Arturo Vidal

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Adebesi said:
I think if Valencia came in for Vidal with a lower figure Juve would say no thanks, it's not worth it, we'll keep him. Like when we sold Ronaldo. At 80m we had to sell. But that wasn't because it was Real. We wouldn't have sold him for less to Valencia. It's just only Real would pay that. Maybe only we or one or two other clubs have the clout to make Juve sell Vidal.
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exactly. Juve know we have finance and so the will push for a higher price. But the higher price is not what he is worth, but due to the fact that we are demanding him. because vidal is deemed a unique player in short supply according to juve they push the price up. So we have a unique player and we demand him, and both combine to push up his price.

what i would be saying to juve we have plan B should they choose not to accept our offer. hopefully that would drive down the price. its sets a dangerous precedent, buying a MF for 50 million who will only get maybe 7/8 goals a season in a tough league.
 
northbynorthwest said:
that is part and parcel of my point. That man utd come looking for him, the selling club up there price. Vidal is worth in and around the 30ish mark. shaw was worth about 17 million at most. mata was about 26ish. but because it is man utd and we have such revenues the prices inflate.
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There's no way that Vidal is only worth 30m. Juventus would never sell for that price, regardless of which club is trying to buy him. The price will be higher than that because that is what Vidal is worth, both just generally and also to Juventus as an asset, not because it's Man United bidding for him.
 
northbynorthwest said:
the prices are inflationary. second of all he is coming from a different league so we dont know how he would perform in the PL. 50 million is a huge risk.
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If there was one player who'd thrive in the Prem - its Vidal. He loves the physical aspect of the game. He's wasted in Serie A & he'd be wasted in La Liga too - you cant tackle there. Players hit the deck just lookin at them..

There's always a risk in signing players, thats why clubs pamper the shit out of them outside of the game. They help them to settle quickly, to enable them to concentrate fully on their football - when on the pitch & in training..
 
northbynorthwest said:
those prices are seriously inflated. we have already spent 60 million + the 37 for mata. Vidal is not worth 50 million. Pogba isnt worth that much. what happens is clubs inflate their prices when we come along. Chelsea got costa for 32 million. which would be around reasonable.

neil lennon was saying that there isnt a player bar messi that is worth 60 million. What happens is given the success of the PL and its revenues, selling clubs start asking for more money. But the prices are inflationary. Scholes was right in that for such an amount of money, you would be expecting 30 goals a season. vidal wont do that
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Neil Lennon is a old fossil if he did say and needs to get with times.

Clubs get shit loads of money, If clubs can get 10 year kit sponsorship deals for £1 billion, surely players (a clubs main asset) is worth £50m+?

If clubs want these massive sponsorship deals/sucess and making money in general you have to be the best on the pitch and the only way to do that is pay out for the best players and they cost money.

United have always snooped through Tesco's bargain basket for a dented tin of baked beans or Tesco's own brand, look where's got us, no European football next season, you want the best you've got to do what City/Madrid/Barcelona do, buy Heinz.
 
I think value is far more elastic than you are giving it credit for. There is no concrete figure as you seem to imply, he is worth what we are willing to pay and whatever it takes to make Juve part with him.

I don't deny there is logic to what you are saying. I don't disagree he is very expensive and I understand any reluctance to pay what it would take. I suggest SAF might agree with your view, which is perhaps why we haven't signed a midfielder for so long. My view is we need a player of his quality and should pay up. The precedent has already been set. Hopefully at some point in the future we'll be in a stronger position, we won't have to pay such massive sums as we'll have better options. Right now I think the option is this, or get an interior player for less money.
 
NoWinNoFee said:
Neil Lennon is a old fossil if he did say and needs to get with times.

Clubs get shit loads of money, If clubs can get 10 year kit sponsorship deals for £1 billion, surely can players (a clubs main asset) is worth £50m+?

If clubs want these massive sponsorship deals/sucess and making money in general you have to be the best on the pitch and the only way to do that is pay out for the best players and they cost money.
.
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i agree. i just dont think the prices correlate with what they are asking.
 
Adebesi said:
I think value is far more elastic than you are giving it credit for. There is no concrete figure as you seem to imply, he is worth what we are willing to pay and whatever it takes to make Juve part with him.

I don't deny there is logic to what you are saying. I don't disagree he is very expensive and I understand any reluctance to pay what it would take. I suggest SAF might agree with your view, which is perhaps why we haven't signed a midfielder for so long. My view is we need a player of his quality and should pay up. The precedent has already been set. Hopefully at some point in the future we'll be in a stronger position, we won't have to pay such massive sums as we'll have better options. Right now I think the option is this, or get an interior player for less money.
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i agree there isnt a standard by which you measure prices. But there has been a noticeable jump in those prices no doubt fueled by the bigger deals of clubs in the PL and the christiano ronaldo transfer.

When i saw arsenal forking out 42 million for ozil, i thought this is mad. Then ourselves with fellaini. there seems to have been a big jump by about 15 million in prices over the course of a few months. There is sort of a bubble in play because while the revenues have not made the huge jump, the prices have. Now everyone wants to sell to a PL club because they know they can demand higher prices.

Im caught in two minds about vidal. Id maybe go at 40. but 50 is way too high.
 
Adebesi said:
I think if Valencia came in for Vidal with a lower figure Juve would say no thanks, it's not worth it, we'll keep him. Like when we sold Ronaldo. At 80m we had to sell. But that wasn't because it was Real. We wouldn't have sold him for less to Valencia. It's just only Real would pay that. Maybe only we or one or two other clubs have the clout to make Juve sell Vidal.
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northbynorthwest said:
exactly. Juve know we have finance and so the will push for a higher price. But the higher price is not what he is worth, but due to the fact that we are demanding him. because vidal is deemed a unique player in short supply according to juve they push the price up. So we have a unique player and we demand him, and both combine to push up his price.

what i would be saying to juve we have plan B should they choose not to accept our offer. hopefully that would drive down the price. its sets a dangerous precedent, buying a MF for 50 million who will only get maybe 7/8 goals a season in a tough league.
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Sellin one of your best players to a potential rival in Europe, always ups the price..

A big fee softens the blow for the fans loss - if the money is re-invested of course, or used to pay off debts.

Sadly, for us - the Ronnie money was never spent on a world-class player. We already had the funds for all the signings made when he left. We bought Valencia for something like £16m that summer Ronnie left & even gave him the number 7 shirt. That was his replacement & a surplus of £64m could have been spent on a marquee signing..
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Fellaini's valuation - by your assessment, has risen by £1m in the space of 15 minutes. It doesnt bare thinkin about how much you think he's worth at midnight :smirk:
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this did make me laugh. but this what i am saying. his price rose by about 15 million in about 3 months. madness
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Sellin one of your best players to a potential rival in Europe, always ups the price..

A big fee softens the blow for the fans loss - if the money is re-invested of course, or used to pay off debts.

Sadly, for us - the Ronnie money was never spent on a world-class player. We already had the funds for all the signings made when he left. We bought Valencia for something like £16m that summer Ronnie left & even gave him the number 7 shirt. That was his replacement & a surplus of £64m could have been spent on a marquee signing..
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that money was used to service debts i believe
 
northbynorthwest said:
i agree there isnt a standard by which you measure prices. But there has been a noticeable jump in those prices no doubt fueled by the bigger deals of clubs in the PL and the christiano ronaldo transfer.

When i saw arsenal forking out 42 million for ozil, i thought this is mad. Then ourselves with fellaini. there seems to have been a big jump by about 15 million in prices over the course of a few months. There is sort of a bubble in play because while the revenues have not made the huge jump, the prices have. Now everyone wants to sell to a PL club because they know they can demand higher prices.

Im caught in two minds about vidal. Id maybe go at 40. but 50 is way too high.
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I'd drop £60m on him quite happily. Maybe £10m of that in performance related add ons but I think he'd be worth every penny in terms of performance and star quality.
 
Pexbo said:
I'd drop £60m on him quite happily. Maybe £10m of that in performance related add ons but I think he'd be worth every penny in terms of performance and star quality.
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we said the same about veron and spurs thought lamela would be class. for a guy from another league, it is a big risk.
 
northbynorthwest said:
we said the same about veron and spurs thought lamela would be class. for a guy from another league, it is a big risk.
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Lamela is young. Given the right manager he'd be class.

And compare the styles of Veron and Vidal. They both are very different.
 
Pexbo said:
I'd drop £60m on him quite happily. Maybe £10m of that in performance related add ons but I think he'd be worth every penny in terms of performance and star quality.
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Agreed, that's just what you have to pay. It's not inflated, it's just the market rate for the best players in the world.

It isn't English clubs either - so I'm not sure what that point is - when PSG wanted the best players they had to pay it, so did Monoco and Zenit, Barcelona are spending another £70m on Suarez after spending similar on Neymar, Bayern spent around £40m on Martinez when he was barely capped for Spain.. Madrid constantly spend huge money to sign players.

It's just what you have to do if you want to sign them.
 
Definitely yes we are in a bubble. But then what do you do? You can't wish away a bubble just by identifying it. There is no sign of it deflating, or even inflating more slowly. All you can do is say, this is madness. And then either buy or not buy. SAF took the latter option, but I'm not sure that's the right move now.
 
northbynorthwest said:
we said the same about veron and spurs thought lamela would be class. for a guy from another league, it is a big risk.
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There's always a risk. Berbatov didn't exactly set the world alight here either, and he was PL proven.

I find it funny that some of our fans (and you amongst them) say that they're fine with £40m, but £50m is "way too high". We've been screaming for reinforcements in midfield for years, and people want to pass up signing the world's best midfielder because they think another £10m is "too much", as if they're the ones paying for it.

If he wants to come and Juve are willing to sell we should pay whatever it takes (within reason).
 
northbynorthwest said:
we said the same about veron and spurs thought lamela would be class. for a guy from another league, it is a big risk.
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Perhaps my memory of him in England has skewed how I remember Veron but I'd go as far as saying that Vidal is better than Veron at 27. (wasn't far off 27 when he left Italy)
Lamela is also very young, no way near the level of Veron or Vidal, and has plenty of time to make it at a better club.
 
Adebesi said:
Definitely yes we are in a bubble. But then what do you do? You can't wish away a bubble just by identifying it. There is no sign of it deflating, or even inflating more slowly. All you can do is say, this is madness. And then either buy or not buy. SAF took the latter option, but I'm not sure that's the right move now.
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history has shown that if you engage in the bubble you generally lose out. For vidal at 60 million you would be talking 20 goals and about 15 assists. I would speculate he would struggle to get that. he would struggle to match the expectation with delivery.

vidal in italy had 11 goals and 5 assists. one must remember that juve got knocked out of the CL this season in the group stages. thats a team with pirlo, vidal pogba and marchiso.
 
Jaysince91 said:
Perhaps my memory of him in England has skewed how I remember Veron but I'd go as far as saying that Vidal is better than Veron at 27. (wasn't far off 27 when he left Italy)
Lamela is also very young, no way near the level of Veron or Vidal, and has plenty of time to make it at a better club.
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Too right. Spurs don't have any history whatsoever of developing players lately. Nobody at all.
 
Eriksen said:
He's being so overhyped, he's going to arrive and some United fans are going to be expecting Messiesque play.
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that is indicative of the problem. The weight of expectation at that price will put all sorts of demands on him. A poster mentioned martinez for bayern. he cost 40 million and they play him in defense. Now bayern have the luxury of being dominant in that league. The PL is a different kettle of fish. you have maybe six teams who are fiercely competitive
 
northbynorthwest said:
history has shown that if you engage in the bubble you generally lose out. For vidal at 60 million you would be talking 20 goals and about 15 assists. I would speculate he would struggle to get that. he would struggle to match the expectation with delivery.

vidal in italy had 11 goals and 5 assists. one must remember that juve got knocked out of the CL this season in the group stages. thats a team with pirlo, vidal pogba and marchiso.
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They're pretty bloody impressive numbers for a centre midfielder who does so much work. 18 in 42 starts over the season is a fantastic return.
 
northbynorthwest said:
history has shown that if you engage in the bubble you generally lose out
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I'm not sure it does. You lose out if you participate at the moment it bursts. Bubbles can last a very long time, people engage in them all the time without a problem. Anyone in the UK who owns a house would be an example.

Do you think the price of players is going to fall some time soon? I used to think it would, at some point I guess it will. But how long do you wait? What will cause the reverse? Things show no sign of changing. Though of course that doesn't prove anything, often when they pop it's quite sudden.
 
Eriksen said:
He's being so overhyped, he's going to arrive and some United fans are going to be expecting Messiesque play.
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He is fantastic though. The way everyone was eulogising over Ramsey (fans and pundits alike) will be doubled for Vidal if he does join, because Vidal is basically a stronger version of him. I don't neccessarily want him, as I think Ander can have a similar effect just at a lower standard and would much prefer us to look at a holding midfielder to add balance like Gustavo, but I wouldn't be angry at all if we did get him.
 
northbynorthwest said:
history has shown that if you engage in the bubble you generally lose out. For vidal at 60 million you would be talking 20 goals and about 15 assists. I would speculate he would struggle to get that. he would struggle to match the expectation with delivery.

vidal in italy had 11 goals and 5 assists. one must remember that juve got knocked out of the CL this season in the group stages. thats a team with pirlo, vidal pogba and marchiso.
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Nonsensical logic. On that basis we could say we shouldn't have signed Herrera because he can't get in a side that couldn't qualify out of the WC group stages, or that the Costa Rica side has better players than Spain because they progressed further.

Goals is just a by product of what Vidal brings to a team, just assessing the player based on his performances and not what the stats say.
 
Steven Seagull said:
They're pretty bloody impressive numbers for a centre midfielder who does so much work. 18 in 42 starts over the season is a fantastic return.
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He's also their penalty taker, how many of those goals were penalties?


The likes of Cassano had more goals than that - albeit he's more advanced but he's a bit rubbish now. This is in a ridiculously dominant side as a penalty taker and the main man in his team.

You have to be careful with Serie A. Hamsik pushed out some absolutely incredible stats last season but I'd bet he would flop in the PL. Vidal no doubt is a top midfielder and would be at a totally different level to any of your current lot but he's being hyped out of the stratosphere.
 
Eriksen said:
He's being so overhyped, he's going to arrive and some United fans are going to be expecting Messiesque play.
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Deary me. You were doing this in another thread about Vidal and it was clear that you didn't know what you were talking about.

He's not being overhyped at all, if anything he's been underrated in England in the past due to Serie A's lack of prominence. He's the best and most complete midfielder in the world right now, only Modric really rivals him there. I think you're judging him on his games for Chile this World Cup when he was half fit.
 
DWelbz19 said:
He is fantastic though. The way everyone was eulogising over Ramsey (fans and pundits alike) will be doubled for Vidal if he does join, because Vidal is basically a stronger version of him. I don't neccessarily want him, as I think Ander can have a similar effect just at a lower standard and would much prefer us to look at a holding midfielder to add balance like Gustavo, but I wouldn't be angry at all if we did get him.
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i would be prepared to take a cheaper alternative as well. maybe a bit better than gustavo though. certainly i dont think 50 or 60 million is worth it for vidal
 
Eriksen said:
He's also their penalty taker, how many of those goals were penalties?


The likes of Cassano had more goals than that - albeit he's more advanced but he's a bit rubbish now. This is in a ridiculously dominant side as a penalty taker and the main man in his team.

You have to be careful with Serie A. Hamsik pushed out some absolutely incredible stats last season but I'd bet he would flop in the PL. Vidal no doubt is a top midfielder and would be at a totally different level to any of your current lot but he's being hyped out of the stratosphere.
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i would concur. maybe not as harshly as you. But one would have to be cautious with regards players from the italien league. it is no where near as competitive as the PL. AC milan are a shadow of what they once were.
 
DWelbz19 said:
He is fantastic though. The way everyone was eulogising over Ramsey (fans and pundits alike) will be doubled for Vidal if he does join, because Vidal is basically a stronger version of him. I don't neccessarily want him, as I think Ander can have a similar effect just at a lower standard and would much prefer us to look at a holding midfielder to add balance like Gustavo, but I wouldn't be angry at all if we did get him.
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When everyone was eulogising over Ramsey he was in the form of his life and performing better than Vidal in a more competitive league and a weaker side. He had a single less goal than Vidal last season and that's with the injury that stopped his season as well as well as not being his sides penalty taker. He had two more assists as well and had some of the highest tackling and interception stats in the league.

Great disservice to say it'd be doubled.
 
northbynorthwest said:
i would concur. maybe not as harshly as you. But one would have to be cautious with regards players from the italien league. it is no where near as competitive as the PL. AC milan are a shadow of what they once were.
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I must say that I think Vidal is a top, top midfielder and would walk in to any Premier League side. As you say though, the Italian League is far from what it once was, their performance in the champions league of late proves this, and that has to be taken in to account.
 
Eriksen said:
When everyone was eulogising over Ramsey he was in the form of his life and performing better than Vidal in a more competitive league and a weaker side. He had a single less goal than Vidal last season and that's with the injury that stopped his season as well as well as not being his sides penalty taker. He had two more assists as well and had some of the highest tackling and interception stats in the league.

Great disservice to say it'd be doubled.
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I didn't say the figures, I said the plaudits. There is more to football than goal scoring stats, especially for central midfielders.
 
ivaldo said:
Nonsensical logic. On that basis we could say we shouldn't have signed Herrera because he can't get in a side that couldn't qualify out of the WC group stages, or that the Costa Rica side has better players than Spain because they progressed further.

Goals is just a by product of what Vidal brings to a team, just assessing the player based on his performances and not what the stats say.
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Well then ashley young, nani and valencia do great work then. They dont score much or assist, but work well in the team according to you. this is man utd and if you are a MF you have to be scoring or assisting. Keane/scholes/giggs/beckham they all did that.

my point is that for the money being touted, vidal would struggle to deliver. if it was 30 or 35 million we would have less expectation of him. it is in part psychological as well.
 
Rakitic had 10 assists and 12 goals for Sevilla last season. Vidal had 5 assists and 11 goals.
 
northbynorthwest said:
i would be prepared to take a cheaper alternative as well. maybe a bit better than gustavo though. certainly i dont think 50 or 60 million is worth it for vidal
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If we are buying a CDM, I like Gustavo and prefer him to Carvalho.

When Vidal goes I think it will be for around 50m and I do hope we get him.
Usually Id worry about the huge outlay but we are long overdue for a marquee signing or two and I believe Woodie and I are on the same page on this matter :)
 
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