than any other team Barcelona faced and they did what other teams couldn't and ripped them apart. Still a better side than the last year under Rijkaard, though.
to be fair, against both chelsea and inter, they simply didnt put away their chances and paid the price for it. only game i thought they were well beaten was 3-1. the 7-0, barca were physically outmatched and couldn't grab a foothold in either game.
remember at stamford bridge they hit the post twice. at the bridge and the return legs v chelsea and inter, barca outshot both and had more shots on target. but like i said, they did not capitilise on their chances while the other teams did and that was simply that for me.
oh yes they were, absolutely dominated. they were just awful in 2012/13 and there's no arguing that imo.
and i'm referring to the 2011 cl barcelona.. the season 2010/11 obviously.. where they won 5-0 against real madrid in november 2010..
also, what are you actually talking about? where did i say barcelona were steamrolled by everyone? i said they steamrolled everyone except real, the only team to realistically challenge them. real madrid decimated barcelona that season. just woeful was barcelona. i watch a hell of alot of barcelona, so don't correct me unless you have SUBSTANTIAL evidence, beyond ambiguous second party experiences, and reliances on media opinions etc.
just calm down and realise i have nothing personal against you, i just disagree with your view. you've misread alot of what i've said, for some reason.