I'm not following the point you're trying to make here at all.Vidal is not the answer, unless we drop Herrera. If we play both Vidal and Herrera, I guarentee that we will see much more goals conceded from positional mistake like the one below.
Credit to a newbie.
Arturo Vidal
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Vidal has played far forward in the midfield for Juve (similar to Lampard's role forever at Chelsea, except often in a 3-5-2), so people have forgotten he has even played CB in the past and is perfectly capable of playing defensive midfield.
Many footballers look awkward in any position but their best one, but Vidal ain't one of them.
I think Vidal will have a different role for us. He is capable of playing defensively and that is what he will do if we get him. We have Mata and Herrera who push up and he will stay behind to sure up the defense.
Vidal is a number 8 and so is Herrera. They are not as positionally aware as a number 6, when it comes to organizing and closing open spaces in the midfield. That area that Fletcher was supposed to be stationed in, neither Herrera or Vidal would have been their because they are more attack oriented players than defensive ones.
Seems like a huge waste for a player who scores a lot of goal and is more influential in the attacking third of the pitch.
Agreed. I don't think buy Vidal will solve all of our problems. I'm sure we would have bought him by now if Van Gaal rated him as highly as the CAF's FM brigade do.
Never played the game in my life, but rate Vidal very highly.I hate sweeping generalisations.
I'm sure some people have rarely seen Vidal play when I read this thread, he'd be ideal for us, adding defensive and attacking quality to CM and most importantly some actual leadership in there.
Quick thinking, high tempo and an incredible workrate. Something we lacked today.
I think we rushed with the Herrera deal. If Vidal was/is available, I would rather have him as our number 8 than Herrera. But the suggestion of two being played together sounds unbalanced and too risky to play in the bpl.
I hate sweeping generalisations.
I rate him highly as well and would feel a rush of instant gratification if we bought him. But I'm not sure if he would be a solution to what we are missing, which at this point is an ethos and sense of squad solidarity that can only come from within. I think Van Gaal realizes this and is one of the reasons he hasn't gone on impulsive spending spree.
We'd concede fewer with Vidal and Herrera than we will with Herrera and Fletcher, guarentee it.
vidals defending in midfield is of the highest calibre.
I think a Vidal Herrera partnership would work very well. However you may be on to something as when LVG said earlier "with other players it is always a question of if we can play like a team", it did cross my mind that he may be referring to how players like Vidal and di Maria would be used best and in what system.
Vidal and Herrera would be just fine defensively because they are both full of energy. They both have great tackling stats because they track back so well. I don't think there is necessarily a need for one CM to be assigned the defensive role of the two. It's an obsession in modern football to have a defensive/holding mid, but I don't think it is a necessity. It's not the only way to play.
Exactly, he has a very strong all round game, he is a bit of a throwback in that way.
All of that isn't going to matter if we lack the quality, we need to get that ethos and solidarity with the added quality, not instead of it.
Indeed, I wanted him when we let Juve sign him for just over 10 million euros from Leverkusen..
Good grief Raoul, it has been the case for a very long time that our biggest problem is that we don't have a decent Vidal type player. We have endured that "hole" for a very long time.
It is the case now though, that we have done ourselves no favours by getting rid of our defence before having achievable replacements lined up. Sort this out, then we can talk about building a cohesive unit. You cannot build anything without the right materials.
Vidal is absolutely world class and those who are saying he wouldn't fit in our midfield have clearly never seen him play. He's on an entirely other level with his incredible work-rate and tempo with the ball going forward. Him alone would immediately solve a lot of issues in the center of the midfield.
It has already been explained in this thread how Vidal defending from midfield would be much different without a protective shield behind him. Like how Ramsey defends via his pressing of opposition, Vidal is the same. His all round ability will be limited if he plays the number 6 role or plays without an anchor.
Clearly if the club agreed, he would be a United player this minute. As fans we tend to look at solutions in terms of "pieces in a puzzle" - individual units that if added, can solve our problems. I think Managers like Fergie and Van Gaal see it as a matter of "the team", where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Its quite evident from his interviews that this is Van Gaal's philosophy, which would explain why he hasn't gone on an immediate shopping spree, although he may yet do so before the window closes.
if anything, Vidal will make Herrera a way way better Player. (and the rest of the squad as well...)
funny noobs
funny noobs
I think his signing will give us a similar lift to how RvP gave us. I think we need players like him in our squad not just for his quality but also to bring back that steel which we miss.
Yup, even before we were linked to him I think the majority of people who saw him play for Juve, named him world class. He is in the top 5 best and most complete midfielders out there. There is a reason why Juve are so sceptical to let him go. His defensive work is seriously underrated on here, he would suit Herrera just fine. For those who think Blind or De Jong would be more successful are bloody deluded. Fair enough Strootman might fit that specific role slightly better but Vidal is still superior to Strootman in quality. I also think Strootman is not available at the moment.
I don't think it is as simple as that at all, clearly he is very expensive and Juve are intending to play hardball over him, unless we were willing to do a Madrid or Barca and just pay, then it was always going to be a tough negotiation. The bottom line is that our team has two midfield players in it and we'd be a lot better with Vidal as one of them than Fletcher, Fellaini or Cleverely, ethos, systems or whatever buzzwords are used have no bearing on that fact. Plus Fergie was the opposite, he even said if he could get a top player he would do so and then work out how to fit him in, hence why he bought RvP despite Welbeck developing well as Rooney's partner.
What you're missing is that vidal can do both an pigeon holing him into a role is absurd, he'd protect our defence better than any one in the league protects theirs(apart from maybe jedinak whos a defensive genius)
I'm a firm believer that if we wanted him and he wanted to join us, we would buy him. If Van Gaal was adamant that he wanted him, he would be a United player right now - irrespective of price (excepting of course Ronaldo/Bale type money).
Agreed. And Vidal would complement Herrera very well. Just look how much work Herrera was having to do with Fletcher on the field with him today. With Vidal, Herrera would have a high-intensity and physically competent midfield partner where he'd also have more freedom to bomb forward and contribute offensively. Words cannot describe how perfect Vidal would be for us.
Agreed but I don't think Vidal needs to be restricted to a pure #6 role if we stick with a 3-5-2 and he has three centre halves behind him. It's still a touch unbalanced but I don't think the problem would be as large as it would be in a normal four man defence.
There are things we can do to minimise the impact as well, for example if the defence pushed up 10 yards then that area where a #6 typically sits gets restricted and there isn't the same requirement for one.
I would have agreed with you until LvG's pre-match comment about incoming transfers and not mentioning targets because their price inflates. I reckon Ed or perhaps both of them, are playing a silly game, trying to save some £'s.
Meanwhile, we have lost our first of many 3 points, unless we do something about it. This nonsense about assessing the squad doesn't cut it.
I understand he can do both, but does Wenger plays both Ramsey and Wilshere in a midfield duo because Ramsey can do both? Does Juventus plays Vidal and Pogba in midfield because Vidal can do both? The pairing is unbalanced, unless one adopts the number 6 responsibility to anchor the back, while also contribution to the circulating of our passing movement. Maybe Herrera can adapt that role, but I have not seen any instance that he will be more productive in that role.
He's an Absolute all rounder, people who are saying he would be marginalised playing in x position or y just aren't getting the point. we would almost instantly look a different team with somebody of his calibre and tool set in CM.
Yea, the bolded part was what I suggested. The situation will be much worse in a back four. I only brought this back up after seeing Fletcher positional mistake today. I am sure their will be more unless we push a center back up or Herera or Vidal become more positional aware of their duty as a number 6, not just a number 8. Unless we plan to win 5 -4, 3-4 everytime
Which is where I think Carrick is perfect, when in possession he can just step up and play that shielding role and allow the midfield to push up that little more.
if we want vidal to play diffrently to what he has been why buy him? he is one of the best players in the world for his maraudering forward ability not as defensive midfielder, so buy him and not using him to his full potential is daft.
we need a defensive midfeilder os buy a defensive midfielder not a player who could do a job as defensive midfielder.
People need to stop thinking Carrick is any solution at all. Daley Blind is far more tenacious defensively than Carrick and Blind's strengths aren't even in his physicality. What does that tell you about Carrick? As a screen for the backline, Carrick is not the answer to our problems. I am tired of seeing us get bullied by teams because of our soft midfield.
Well you're entitled to your opinion, I think Carrick with players who will actually do their fair share of the midfield work is a lot better than last season showed. In terms of how he puts himself about Carrick excels in his positioning and again as effectively a spare man there's no reason he can't fit in there. I'd be happy to see back 5 of rafael, jones/smalling Carrick Evans Shaw with Herrera and Vidal ahead. Think that can certainly do what we need it to do in the league. Still think we'd want an extra defender and another winger/wingback but I think that 7 is fine in the league if they can stay fit.
Carrick is always a passenger these days. We need to stop accommodating the passengers. In that midfield, Vidal and Herrera would do all the work, and Carrick's passenger ways would be exposed vs the big clubs (like always).
Its also worth pointing out that Vidal is not the ready made solution to our problems. We need him plus a load of other players. We are so far behind where we should be is ridiculous.
I don't think anyone has said he's not an all rounder, but what you want to do with Vidal is unleash him to affect the game high up the pitch both in possession and also without the ball in terms of pressing high up the pitch. He's one of the best ball winners in the world doing the latter.
To get the best out of Vidal offensively and defensively he needs to play with freedom. This means that a #6 or holding role does not suit him - he could do it, but it's a waste of his full ability.
So what is being said is that Vidal and Herrera lacks a natural holder and some people think that will leave us exposed on the break. They see the potential for a big hole in front of our defence where the opposition midfielders and AM's can break into. These are fair concerns and it is pretty much exactly what happened today.
Aye, could definitely see it being tried out at some point mate. I guess the result would be some sort of 3-5-2/diamond hybrid depending on how Carrick plays the role.
Jones could presumably play that position as well because he's stepped into midfield before. I imagine playing that way requires a lot of tactical intelligence in terms of deciding when to step up and when to stay in the back three. I also imagine it requires great understanding between the rest of the centre halves, because if Carrick/Jones leave the defensive line and step out then the other two would need to cover that space.
I'd imagine we are after another CB who can step up aka Benatia.
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