Arturo Vidal
- Thread starter The Don
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Vidal couldnt be more different than either of those two. No matter what role he playsFecking hell! Shaw and Herrera are nice additions, but not enough on their own to make United PL winners again! Still problems at RB, CB, central midfield and on the wing to address. LVG can't get around that kind of stuff by being canny with goalkeeper substitutions! Hilarious to suggest we are already better than Liverpool and Arsenal!
Laughable stuff![/QUOTE]
I find your comments very strange, we were a disaster last season granted but I cannot see us finishing below Both Arsenal & Liverpool. We have better players.
Thing with Vidal Herrera is both can play Box to Box.
But both of them are attacking Box to box players. Not defensive ones unless we tell Herrera to play deeper which won't utilize him to his best.
With Keane and Scholes at their prime we had one defensive box to box in Keane who stayed bit deeper and then Scholes who went further and also got goals.
Then we started to play with 2 6's both deep for a while when Scholes became a DLP.
But both of them are attacking Box to box players. Not defensive ones unless we tell Herrera to play deeper which won't utilize him to his best.
With Keane and Scholes at their prime we had one defensive box to box in Keane who stayed bit deeper and then Scholes who went further and also got goals.
Then we started to play with 2 6's both deep for a while when Scholes became a DLP.
You're trying to make a point that Giggs is better tactically than Moyes? He's not. Great player doesn't equate to a good manager and he certainly isn't ready yet. I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're seriously trying to say that the two are remotely comparable to Van Gaal. The're not. Van Gaal is easily one of the top 3 managers in the world. If there's a problem he'll figure it out and rectify it. He'll impose his own style of play very quickly (he already has to an extent by bringing in Herrera and looking for another energetic box to box cm). Basically, players are now being bought to fit into that style. Also, Herrera and Shaw have already added much more pace to the side and you're forgetting that we will undoubtedly add more signings. Our average defender age is probably like 25 now (only scewed by Evra), there aren't any more aging cbs in the squad, plus, I already identified cb as a position where investment is needed.
Basically, you're argument is very strange as Herrera is exactly the type of player you're talking about and we are clearly after another one, whether it be Vidal or Carvalho. You don't actually need pacy widemen with van Persie playing up front, which is pretty obvious as the Dutch side don't have any pacy wide men and before you say it, Robben plays as a second striker through the middle (though admittedly he does roam). However, we could assign Januzaj that job or Depay if we sign him (I'd be very surprised if we didn't). Both of them are very quick. Welbeck is also exceptionally quick. There is pace in the side, it just wasn't being utilised properly.
I think he means in principle. The fact that both are #8s who enjoy going forward at least as much as they will get gritty defensively, whilst providing the midfield with mobility, dynamism and technical poise. It also may result in the midfield being bypassed easier than most would assume unless, as he's stated, Vidal is forced to play a more restrictive role. I understand the gist but I don't think Anderson and Vidal are similar players.
I meant the way that both these midfield pairing are offense minded. There is obviously a gap in quality, but our structure would be reminisance of the duo that I compared.
Good that someone understood what I was saying
Vidal can play defensive (he can basically play any role in midfield). Herrera is well capable of playing further back also. I think the suggestion that they'd play similarly to Keane and Ince is relatively accurate, except that Herrera and Vidal are arguably better at distributing the ball. Both can tackle, if that's your worry.
While both are attack minded, both can also defend quite well too. I don't think it would be a problem as long as they took turns going forward and didn't leave a massive gap to be exploited on the counter.
Keane and Ince were both more defensive players than Vidal or Herrera right now.
Vidal's best seasons have come in a 3 man midfield as a 8 who can run a lot and attack in the box to get goals. He really isn't a creative passer as such.
Herrera's best seasons also have come as a 8 which is his preferred position box to box with a 6 behind him or as a hard working 10 who defends well too. He played 6 for Bielsa but that doesn't get the best out him.
They can both ofcourse play deeper, especially Herrera (Not sure when last Vidal played deeper anwyay.) but it won't get the best out of them.
This combo could work if they click but is not the ideal pair on paper and bit of square pegs in round holes especially in big games.
Unless we want to play high line football sort of Dortmund style in which case don't really need a screener as such necessarily.
They were and I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I agree. Yes both prefer to concentrate on the attacking side of the game more, but they are both able to defend too. I'm not suggesting that they both stay back all the time. I'm saying one stays back while the other attacks and then they switch and the other stays back and the other goes forward, or we could have one cb (probably Jones) push forward into a shielding role, which would allow both players to venture forward if a more attacking approach was required. Personally, I think it would work quite well (perhaps after an early period of uncertainty).
I have not seen much of Herrera. Maybe he can play in a restrictive role and become a more mobile version of Arteta. Vidal scored 18 goals for Juventus last season, so I can not see him becoming positionally aware of his defensive duty. He would be the main man going forward from our midfield if we do get him. Nevertheless, I liked the Anderson/Cleverley combination because it was similar to the attacking mentality that Liverpool did very well with last season. It can certainely work at United against some of the weaker teams, beit the cost of being more exposed in defense.
He can actually be positionally aware (plus he was the penalty taker). It's why he is probably one of the best all round CMs on the planet, don't let his goalscoring record fool you, he is just THAT good
I actually liked the Cleverley Anderson combination too. I'm not disputing that both are better going forward than defending, but both are also capable of getting the ball back. I'm sure Van Gaal will tell Vidal that he needs to defend at times if he does sign him. Herrera isn't really one to stay back as you waste a lot of his energy, but he can definitely tackle well and has an engine (which is perfect for Van Gaal's style of play). Anyway, I think I've said all I can on why I think it would work now. As you've said, Henderson and Gerrard aren't the best defensively, but Liverpool did quite well with them in midfield so we know it definitely can work.
Vidal thread very active this evening
What do we have people?
What do we have people?
Vidal is great defensively, he's got an incredible engine. That's why he's the best CM in the world in my view, he's about as complete as they come. Which is why we should we willing to pay whatever is needed to get him (within reason of course).
'Hope' seems to be the only thing as of now.
How much would United pay for him?
I think they'd value him at €50m. Nothing confirmed, but honestly I think that's the most logical. Works out at approx £40m (£39.7m).
Seen the figure of £30m + Nani thrown around a few times, that would seem to be pretty good business.
SKY Italia confirms: Juve have no intention of selling #Vidal, Man Utd asked about Vidal but Marotta responded "NO".
I think Vidal and Herrera in the middle would transform us from a team that often gets dominated by the shite in the league to a team that would dominate a lot of the top teams.
If there is any chance we can get him then we HAVE to try.
If there is any chance we can get him then we HAVE to try.
Then don't fecking sell them Evra or Nani.
Not an issue. Now we just get Van Gaal to ask and he's ours.
Thats a hugely skeptical statement from Sky Italia.
Weren't similar things said about Shaw?
No club wants to be seen as a selling club. Let alone selling one of the best center mids in the world. Wouldn't expect him to say anything else at this stage.
No club wants to be seen as a selling club. Let alone selling one of the best center mids in the world. Wouldn't expect him to say anything else at this stage.
Sky Italia generally pull their transfer news out of their arse so I'm not exactly convinced yet.
I'm not claiming that Giggs is tactically better than Moyes or that either of them are better than LVG, what I'm saying is it's impossible for any manager to impose "his" style on this team which has no pace/physicality without going into the transfer market and buying it because we don't have any. Even under the last 2 seasons with SAF the performances were very underwhelming but his ability to get the best out of those players kept us as the most consistent team in the league which was enough to win the title. We no longer have SAF and those large holes in the side which most of us had identified long ago have now been blown wide open now that he's gone.
Welbeck has pace but it's never going to be utilised unless he's playing up front, he can't cross or beat a man so he's a waste in the wide areas. Valencia has pace but when does he ever make runs beyond the last defender or beat full backs 1v1? He doesn't, he hangs out by the touchline get's the ball into feet and works from there, it's fairly easy to defend against and teams have worked it out. Adnan is the type we need but at the moment he's too inconsistent to be relied on. Herrera is the type we're looking for and Shaw add's plenty, I'm delighted with those two signings but at the moment everything beyond that is speculation. Vidal is my number 1 choice for a signing this summer but I don't agree it's clear we're in for him or anyone else like him, I wouldn't be surprised if LVG is happy to stick with Carrick this season and then move for Strootman in January/Summer when he's back from injury.
Our average defender age may be young but that's not a good thing when none of Smalling/Jones/Evans have been able to complete an entire season injury free, we've been forced into playing Carrick/Fletcher as CB in the past few seasons due to the amount of injuries in that position, another CB is essential more so than CM.
Robben does not play as a second striker through the middle, he's always in the wide areas but he will periodically shift from left to right. Here's a picture which shows the positions he's received the ball in his last 3 games:
I could load up a graph from every game he's played this tournament and they'll show the same thing. In no way does he play through the middle.
I'm not claiming that Giggs is tactically better than Moyes or that either of them are better than LVG, what I'm saying is it's impossible for any manager to impose "his" style on this team which has no pace/physicality without going into the transfer market and buying it because we don't have any. Even under the last 2 seasons with SAF the performances were very underwhelming but his ability to get the best out of those players kept us as the most consistent team in the league which was enough to win the title. We no longer have SAF and those large holes in the side which most of us had identified long ago have now been blown wide open now that he's gone.
Welbeck has pace but it's never going to be utilised unless he's playing up front, he can't cross or beat a man so he's a waste in the wide areas. Valencia has pace but when does he ever make runs beyond the last defender or beat full backs 1v1? He doesn't, he hangs out by the touchline get's the ball into feet and works from there, it's fairly easy to defend against and teams have worked it out. Adnan is the type we need but at the moment he's too inconsistent to be relied on. Herrera is the type we're looking for and Shaw add's plenty, I'm delighted with those two signings but at the moment everything beyond that is speculation. Vidal is my number 1 choice for a signing this summer but I don't agree it's clear we're in for him or anyone else like him, I wouldn't be surprised if LVG is happy to stick with Carrick this season and then move for Strootman in January/Summer when he's back from injury.
Our average defender age may be young but that's not a good thing when none of Smalling/Jones/Evans have been able to complete an entire season injury free, we've been forced into playing Carrick/Fletcher as CB in the past few seasons due to the amount of injuries in that position, another CB is essential more so than CM.
Robben does not play as a second striker through the middle, he's always in the wide areas but he will periodically shift from left to right. Here's a picture which shows the positions he's received the ball in his last 3 games:
I could load up a graph from every game he's played this tournament and they'll show the same thing. In no way does he play through the middle.
Well, I did say he roamed, but that's where he starts in the official formation, up beside van Persie. Carrick doesn't fit his formations though. I never see Van Gaal play a cm who stays immobile in the centre and slowly dictates the play. They always move around so unless Carrick is willing to adapt his game (which would surprise me at his age), I doubt we won't sign a new cm. Even if we don't get Vidal, I'd imagine we'll get Carvalho. And even if we don't get one of them (which I really can't see happening) we should be able to get De Jong who would still improve the team. We definitely won't leave that position without improvement. Yes our cbs need improvement (the 3rd time I've said this), but your original argument wasn't that they are injury prone, it was that they are aging, which I said they weren't. Yes injuries are a big concern for the team and if we don't buy some new cb/s, we will probably suffer next season, but again, I think the chances of that happening are basically zero. Even if we don't get Hummels, we'll get Vermaelen and others to improve squad depth. On Januzaj, sometimes you have to stick with youngsters even if they don't always play well in order for them to reach their potential. At the start of the season there were concerns that Sterling would suffer from burnout like the season before were he to play too consistently, but he went on to be one of Liverpool's most important players. However, even if we decide not to put that much of a reliance on Januzaj, we will probably have Depay as an alternative and there is a lot of talk of our interest in de Maria who could definitely play the role effectively and would add another world class player to the team. Welbeck can run past people imo even if he doesn't use close control to dance around them. You're correct that he's a poor crosser and would be best kept to running centrally or cutting in from the wing as opposed to taking the ball to the bye-line. Valencia will likely be kept as backup to Rafael. Really, a great deal of this comes down to the formation/s Van Gaal implements. If he uses the current Dutch formation, another 2 cbs will be necessary and a new cm will be necessary, but not much else. If he plays 4-3-3, he'll probably use Rooney on the left wing and Adnan/di Maria on the right. I'm sure Van Gaal knows where the squad needs to be strengthened and I have confidence in him because I know he's a top manager, which I could at no point say last year about Moyes. Even our first two signings have strengthened us massively imo, particularly Herrera.
Most of those signings are speculation whereas Liverpool have made official bids and are in the process of completing a few deals. Yes if we get in Vidal/Carvalho and Di Maria we'll be in much better shape but as we stand right now Liverpool are in a better position.
Also De Jong is in no way better than Carrick regardless of what formation or system you use, his added mobility is extremely limited if there is any which I doubt and it doesn't negate from him being very inferior to Carrick in most other aspects of DM.
that would be a good deal. but 40 million for vidal. no way
Yes everyone, Vidal is for sale. Make us an offer. Not too high mind, we've just told everyone he's on his way...
Because that's how these things work isn't it?
Because that's how these things work isn't it?
Does it really matter?
United should have learned their lesson by now, trying to get players players on the cheap and ending up losing them because we refused to pay an extra £3 million or so.
Put it this way, if Bale/Suarez is worth £85 million, Vidal's worth upto £50 million, certainly to us anyway who need that quality in midfield.
Seems like the reports from Italy are gathering momentum. That could either mean that they really don't want to sell Vidal or that they want to appear reluctant to appease their fans.
There seems to be this near obsession with defensive midfielders, it seems if a player shows any offensive ability he couldn't possibly be considered a good defensive midfielder. Herrera and Vidals defensive ability seems to be severely underrated here, yes they aren't as good as a top defensive midfielder like Busquets but they aren't far off and having another play next to them who is equally efficent defensively balances it out nicely. Having two, interchangable midfielders is the future to me, who do you pick up? Who do you sit on to exploit defensive weaknesses? I'd argue there's far more balance with two all rounders than having an offensive and defensive midfielder.
It's not as rigid as saying who the better player is. De Jong is a great tackler who is already used to Van Gaal's side - of course he'd suit the formation far more than Carrick. If Van Gaal only cared about quality, we would have signed Kroos.
You were the one who started talking about forming our own style and now you're demonstrating an inability to understand that a style which relies on pressing and energy would not suit Carrick and that De Jong would be the far more logical choice for such a formation.
those prices are seriously inflated. we have already spent 60 million + the 37 for mata. Vidal is not worth 50 million. Pogba isnt worth that much. what happens is clubs inflate their prices when we come along. Chelsea got costa for 32 million. which would be around reasonable.
neil lennon was saying that there isnt a player bar messi that is worth 60 million. What happens is given the success of the PL and its revenues, selling clubs start asking for more money. But the prices are inflationary. Scholes was right in that for such an amount of money, you would be expecting 30 goals a season. vidal wont do that
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