Arteta Vs EtH

giorno said:
Anybody who says they wouldn't swap seasons with arsenal is lying, be real.

2 mickey mouse trophies, a complete mess of a club and dreams of escaping the banter era vs 2 title challenges and going into next season thinking of actually winning either the PL or CL?

They wrote their point in a stupid way, but come on. Yes of course anybody would prefer trophies over no trophies. But that's not happening in a vacuum
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FA Cup isn't a mickey mouse trophy.
 
giorno said:
Anybody who says they wouldn't swap seasons with arsenal is lying, be real.

2 mickey mouse trophies, a complete mess of a club and dreams of escaping the banter era vs 2 title challenges and going into next season thinking of actually winning either the PL or CL?

They wrote their point in a stupid way, but come on. Yes of course anybody would prefer trophies over no trophies. But that's not happening in a vacuum
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I agree with you. All clubs should stop playing and go to holiday when they are out of title/cl race and their fans should be forced to watch others clubs competing for non mickey trophies.
 
giorno said:
Anybody who says they wouldn't swap seasons with arsenal is lying, be real.

2 mickey mouse trophies, a complete mess of a club and dreams of escaping the banter era vs 2 title challenges and going into next season thinking of actually winning either the PL or CL?

They wrote their point in a stupid way, but come on. Yes of course anybody would prefer trophies over no trophies. But that's not happening in a vacuum
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Agree with the general sentiment but the FA cup is definitely not a Mickey Mouse trophy the same way the equivalents might be in Europe.
 
Sky1981 said:
Most of us would swap 2 FA for 2 runners up in the league.
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I would do it if it’s guaranteed winning the league title next season but there is no such thing being runner up will guarantee you winning the league title next following season, therefore, it’s FA Cup all day, it’s a trophy. It’s more joyful to win trophies and something you will remember when beating two of your rivals City and Liverpool to win FA Cup.
 
giorno said:
Anybody who says they wouldn't swap seasons with arsenal is lying, be real.

2 mickey mouse trophies, a complete mess of a club and dreams of escaping the banter era vs 2 title challenges and going into next season thinking of actually winning either the PL or CL?

They wrote their point in a stupid way, but come on. Yes of course anybody would prefer trophies over no trophies. But that's not happening in a vacuum
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As long as Pep is around, league title ain't happening. Even Klopp realized that in the second half of his tenure and suddenly the mickey mouse trophies became important to him.
 
Loser vs. Winner.

Apologies, Arsenal fans, you’ve turned a corner and had a good season, but facts are facts.
 
giorno said:
Anybody who says they wouldn't swap seasons with arsenal is lying, be real.

2 mickey mouse trophies, a complete mess of a club and dreams of escaping the banter era vs 2 title challenges and going into next season thinking of actually winning either the PL or CL?

They wrote their point in a stupid way, but come on. Yes of course anybody would prefer trophies over no trophies. But that's not happening in a vacuum
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YouTube comment section talk. Doesn’t quite fit in at redcafe.

The FA cup is an important trophy. For clubs which don’t win the league every few years, it’s a big deal.

Your general point is fine and many would agree but ironically you wrote it in a stupid way.
 
Arteta's first two seasons were definitely worse results wise, it was Abysmal looking at them and their league reford vouches for that, what was positive about it is that he genuinely started gutting out some of the more cumbersome players who didn't fit his vision and slowly built up their spine with some youthful additions.

There are parallels with ten hag of course in that regard but overall (at least for now) his acquisitions leave been much more prudent compared to Eric.
 
The idea for this thread actually came to me like 2 weeks back or so. I had come to the realisation that Arsenal have not had any cup runs in these last two seasons when they've done so well in the league.
 
Yorkeontop said:
The idea for this thread actually came to me like 2 weeks back or so. I had come to the realisation that Arsenal have not had any cup runs in these last two seasons when they've done so well in the league.
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They've been absolutely dire in the domestic cups recently.
 
Get In Scholesy said:
Sorry to say, but comparing Arteta to Ten Hag is a slight on Ten Hag. EtH is the better manager by some distance. Arteta has the benefit of stability as Arsenal’s football operations seem to be much better than hours, but Ten Hag has been a lot more successful in his career than Arteta has. Would love to see each club’s success if the roles were reversed and Ten Hag was at the club with a more structured football approach.
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There was nothing stable about Arsenal's football operations when Arteta joined. Arteta along with Edu revamped everything. There is no 'amazing' structure above Arteta. Our reversal of fortunes and upward trajectory are simply a result of Arteta's changing the dressing room culture, and recruitment. Ozil - gone. Aubamayang - gone. Ghendouzi - gone. Basically anyone with even a hint of an attitude was binned and we signed players who were willing to buy into Arteta's methods fully - White, Odegaard, Tomiyasu, Jesus, Zinchenko, Rice, Timber, Trossard. Basically every signing since 21-22 has fallen into line with no hint of an attitude.

ETH cannot sit as a passive party and 'wait' for Sir Jim to put something in place for things to come together. He has to be involved, and if he isnt, then thats a problem. I always wondered if the signing of Casemiro was driven by ETH, or did ETH go along because Casemiro was available and attainable at the time? Arteta would never have dropped so much money on a player because of convenience. Arteta would ask questions like, will this 70m come out of the next budget, how hard will it be to shift Casemiro if he starts to waver in performance, which is a real possibility for a player over 30 on a 4 year contract. Perhaps will wait for the next window. Which is what we did when we pulled out of trying to sign Caicedo because the numbers wernt making sense, this allowed us to get Rice in the summer.

I also wouldnt say comparing Arteta to Ten Hag is a slight on Ten Hag. You do realise Arteta just finished 29 points ahead of Ten Hag? With a goal difference of 62 compared to -1?
 
eire-red said:
There is?
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Yeah there is.

For example, why does this thread exist after a United win?

Look at any online conversation or trend post a major team achievement. Somehow it has to be brought back to Arsenal.

Laughing at Arsenal for not winning the league is fair enough, that’s part of it all. But almost everything?
 
ArtetaInInIn said:
There was nothing stable about Arsenal's football operations when Arteta joined. Arteta along with Edu revamped everything. There is no 'amazing' structure above Arteta. Our reversal of fortunes and upward trajectory are simply a result of Arteta's changing the dressing room culture, and recruitment. Ozil - gone. Aubamayang - gone. Ghendouzi - gone. Basically anyone with even a hint of an attitude was binned and we signed players who were willing to buy into Arteta's methods fully - White, Odegaard, Tomiyasu, Jesus, Zinchenko, Rice, Timber, Trossard. Basically every signing since 21-22 has fallen into line with no hint of an attitude.

ETH cannot sit as a passive party and 'wait' for Sir Jim to put something in place for things to come together. He has to be involved, and if he isnt, then thats a problem. I always wondered if the signing of Casemiro was driven by ETH, or did ETH go along because Casemiro was available and attainable at the time? Arteta would never have dropped so much money on a player because of convenience. Arteta would ask questions like, will this 70m come out of the next budget, how hard will it be to shift Casemiro if he starts to waver in performance, which is a real possibility for a player over 30 on a 4 year contract. Perhaps will wait for the next window. Which is what we did when we pulled out of trying to sign Caicedo because the numbers wernt making sense, this allowed us to get Rice in the summer.

I also wouldnt say comparing Arteta to Ten Hag is a slight on Ten Hag. You do realise Arteta just finished 29 points ahead of Ten Hag? With a goal difference of 62 compared to -1?
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How many transfer windows did it take to have the cultural reset?
 
Yorkeontop said:
They are the closest thing to City in the league recently, that's why we have the narrative.

I'm fascinated by their achievements outside of the league and wonder what people make of it?

Basically, I'm gauging what 2nd place is worth if that's all you do?
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It’s banter for the sake of banter, I accept that.

Whether it’s all you do is a different discussion. I think it would be difficult to say that Arsenal not winning anything is a possibility, looking at the trajectory of the team. We saw the same criticism of Ferguson prior to the three peat of the late 2000s, you could see the strength and youth of that team. And that they were getting stronger.

The key stumbling block is City, we’ve seen how Liverpool struggled to overhaul them. That is probably the main issue stopping Arsenal winning the league, and possibly the CL. For at least the next season.

But to answer your question…. I think Arsenal do more than 2nd in the league and quarters of the champions league.
 
Zagoon said:
It’s banter for the sake of banter, I accept that.

Whether it’s all you do is a different discussion. I think it would be difficult to say that Arsenal not winning anything is a possibility, looking at the trajectory of the team. We saw the same criticism of Ferguson prior to the three peat of the late 2000s, you could see the strength and youth of that team. And that they were getting stronger.

The key stumbling block is City, we’ve seen how Liverpool struggled to overhaul them. That is probably the main issue stopping Arsenal winning the league, and possibly the CL. For at least the next season.

But to answer your question…. I think Arsenal do more than 2nd in the league and quarters of the champions league.
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We just beat the team you are saying are in your way with two teenagers scoring our goals
 
Drainy said:
We just beat the team you are saying are in your way with two teenagers scoring our goals
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Beating City in a once off game is not that difficult mate. We did that as well this season.

I’m talking about doing it over a 38 game season. That is really really difficult, as Arsenal are seeing now. To win the league we will need at least 95 points next year, and even that may not be enough.
 
Zagoon said:
Beating City in a once off game is not that difficult mate. We did that as well this season.

I’m talking about doing it over a 38 game season. That is really really difficult, as Arsenal are seeing now. To win the league we will need at least 95 points next year, and even that may not be enough.
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True. You need sustainable results and an ability to win matches on a constant basis. You do this by scoring alot of goals, and conceded a few.

One thing that really alarms me with ETH, is the goal differential. A negative goal difference is a very hard sell. If you want to compete for the league, it needs to be at least 50+
 
On the ETH vs Arteta argument, I do see a valid case for comparison to be made.

It was about this time in Arteta’a tenure (2 years in) that Arsenal started to show clear performances and playing style/structure that suggested a team on the rise. For me it was the game where we lost to City at the Emirates at the very end, on 1 January 2022.

This is why I would back another season of Ten Hag at United if I were a decision maker. But not blindly so, rather with concrete planning and execution in place. Now is the time to get it right, and reverse the poor season performance drastically.

Keep your eye on Xabi, Nagelsman, McKenna, Kompany, just in case.
 
Zagoon said:
Beating City in a once off game is not that difficult mate. We did that as well this season.

I’m talking about doing it over a 38 game season. That is really really difficult, as Arsenal are seeing now. To win the league we will need at least 95 points next year, and even that may not be enough.
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It will

If Arsenal hit 95 points next season they're winning the league

I'm sure that is the conversation Arteta is having with Edu and the team. You've done it across half a season, time to stretch it across 38 games
 
Was quite a measured united fan on 606 who said, Arteta has had the better season, but Ten Hag has had the more successful season. I guess it now comes down to what Arteta can do with this better season next year as to whether you can look back at it as a success for Arteta or not.
 
Well to protect certain narratives when it comes to past managers, you kinda have to claim that 2nd > trophy.
 
adexkola said:
It will

If Arsenal hit 95 points next season they're winning the league

I'm sure that is the conversation Arteta is having with Edu and the team. You've done it across half a season, time to stretch it across 38 games
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From your lips to God’s ears.

The only way is to not let City breathe and let their first half season tinkering cost them, as Liverpool did in 19/20. You need to go on a 20 game unbeaten run, with few draws to completely take them out of the equation.

Arsenal were on 100 point pace in 2024, but ultimately the 80 point pace in 2023 cost them. Mad that it did, but that’s the levels Pep has brought to the competition.

Trophies are better for history and prestige though, so won’t argue with United fans who claim they had the better season and that Erik is better than Mikel.
 
Sky1981 said:
Most of us would swap 2 FA for 2 runners up in the league.
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I would swap two genuine title challenges for two FA Cups, if it started from matchweek 1 and it wasn't pre-determined that we finish second...but why would I swap two pre-determined runner-up finishes for two FA Cups?

Makes no sense, unless the first part of my sentence is what you mean.
 
It's quite incredible how some are willing to forget an entire season of abysmal performances and start seriously comparing United vs Arsenal, just because we finally turned up for one game this season and managed to beat City.

Arteta/Arsenal are so far ahead of Ten Hag/United. Unless you think United should become some midtable club that focuses on domestic trophies from now on
 
The FA cup is awesome. It's not like the league cup for me that only came into prominence to satisfy bloated squads.

Glad you guys won it and even better job knocking the cheaters off their perch. But the immediate comparisons to us are a bit strange.
 
Zagoon said:
Yeah there is.

For example, why does this thread exist after a United win?

Look at any online conversation or trend post a major team achievement. Somehow it has to be brought back to Arsenal.

Laughing at Arsenal for not winning the league is fair enough, that’s part of it all. But almost everything?
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I'll keep my eye out for mention of Arteta and / or Arsenal next Saturday. I bet Real and Dortmund can't wait to rub it in.

Honestly though, 90% of United fans haven't thought about Arsenal since the final day. This thread has 3 pages, and a good portion of the replies are probably yours.

Take the banter for what it is, people have been laughing at United all season and it's amusing to poke a little fun after winning something. Also, the OP poses a genuine proposition, ie would people prefer trophies or to see more progress on the pitch. Arsenal are an interesting one to think about because as good as you've been in the league, bar your FA Cup win during Covid, you've been abysmal in the cups.
 
Zagoon said:
Look at any online conversation or trend post a major team achievement. Somehow it has to be brought back to Arsenal.
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That’s just your confirmation bias. You mostly consume Arsenal news and content so you’ll notice any mention of Arsenal and not notice people talking about other teams. I argue the same with Chelsea fans all the time, who believe the same thing you believe but about Chelsea.
 
alexthelion said:
Why would you not want trophies?
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Trophies are good. It's etched into the history book. Not denying that.

But to claim we had the better season than Arsenal when our deadwood list are longer than 10 players and having a negative goal difference.

If it's 4th then yes I'd say we had a better season since 2nd is nothing. But at this rate i prefer to have an exciting team and a long term manager that can put joy in watching United again like in post SAF.
 
When did the Caf get so many Arsenal supporting posters? Thats way more weird than some banter thread,
 
Trigg said:
When did the Caf get so many Arsenal supporting posters? Thats way more weird than some banter thread,
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When they became half decent again. They should be happy that we're talking about Arteta as if he's on the same level as Ten Hag.
 
thisisnottaken1 said:
Basically my position as well. I’d much rather win a trophy, but Arsenal’s direction is a lot more promising than ours.
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It will be Arteta's 6th season though, he finished 8th in his first two seasons and didn't qualify for the UCL until his 4th. I personally would like for EtH to stay, but I'm not objective, as I just like the guy for some reason. I totally understand the people who think he hasn't shown enough in his two full seasons here and want him sacked. It's probably true and he probably should "objectively" be sacked, and the apparent regression this year is certainly worrying. Anyway, the win yesterday was fantastic and the second goal was just so fecking great.
 
ArtetaInInIn said:
There was nothing stable about Arsenal's football operations when Arteta joined. Arteta along with Edu revamped everything. There is no 'amazing' structure above Arteta. Our reversal of fortunes and upward trajectory are simply a result of Arteta's changing the dressing room culture, and recruitment. Ozil - gone. Aubamayang - gone. Ghendouzi - gone. Basically anyone with even a hint of an attitude was binned and we signed players who were willing to buy into Arteta's methods fully - White, Odegaard, Tomiyasu, Jesus, Zinchenko, Rice, Timber, Trossard. Basically every signing since 21-22 has fallen into line with no hint of an attitude.

ETH cannot sit as a passive party and 'wait' for Sir Jim to put something in place for things to come together. He has to be involved, and if he isnt, then thats a problem. I always wondered if the signing of Casemiro was driven by ETH, or did ETH go along because Casemiro was available and attainable at the time? Arteta would never have dropped so much money on a player because of convenience. Arteta would ask questions like, will this 70m come out of the next budget, how hard will it be to shift Casemiro if he starts to waver in performance, which is a real possibility for a player over 30 on a 4 year contract. Perhaps will wait for the next window. Which is what we did when we pulled out of trying to sign Caicedo because the numbers wernt making sense, this allowed us to get Rice in the summer.

I also wouldnt say comparing Arteta to Ten Hag is a slight on Ten Hag. You do realise Arteta just finished 29 points ahead of Ten Hag? With a goal difference of 62 compared to -1?
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A whole lot of nothing said in this post mate. Casemiro arrived the same time Ten Hag did, so we really don’t know if he was requested by Ten Hag - so it’s irrelevant to the point. If anything, it goes to show just how lacking the football structure is/was at the club.

The entire bold part is speculation, were you there in the room and heard what Artera was saying or doing? Seems like you made up a line of reasoning to say that Arteta wanted Rice more than he wanted Caicedo - which is probably a very common consensus as many people would choose Rice over Caicedo.

And yes, I do realize Arsenal finished many points ahead of United. I have also seen a fully fit Arsenal side lose to a undermanned United team, along with barely scraping wins over us under these 2 managers (small sample size - I admit).

I have also seen Ten Hag get more trophies in 2 years at United than Arteta in 5 with Arsenal.

I get you’re a fan of the club, but quite frankly I just don’t see it with Arteta.
 
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