Arteta Vs EtH

Except this is totally misleading

Arteta:
Had control of 20 matches in 19/20 with points per game of 1.65, finishing 8th
8th again next season, first full season with probably the worst Arsenal squad in our history
5th the season after with 69 points and 1.86 ppm
2nd the season after with 84 points and 2.21ppm
2nd again with 89 points and 2.34 ppm

500 million spent but clear upwards trejectory in terms of playing style, players bought by him making his own team, bench quality and position and points. The last 2 seasons only being stopped by 115 charges and the biggest footballing disgrace in history.

ETH:
Season 1 finished 3rd ppm 1.97. Season 2 finished 8th 1.58ppm.
500 million spent in less WAY less time than Arteta, breaking all United records for poor performance and the team's league performance an utter disaster. All the players bought by him for the life of me I can't actually think anyone is a stand out? Your best players are the ones from your academy. To add Arteta was a rookie when he got the job, so its natural he'd take time to bed in. ETH was not a rookie.

If both of them left today it'd be obvious who'd be more in demand. And its not ETH.

What is criminal is how awful the backroom for United have been. No oversight in the money spent, no accountability at all. While its easy to blame the manager you have to ask what the feck is the ownership been doing? United have the name, the history, the prestige and money....why has been there been no accountability at the vast amount of money wasted? How the feck has the Glazer staff (before Ineos) kept their job for years and years?
The way you represent ETH's seasons is also misleading :)
 
When we look back at Arteta's time, at the two year mark, (this would be very early 2022), many Arsenal fans were starting to call for his head, perhaps not quite as much as with EtH because we were prepared perhaps a bit more for the long term. It is only in the second half of the 2021-2022 that I personally started to see more promising signs. We developed a style of play that was recognizable. So, it certainly wasn't an immediate impact. Some Arsenal fans have still not warmed up to Arteta. I would suggest it is because of how they had been accustomed to expect an Arsenal manager to run the place as Wenger did They will point to Arteta'lack of trust in the development of young players etc...I wouldn't say there has been complete buy in into Arteta's methods. I think it's a bit naive what those supporters want sometimes but that's their viewpoint.

I said at the end of last season that third place was obviously a good result for EtH, but he had not developed a football philosophy or style of play. It looked more all like grinding out results from individual games. The league standard went up a bit this last season, so this deficiency was more glaring. I would be concerned at this point that he doesn't have that ability to set up a system that can dominate in 75% of Man Utd games.
 
I think ultimately both managers still have a lot to prove, for different reasons.
 
When we look back at Arteta's time, at the two year mark, (this would be very early 2022), many Arsenal fans were starting to call for his head, perhaps not quite as much as with EtH because we were prepared perhaps a bit more for the long term. It is only in the second half of the 2021-2022 that I personally started to see more promising signs. We developed a style of play that was recognizable. So, it certainly wasn't an immediate impact. Some Arsenal fans have still not warmed up to Arteta. I would suggest it is because of how they had been accustomed to expect an Arsenal manager to run the place as Wenger did They will point to Arteta'lack of trust in the development of young players etc...I wouldn't say there has been complete buy in into Arteta's methods. I think it's a bit naive what those supporters want sometimes but that's their viewpoint.

I said at the end of last season that third place was obviously a good result for EtH, but he had not developed a football philosophy or style of play. It looked more all like grinding out results from individual games. The league standard went up a bit this last season, so this deficiency was more glaring. I would be concerned at this point that he doesn't have that ability to set up a system that can dominate in 75% of Man Utd games.
Both bolded parts are untrue. He absolutely had a style of play, and the league wasn't particularly strong - he just had to deal with a ridiculously ridiculous season of injuries that no manager could have coped with, doubled with a patchwork squad that didn't fit his style of play, leading to constant compromise and quick (and usually inefficient) fixes. I find it absolutely insane how the injuries are brushed over, like "yeah but" or "other teams had to deal with injuries".
 
Arsenal were absolutely shite for a long time, we were all laughing at Arteta and how bad they looked, and a good chunk of Arsenal fans wanted him gone. This revisionism of 'there was always progress for Arteta' is just nonsense, it took them a long time to get going and look like they were really heading towards something. All being spouted by Ten Hag out Utd fans, with basically every Arsenal fans saying the opposite.
 
Both bolded parts are untrue. He absolutely had a style of play, and the league wasn't particularly strong - he just had to deal with a ridiculously ridiculous season of injuries that no manager could have coped with, doubled with a patchwork squad that didn't fit his style of play, leading to constant compromise and quick (and usually inefficient) fixes. I find it absolutely insane how the injuries are brushed over, like "yeah but" or "other teams had to deal with injuries".

Injuries were bad this year, but even when the team is relatively healthy, I still do not see a style of play that can dominate most games. Man Utd look to be holding on a bit too often for me, giving up tons of possession.

The league was definitely stronger this year behind us than the year before. Spurs, Pool came back in. Villa has emerged and even Chelsea looked to be on a better trajectory.
 
Injuries were bad this year, but even when the team is relatively healthy, I still do not see a style of play that can dominate most games. Man Utd look to be holding on a bit too often for me, giving up tons of possession.

The league was definitely stronger this year behind us than the year before. Spurs, Pool came back in. Villa has emerged and even Chelsea looked to be on a better trajectory.
But this is a silly way to look at it - it's not because you pop one player back into the team that suddenly things work. It's about continuity and players finding a groove. That has just not been possible at any point all this season, it's been in and out with some of the key players missing way too many games to have any sense of continuity and to deliver the football Ten Hag wanted and that was clearly stated last summer.

I'd also argue the emphasis should be on the "relatively" in "relatively healthy" - I think we've had Ten Hag's preferred starting XI lining up once all season.

I wouldn't expect the above to be clear to a non-Utd fan - it's not even clear for most fans who are into immediacy and recency bias despite watching the team week in, week out.

And nah, I don't buy the league being stronger at all. It was pretty meh.
 
But this is a silly way to look at it - it's not because you pop one player back into the team that suddenly things work. It's about continuity and players finding a groove. That has just not been possible at any point all this season, it's been in and out with some of the key players missing way too many games to have any sense of continuity and to deliver the football Ten Hag wanted and that was clearly stated last summer.

I'd also argue the emphasis should be on the "relatively" in "relatively healthy" - I think we've had Ten Hag's preferred starting XI lining up once all season.

I wouldn't expect the above to be clear to a non-Utd fan - it's not even clear for most fans who are into immediacy and recency bias despite watching the team week in, week out.

And nah, I don't buy the league being stronger at all. It was pretty meh.
Just Pool itself coming back into the fold made it stronger ... no? That was the third spot occupied by Man Utd the year before. Not sure I see what you are seeing there.

Injuries are going to affect your continuity for sure. I would suggest that our decline at the end of the previous year was in large part because Saliba went down and our defensive stability was rocked when we had Holding replacing him. We were still playing the same way but we could not hold up defensively. But that is also on Arsenal not having a proper plan B in place to adjust for that. I wouldn't personally rely on a Varane and Martinez backline to carry me through a season. I keep hearing Man Utd need better backup options, I personally believe they need better more reliable starters.

If you are having that many injuries, I tend to believe there is another problem going on that needs to be addressed. Too many injury prone position players, poor training, nutrition, medical staff etc....we had a ton of problems over the last 15 years and at some point I stopped believing that all of it was simply bad luck. Irrespective of injuries, your team still will play a certain style, it will just suck more at it if there are key injuries. I dont see a style that will dominate oppositions with EtH.
 
But this is a silly way to look at it - it's not because you pop one player back into the team that suddenly things work. It's about continuity and players finding a groove. That has just not been possible at any point all this season, it's been in and out with some of the key players missing way too many games to have any sense of continuity and to deliver the football Ten Hag wanted and that was clearly stated last summer.

I'd also argue the emphasis should be on the "relatively" in "relatively healthy" - I think we've had Ten Hag's preferred starting XI lining up once all season.

I wouldn't expect the above to be clear to a non-Utd fan - it's not even clear for most fans who are into immediacy and recency bias despite watching the team week in, week out.

And nah, I don't buy the league being stronger at all. It was pretty meh.


Injuries are on your management too. Everyone knew Varane and Casemiro were crocks. I remember debating this on social media and was laughed at. Casemiro it was common sense his legs would last a season

Relying on Shaw, Martial, Martinez and other players with a long history of injuries is on the management. It's like us keeping Tierney and complaining he's inured all the time.

United signed some of these players knowing their awful fitness record knowing they have a shelf life of a year and also keeping known crocks. So cant be relying on them and blaming it on luck. Plus whenever you've had all your team fit it's still been poor. Correct me if I'm wrong

Sorry if anything comes up too aggressive as the words can't capture tone :)
 
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Circus or no circus the management for the past 10 years left the handling of football to the manager.

So unless good management meant a hands on involvement in daily football I think puting ETH in Arsenal wont change much. Maybe at the very least he got vetoed for 80M Antony purchase
It does mean that, yes. Among other things. But I agree Ten Hag would do well with Arsenal. Big difference between Arteta and the other "I want to be an old school british Manager though I have zero experience in the job", like ETH or Klopp, is Arteta seems to actually be good at picking transfer targets
 
Do you think with all the years of having Ferguson, the whole mentality has remained more to leave things in the hands of the manager, but maybe that is no longer the right way, or you no longer have the manager for it?
it's more so the latter. Ferguson was a sporting director who doubled as a coach. He was amazing at the first job, and very good at the second until late in his career, when he became meh at the first and amazing at the second. Ferguson's success was built on hiring the right people for the right positions he needed to delegate to. It was his vision, more so than his coaching

United have spent the last 10 years hiring coaches, promising them they'd also be sporting directors, and then refused to let them be the latter beyond a certain amount of influence in the market. So they essentially promised people a job they were partially unqualified for, then reneged on the parts of the job that might have allowed them to succeed, while giving them just enough power to prove their lack of qualifications for it....
 
I do enjoy all the people comparing EtH to Arteta. Always saying "who would be more in demand on the open market". How in demand would Arteta have been after his first 2 seasons. The vast majority of managers don't go from where Arteta was to where he is now. Hes obviously a good manager but he has also clearly been very lucky with a few signings which transformed them.

I don't have any faith that magically United will be transformed next season under EtH if we keep him but the idea that after 2 seasons (with EtHs second being unreasonably injury plagued) any Arsenal fans thought they would be where they are is laughable. I reckon that if you took away 3 of Arsenals first choice defenders for most of the season they wouldn't have been anywhere near the title race as well. We have seen what happens to teams that have massive injury issues when Liverpool struggled massively. Thats with one of the best managers ever who had a brilliant squad and had been coaching them for years.
 
Injuries are on your management too. Everyone knew Varane and Casemiro were crocks. I remember debating this on social media and was laughed at. Casemiro it was common sense his legs would last a season

Relying on Shaw, Martial, Martinez and other players with a long history of injuries is on the management. It's like us keeping Tierney and complaining he's inured all the time.

United signed some of these players knowing their awful fitness record knowing they have a shelf life of a year and also keeping known crocks. So cant be relying on them and blaming it on luck. Plus whenever you've had all your team fit it's still been poor. Correct me if I'm wrong

Sorry if anything comes up too aggressive as the words can't capture tone :)
The bolded is what I have been saying over here. I dont know how many seasons went by before I finally realized that our previous set of players were injury prone and we were chasing our own tails. It wasn't about bad luck....we were doing it to ourselves to a certain degree.

If we rely on Zinchenko, Jesus and Tierney and we have injury problems, well it is hard to be too sympathetic. We know there are issues with those players.

Varane is not the the Varane of 5 years ago. He looked completely done at the world cup. I was wondering why they were playing him. It's not that he is necessarily bad, but there are physical issues and he is obviously struggling. He should be a backup. Martinez, I have already shared my opinions of as a CB, but beyond that he is a player who will get injured a fair bit. Having a solid backline is the mo.1 building block.

You cannot predict all injuries but some players are definitely more prone, and I am glad we are not reliant on those anymore like we were in the past.

Speaking of which, I hope Timber can get back to his previous level. ACls are hard to completely recover from, but he looked good in those cameos.
 
I do enjoy all the people comparing EtH to Arteta. Always saying "who would be more in demand on the open market". How in demand would Arteta have been after his first 2 seasons. The vast majority of managers don't go from where Arteta was to where he is now. Hes obviously a good manager but he has also clearly been very lucky with a few signings which transformed them.

I don't have any faith that magically United will be transformed next season under EtH if we keep him but the idea that after 2 seasons (with EtHs second being unreasonably injury plagued) any Arsenal fans thought they would be where they are is laughable. I reckon that if you took away 3 of Arsenals first choice defenders for most of the season they wouldn't have been anywhere near the title race as well. We have seen what happens to teams that have massive injury issues when Liverpool struggled massively. Thats with one of the best managers ever who had a brilliant squad and had been coaching them for years.

Not sure how "lucky" he is with signings when he's the one who's made them. He wanted younger, players with a good passing ability who ard flexible positions wise and work hard. He got them. If they all failed then hed been questioned over them as well.

Re injuries the point is well answered in the post above. In addition when you've had your team fit you've still been poor. It's not me I can see that said by United fans in the ETH thread.
 
A couple of years ago when Arsenal won the FA cup and finished in something like 7th or 8th while we finished 3rd with Ole, we had plenty of United fans saying we had the better season. :lol:

In my opinion, Arsenal had the better season. Finishing runner up to one of the all time greatest managers in Guardiola and a club that has cheated their way for years is nothing to be ashamed about. They've done it whilst playing good football, and have built on the success and progressed from the season before.

I don't mind us finishing a season with a trophy though. That one goes in the record books.
 
Not sure how "lucky" he is with signings when he's the one who's made them.

Because very very few teams make consistently good signings and you got Odegaard for an absolute steal in hindsight. No one thought he would emerge as half the player he has done. Every club does their research and buys what they think will be good fits (well, apart from United) but very few teams pull it off. There is always luck involved in football signings.
 
In 10 years time the only thing anyone will remember is...

Arsenal
22/23 - won nothing
23/24 - won nothing

United
22/23 - won Carabao Cup
23/24 - won FA Cup
 
In 10 years time the only thing anyone will remember is...

Arsenal
22/23 - won nothing
23/24 - won nothing

United
22/23 - won Carabao Cup
23/24 - won FA Cup
I don't even remember you winning the league cup last year. I barely remember who won it this year.
 
Injuries are going to affect your continuity for sure. I would suggest that our decline at the end of the previous year was in large part because Saliba went down and our defensive stability was rocked when we had Holding replacing him. We were still playing the same way but we could not hold up defensively. But that is also on Arsenal not having a proper plan B in place to adjust for that. I wouldn't personally rely on a Varane and Martinez backline to carry me through a season. I keep hearing Man Utd need better backup options, I personally believe they need better more reliable starters.

If you are having that many injuries, I tend to believe there is another problem going on that needs to be addressed. Too many injury prone position players, poor training, nutrition, medical staff etc....we had a ton of problems over the last 15 years and at some point I stopped believing that all of it was simply bad luck. Irrespective of injuries, your team still will play a certain style, it will just suck more at it if there are key injuries. I dont see a style that will dominate oppositions with EtH.
I'm not saying there isn't a bigger problem with injuries - there might be, it's the most likely situation, or it was a completely freakish season. Even if there's a systemic issue which needs to be addressed, there were also some ridiculously unlucky situation such as the one when Martinez came back and Coufal fell on his leg incredibly randomly. It was a cursed season in that regard, to an extent very few clubs have had to deal with. I also don't know why people are trying to pretend that Martinez is an injury prone player.

And Varane/Martinez managed pretty well to carry Utd to a trophy and a third place last season. There's a lot of revisionism.
Do explain (don't mean this cheekily but genuinely)

His league position, goals scored goals conceded every measure has had a down grade.
How is it?
It's lacking context, making the assessment pretty much useless.
Injuries are on your management too. Everyone knew Varane and Casemiro were crocks. I remember debating this on social media and was laughed at. Casemiro it was common sense his legs would last a season

Relying on Shaw, Martial, Martinez and other players with a long history of injuries is on the management. It's like us keeping Tierney and complaining he's inured all the time.

United signed some of these players knowing their awful fitness record knowing they have a shelf life of a year and also keeping known crocks. So cant be relying on them and blaming it on luck. Plus whenever you've had all your team fit it's still been poor. Correct me if I'm wrong

Sorry if anything comes up too aggressive as the words can't capture tone :)
Nah no worries on the tone - as for that, apart from Varane who had been pretty injury prone (not massively, but regular niggles throughout his career), non of the players you mention were signed with any suspicions of them being injury prone. Martinez isn't injury prone - he's had unlucky injuries.

Saying "everyone knew Casemiro was a crock" is revisionism at its finest.

It's just an after-the-fact assessment where you're trying to pretend most of these things were predictable. Most weren't.
I don't even remember you winning the league cup last year. I barely remember who won it this year.
I'd say that's more down to your poor memory than anything else. In general, people that are interested in football will know who wins the trophies in the national competitions they follow and usually the CL.
 
In 10 years time the only thing anyone will remember is...

Arsenal
22/23 - won nothing
23/24 - won nothing

United
22/23 - won Carabao Cup
23/24 - won FA Cup
Agreed, so please keep ETH. He deserves more time. ETH = Trophies. He proved it.
 
I don't even remember you winning the league cup last year. I barely remember who won it this year.
Yeah, who won it this year? I actually don't remember.
edit: had to google it, Liverpool. The whole time I've been thinking it was City
 
I find it absolutely insane how the injuries are brushed over, like "yeah but" or "other teams had to deal with injuries".

'Other teams had to deal with injuries' is a reasonable counterargument.

Injuries are a serious problem but they do not determine results. After all recent CL winners and league winners had their own serious injuries to deal with.
 
'Other teams had to deal with injuries' is a completely reasonable counterargument.
It depends what you mean by reasonable - if you mean "it happened", sure. If you want to be relevant to the conversation, you start looking at a granular level at the amount of injuries, the time out, the impact on the continuity of the team, the team members affected, etc. And when you start looking at that level, you realise it's not a very good argument, no.
 
I think it's a good argument.

Injuries are an important factor but they are not determinant. There is no equation where you plug in the number of injuries, amount of time out, date when it happened, and you get "number of points lost."
 
Agreed, so please keep ETH. He deserves more time. ETH = Trophies. He proved it.

Managers come and go, trophies remain.

As for finishing 2nd or 3rd hmmm not sure any club in the world would make room in the museum or trophy cabinet for that.
 
Yeah, who won it this year? I actually don't remember.
edit: had to google it, Liverpool. The whole time I've been thinking it was City
Honestly, people are getting too wrapped up with trophies. I am not belittling it but it is not everything. I wouldn't have the faintest clue who won the league cup in 2018 let alone 2008 but I remember that Ole did manage to finish Man Utd 2nd one year and it is why he got more time as a manager. Yea, maybe in 40 years from now we will not remember that Arsenal and Pool were the ones pushing City, but the idea that we will remember a league cup win of another club 40 years (whoever still has their marbles left at that time)from now is even more ridiculous. I remember our battles with Man Utd 20+years ago....i still miss them. I even remember Pool and Chelsea generally rounding up the top 4.

Again. Trophies aren't everything.
 
I wonder if the same people who argue that the trophy cabinet is more important than finishing second and playing good football are the same who argue that players stats in terms of goals and assist shouldn’t count that much, i.e Ronaldo discussions.

For me, the trophies are nice, but football should be entertaining, and except for a handful of matches over two years, United have been terrible to watch. Arsenal plays pretty entertaining football and win matches comfortably. United eke out results at Old Trafford against cannon fodder. We barely ever dominate matches even against supposedly much inferior teams.

ETH has over achieved on trophies based on how we have looked throughout the season. Much of it comes down to luck; even against Coventry in the semis there was luck involved. So yeah, trophy wise ETH clearly wins, but in terms of having a functioning team that plays attractive football, Arteta wins. Lest not forget which team is playing CL football next season and which team barely made Europa League. Would the players take the FA cup or playing in the CL?
 
This is funny, but surely nobody is serious with this comparison. I don't even rate Arteta that highly compared to the top managers but he's obviously way better than Ten Hag.
 
Last game syndrome.
Arteta chased City in too the last week. Can see them easily winning next one and if pep feck off, maybe 2 in the row.
 
ETH has won the League Cup and the FA Cup. His progression suggests we're odds on for the title next season.
It's also not like he hasn't had a career before that and it depends through which lens you look at it - the past 12 months, with the issue of recency bias and freak occurrences, but with the added benefit of where they actually are right now (maybe), or looking at their entire body of work, which might give you the benefit of perspective.
 
When we look back at Arteta's time, at the two year mark, (this would be very early 2022), many Arsenal fans were starting to call for his head, perhaps not quite as much as with EtH because we were prepared perhaps a bit more for the long term. It is only in the second half of the 2021-2022 that I personally started to see more promising signs. We developed a style of play that was recognizable. So, it certainly wasn't an immediate impact. Some Arsenal fans have still not warmed up to Arteta. I would suggest it is because of how they had been accustomed to expect an Arsenal manager to run the place as Wenger did They will point to Arteta'lack of trust in the development of young players etc...I wouldn't say there has been complete buy in into Arteta's methods. I think it's a bit naive what those supporters want sometimes but that's their viewpoint.

I said at the end of last season that third place was obviously a good result for EtH, but he had not developed a football philosophy or style of play. It looked more all like grinding out results from individual games. The league standard went up a bit this last season, so this deficiency was more glaring. I would be concerned at this point that he doesn't have that ability to set up a system that can dominate in 75% of Man Utd games.

Maybe you can explain to fans on here who think Arteta had a style from his first season and it was easy for Arsenal fans to see the project.

The thing about when you are building the style of play, you need players to suit it, I remember Arteta was very counter attacking 5 at the back and defensively solid, then when he was allowed to form his team you saw his style being developed.

The board backed him and his vision, soometimes its about getting rid of players. He was allowed to get rid of Mustafi, Ozil, Kolasinac, Wilock, Torerira, Maitland Niles, Guendouzi, Willian, Chambers, Auba, Luiz. Even though most were on a free, he then replaced those with better quality, even though Lokonga, Tavares didnt work, you didnt call for his head because he signed players that were not good enough.

Instead, they backed him again in Zinchenko, Jesus, Viera, Trossard and the like.

You need to have a base to build on, availibility of players needs to be there too.

At United, fans rather get rid of the manager rather than AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, McTominay, Evans, Martial who we know are not good enough.

I had a poster saying we should have re-signed DDG.
 
You can compare them in 2 seasons time when ETH has had the time arteta has had.

arteta didn’t wave a magic wand that made Arsenal competitive, it took time and if most Arsenal fans got their way at the time, he wouldnt of got that. He would have been sacked 2 seasons ago.

where will ETH be in 2 seasons time if given the backing? Will he win more trophies with us ? Would he get us playing good football? My guess is we’ll never find out, hope I’m wrong.