Arteta Vs EtH

Arteta is a far better manager than ETH, has a clear idea of how he wants to play and you can clearly see his imprint on the team

After 2 seasons you couldn't . .

The biggest difference between the pair , is Arteta has a team fully his own , his purchases, and saka , saliba and martinelli fully promoted . They used every window available to them and he's had his own players for 2 full seasons now . The recruitment was really good , but still bought the odd big money flop, that they managed to ship out . Imagine having the time to do that .

Arteta has done a good job , given time , but please , when I see nonsense on here , like " you could clearly see the progression in his first couple of eighth place finishes "

You only have to go back on the arsenal forum , or this one for that matter and read the comments to know that its total revisionism .

The crazy thing is , it's United fans who are rewriting arsenals history , why ?
 
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ETH has won more major tropies in 2 years than Arteta in 5 years. In the end, thats all that really matters.

20 years from now people won't remember or care about the team that came second or almost won a trophy. They get relegeated to the back pages of history.

Saying that though, City should never have been allowed to win the premeir league, political pressure from their state backed owners means they have stolen another trophy.
Clubs would rather have Arteta over Ten Hag right now. So the trophies bit might not last so long unless he miraculously turns it around at United.
 
Arteta would have won the league by now if it wasn’t for 115 charges FC. Built a good team just lacks the prizes to back it up.

EtH is 2 years in, can’t really compare yet. Did manage to win cups despite a club that is an absolute shambles.
 
Took nearly 2 and 1/2 seasons before Arsenal turned the corner under Arteta. The thing that really gets me is how they did it though. They were mediocre, then Arteta kicked Aubameyang off the team, and they became great, overnight, just like that

Have to wonder if there's a specific player at United that's dragging everyone down the way Auba clearly was at Arsenal...
 
Took nearly 2 and 1/2 seasons before Arsenal turned the corner under Arteta. The thing that really gets me is how they did it though. They were mediocre, then Arteta kicked Aubameyang off the team, and they became great, overnight, just like that

Have to wonder if there's a specific player at United that's dragging everyone down the way Auba clearly was at Arsenal...

there are a few!
 
Auba and Ozil were good players but they were very poor leaders. They were meant to be only a cog in the wheel. Better not to have leaders than to have poor ones.
 
Arteta is a far better manager than ETH, has a clear idea of how he wants to play and you can clearly see his imprint on the team
Arteta is current doing a miles better job at Arsenal than ETH has at United but his first two years were poor. Honestly I just couldn’t see the progress but fair play to him for doing that. Having said that ETH has achieved much more in his career so far.
 
ETH has won more major tropies in 2 years than Arteta in 5 years. In the end, thats all that really matters.

20 years from now people won't remember or care about the team that came second or almost won a trophy. They get relegeated to the back pages of history.

Saying that though, City should never have been allowed to win the premeir league, political pressure from their state backed owners means they have stolen another trophy.

Simple question. If you were given a choice to choose between Arteta or ETH as a manager next season for Man Utd, which will you choose? One is PL proven, did relatively well in CL and almost beat the best team in the world built with 115 charges. The other one had just broken all negative records for Man Utd in a season.
 
Simple question. If you were given a choice to choose between Arteta or ETH as a manager next season for Man Utd, which will you choose? One is PL proven, did relatively well in CL and almost beat the best team in the world built with 115 charges. The other one had just broken all negative records for Man Utd in a season.
How do you think it would go if we had Arteta next season? The squad can’t play his football in its current makeup.

Do you think stylistically he would fit? I’d say it is not ideal.
 
Took nearly 2 and 1/2 seasons before Arsenal turned the corner under Arteta. The thing that really gets me is how they did it though. They were mediocre, then Arteta kicked Aubameyang off the team, and they became great, overnight, just like that

Have to wonder if there's a specific player at United that's dragging everyone down the way Auba clearly was at Arsenal...
That's not what happened no. It was gradual and it was as much about the arrival of players as it was departures.
 
After 2 seasons you couldn't . .

The biggest difference between the pair , is Arteta has a team fully his own , his purchases, and saka , saliba and martinelli fully promoted . They used every window available to them and he's had his own players for 2 full seasons now . The recruitment was really good , but still bought the odd big money flop, that they managed to ship out . Imagine having the time to do that .

Arteta has done a good job , given time , but please , when I see nonsense on here , like " you could clearly see the progression in his first couple of eighth place finishes "

You only have to go back on the arsenal forum , or this one for that matter and read the comments to know that its total revisionism .

The crazy thing is , it's United fans who are rewriting arsenals history , why ?

I could see it. Go back and reread threads for proof of needed. They were starting to play nice football with a young team, but not always getting results. It wasn't such a freak turnaround that people make out, rather many just couldn't recognise what he was doing. Until it was slapping them in the face.
 
I don't understand the point of this comparison other than generating some banter. I am happy you guys won the FA Cup over the cheats but it doesn't fix some current glaring problems at Man Utd. His job is under threat. Beyond your league position, I still dont see a definite style of play. That would be my main concern if I was a United supporter. Arteta does have a couple more years in.

If you gave EtH the opportunity to switch up with the Arsenal team/position, he would bite your hand off.
 
I could see it. Go back and reread threads for proof of needed. They were starting to play nice football with a young team, but not always getting results. It wasn't such a freak turnaround that people make out, rather many just couldn't recognise what he was doing. Until it was slapping them in the face.
The first couple of years was just very defensive, trying to solidify the bases. It wasn't nice football at all at first.
 
That's not what happened no. It was gradual and it was as much about the arrival of players as it was departures.
Iirc it wasn't. They were mediocre right until Auba's last game, and great fron the first without him. Like day and night

Like you could say they were gradually getting better until Auba left, sure, but as soon as he did they jumped from 30 to 100
 
I know xG isn't perfect by any means but, just for context, their xG in the last 6 games with Auba(Iirc Everton was the last): for 7.6 against 9.2
First 6 games post Auba: for 12.6, against 5.1
Their total xGD until the everton game(15) was -4.7
After Auba(23): +19.5

It really was an extreme jump in performance
 
I know xG isn't perfect by any means but, just for context, their xG in the last 6 games with Auba(Iirc Everton was the last): for 7.6 against 9.2
First 6 games post Auba: for 12.6, against 5.1
Their total xGD until the everton game(15) was -4.7
After Auba(23): +19.5

It really was an extreme jump in performance
Oh I thought your previous post was a parody post! You were serious!
 
Following Arsenal, yes I was. I believe most Arsenal fans would agree as well

We wouldn't agree completely. You are partially right. Shipping off toxic players did have a good effect but the main turn around was getting Saliba Zinchencko and Jesus that summer and adding Joringho. That's one amazing defender and 3 proven league and CL winners. That's 4 out of 10 outfield new players who aren't lazy, who are totally commited and at the time Jesus and Zinchenko were better than anything we had in their positions.

Arteta improved on his league position and points every season. ETH is nose diving.
 
Is it just me who still doesn't think Arsenal are all that?

This isn't like Klopps peak Liverpool side finishing 2nd. Some Arsenal fan will no doubt quote me and tell me how I'm wrong.
 
Following Arsenal, yes I was. I believe most Arsenal fans would agree as well

Yup, that was when the team first really took off. There were a lot of positive signs beforehand, but huge inconsistency. I would periodize the early Arteta years like this:

December 2019 - December 2020

Arteta takes over, plays around with different tactics before settling on a very conservative setup that wins the FA Cup but then runs into massive problems the next fall as the team has zero cutting edge and is incredibly ponderous moving the ball up the pitch. We can't get many new players due to Covid and finances, the one big purchase in Thomas Partey is immediately hurt and hardly plays, the veteran addition of Willian who was supposed to supply us with more creativity is a total disaster.

January 2021-November 2021

Arteta decides to throw caution to the wind and open things up. This leads to some much more positive play and we first start to see the kinds of patterns in possession that will eventually be a hallmark of the team. But we really can't counter-press or control transitions at all because the CB group is still awful and can't play in space (David Luiz, Holding, Gabriel, Chambers, Pablo Mari). We then buy Ben White and Tomiyasu over the summer and for the first time can field a decent backline that can play higher up the pitch and counter-press more aggressively, but inconsistency still plagues us as the squad is really learning a new way of playing.

December 2021 - May 2021

The big leap forward you identified. Dropping Auba and bringing in Martinelli is a big part but its also just continuing to learn to play the aggressive high line possession tactics that we started implementing a few months earlier. There are still some very big issues. Our CF is Lacazette and can't really threaten anybody, our only half decent LB doesn't really fit the system and can't stay healthy, and the team runs about 11 deep and as soon as anybody is injured the system starts to break down, which happens at the end of the season.

There is still a long way to go after that obviously.

In terms of Ten Hag, I think a generous interpretation of his United tenure is that he is in his own version of the January 2021-November 2021 period, in which he's trying to play more positively but he doesn't have the defenders or defensive midfielder to really control matches while playing high up the pitch, so you have lots of inconsistent results and frustrating games.

The critical interpretation would be that (a) Arsenal in that period of first embracing a more open style of play were still better by almost any metric (goal difference, points, XG) than United were this past year when doing the same thing and (b) Arteta did that while spending a lot less money by the end of that period than Ten Hag has spent by this point. Arteta's teams really got better once he was able to truly spend substantial amounts of money and buy players that fit his system, which didn't really happen in earnest until the summer of 2021 (bringing in White, Tomiyasu, Odegaard, Ramsdale). Ten Hag has spent more money and had worse results when trying to move to a more open style.
 
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Yup, that was when the team first really took off. There were a lot of positive signs beforehand, but huge inconsistency. I would periodize the early Arteta years like this:

December 2019 - December 2020

Arteta takes over, plays around with different tactics before settling on a very conservative setup that wins the FA Cup but then runs into massive problems the next fall as the team has zero cutting edge and is incredibly ponderous moving the ball up the pitch. We can't get many new players due to Covid and finances, the one big purchase in Thomas Partey is immediately hurt and hardly plays, the veteran addition of Willian who was supposed to supply us with more creativity is a total disaster.

January 2021-November 2021

Arteta decides to throw caution to the wind and open things up. This leads to some much more positive play and we first start to see the kinds of patterns in possession that will eventually be a hallmark of the team. But we really can't counter-press or control transitions at all because the CB group is still awful and can't play in space (David Luiz, Holding, Gabriel, Chambers, Pablo Mari). We then buy Ben White and Tomiyasu over the summer and for the first time can field a decent backline that can play higher up the pitch and counter-press more aggressively, but inconsistency still plagues us as the squad is really learning a new way of playing.

December 2021 - May 2021

The big leap forward you identified. Dropping Auba and bringing in Martinelli is a big part but its also just continuing to learn to play the aggressive high line possession tactics that we started implementing a few months earlier. There are still some very big issues. Our CF is Lacazette and can't really threaten anybody, our only half decent LB doesn't really fit the system and can't stay healthy, and the team runs about 11 deep and as soon as anybody is injured the system starts to break down, which happens at the end of the season.

There is still a long way to go after that obviously.

In terms of Ten Hag, I think a generous interpretation of his United tenure is that he is in his own version of the January 2021-November 2021 period, in which he's trying to play more positively but he doesn't have the defenders or defensive midfielder to really control matches while playing high up the pitch, so you have lots of inconsistent results and frustrating games.

The critical interpretation would be that (a) Arsenal in that period of first embracing a more open style of play were still better by almost any metric (goal difference, points, XG) than United were this past year when doing the same thing and (b) Arteta did that while spending a lot less money by the end of that period than Ten Hag has spent by this point. Arteta's teams really got better once he was able to truly spend substantial amounts of money and buy players that fit his system, which didn't really happen in earnest until the summer of 2021 (bringing in White, Tomiyasu, Odegaard, Ramsdale). Ten Hag has spent more money and had worse results when trying to move to a more open style.

Thanks for the detail posts. To me, after spending more than 400M and 2 years there is no excuses to look like the worst coached team in the PL. We were being outplayed by many smaller clubs. We were lucky to win matches due to individual brilliance.

We finish 8th, negative GD, record shots against us, play awful football, in game management was bad, no style of play and etc.

ETH is simply not good enough and need to go.
 
Arteta is current doing a miles better job at Arsenal than ETH has at United but his first two years were poor. Honestly I just couldn’t see the progress but fair play to him for doing that. Having said that ETH has achieved much more in his career so far.
I was ArtetOut for a few months, I couldn't see any development at all. Sometimes it's good to give the manager some time until he gets the players he really wants.
 
I was ArtetOut for a few months, I couldn't see any development at all. Sometimes it's good to give the manager some time until he gets the players he really wants.

He really wanted Antony. I mean really really wanted him.
 
Just looking at their careers in England, there's not a lot between them. I will say that if Ten Hag got the amount of time as Arteta and that was his resume, nobody would be happy.

ten Hag
57.89 Win %
1 FA Cup
1 League Cup
3 Total Finals
Best PL Finish: 3rd (75 ponts)
Best European Finish: Europa League QF

Arteta
59.05 Win %
1 FA Cup
0 League Cups
1 Total Final
Best PL Finish: 2nd (89 Points)
Best European Finish: Champions League QF
 
He really wanted Antony. I mean really really wanted him.
Maybe matching antony with other players he intends to bring will work.

I'd want him gone if I was a united fan, but like I said, I also wanted arteta gone, and here we are, playing great football.
 
I don't understand the point of this comparison other than generating some banter. I am happy you guys won the FA Cup over the cheats but it doesn't fix some current glaring problems at Man Utd. His job is under threat. Beyond your league position, I still dont see a definite style of play. That would be my main concern if I was a United supporter. Arteta does have a couple more years in.

If you gave EtH the opportunity to switch up with the Arsenal team/position, he would bite your hand off.
I believe it is better for Arsenal fans to stay out of this debate. Arteta's job is not in question now, but I am not sure about ETH even after he won the FA cup. I do hope he will be given more time to prove himself though with all his players available to him for selection.
 
I believe it is better for Arsenal fans to stay out of this debate. Arteta's job is not in question now, but I am not sure about ETH even after he won the FA cup. I do hope he will be given more time to prove himself though with all his players available to him for selection.
It is a fair jab to say to say that it took Arteta a while to get going as well and maybe EtH is on a similar trajectory. Arteta was also new to management in general having only done a stint as Pep's assistant (mind you that's not a bad gig in terms of getting experience). I just dont see it at this point with EtH. I didn't see it even last year to be honest and they were better. I thought they were a struggling third overall without a clear style to them. The progression is not there. Considering the stature of Man Utd, I would expect a season finishing 8th to be followed up by a sacking.

The FA Cup maybe saves his bacon for a few more games into next season? I am not sure. If it was the reverse and they had finished third this year then we could be having this conversation...but yes I am with you, I dont think there is much of a debate at the moment.
 
It is a fair jab to say to say that it took Arteta a while to get going as well and maybe EtH is on a similar trajectory. Arteta was also new to management in general having only done a stint as Pep's assistant (mind you that's not a bad gig in terms of getting experience). I just dont see it at this point with EtH. I didn't see it even last year to be honest and they were better. I thought they were a struggling third overall without a clear style to them. The progression is not there. Considering the stature of Man Utd, I would expect a season finishing 8th to be followed up by a sacking.

The FA Cup maybe saves his bacon for a few more games into next season? I am not sure. If it was the reverse and they had finished third this year then we could be having this conversation...but yes I am with you, I dont think there is much of a debate at the moment.
Accurate in everything.
I think if we look up the phrase “flatter to deceive”, you’ll find ETH
He's fortunate to have the fa cup, but I can’t forget the 3-3 against Coventry. The amount of goals conceded, lack of style, playing Antony + Mount, playing AWB left back. Finishing bottom of an easy CL group, we’ve been over run in midfield in pretty much every game.
He’s need to be up pushing for the top 2/3 next year and I can’t see it
 
Simple question. If you were given a choice to choose between Arteta or ETH as a manager next season for Man Utd, which will you choose? One is PL proven, did relatively well in CL and almost beat the best team in the world built with 115 charges. The other one had just broken all negative records for Man Utd in a season.
He would be the manager for a few weeks then he would combust and explode on the touchline
 
Yup, that was when the team first really took off. There were a lot of positive signs beforehand, but huge inconsistency. I would periodize the early Arteta years like this:

December 2019 - December 2020

Arteta takes over, plays around with different tactics before settling on a very conservative setup that wins the FA Cup but then runs into massive problems the next fall as the team has zero cutting edge and is incredibly ponderous moving the ball up the pitch. We can't get many new players due to Covid and finances, the one big purchase in Thomas Partey is immediately hurt and hardly plays, the veteran addition of Willian who was supposed to supply us with more creativity is a total disaster.

January 2021-November 2021

Arteta decides to throw caution to the wind and open things up. This leads to some much more positive play and we first start to see the kinds of patterns in possession that will eventually be a hallmark of the team. But we really can't counter-press or control transitions at all because the CB group is still awful and can't play in space (David Luiz, Holding, Gabriel, Chambers, Pablo Mari). We then buy Ben White and Tomiyasu over the summer and for the first time can field a decent backline that can play higher up the pitch and counter-press more aggressively, but inconsistency still plagues us as the squad is really learning a new way of playing.

December 2021 - May 2021

The big leap forward you identified. Dropping Auba and bringing in Martinelli is a big part but its also just continuing to learn to play the aggressive high line possession tactics that we started implementing a few months earlier. There are still some very big issues. Our CF is Lacazette and can't really threaten anybody, our only half decent LB doesn't really fit the system and can't stay healthy, and the team runs about 11 deep and as soon as anybody is injured the system starts to break down, which happens at the end of the season.

There is still a long way to go after that obviously.

In terms of Ten Hag, I think a generous interpretation of his United tenure is that he is in his own version of the January 2021-November 2021 period, in which he's trying to play more positively but he doesn't have the defenders or defensive midfielder to really control matches while playing high up the pitch, so you have lots of inconsistent results and frustrating games.

The critical interpretation would be that (a) Arsenal in that period of first embracing a more open style of play were still better by almost any metric (goal difference, points, XG) than United were this past year when doing the same thing and (b) Arteta did that while spending a lot less money by the end of that period than Ten Hag has spent by this point. Arteta's teams really got better once he was able to truly spend substantial amounts of money and buy players that fit his system, which didn't really happen in earnest until the summer of 2021 (bringing in White, Tomiyasu, Odegaard, Ramsdale). Ten Hag has spent more money and had worse results when trying to move to a more open style.

Great post and a fair assessment. One thing to add is Arsenal had a stable administration and a proper sporting director during that period and mostly stayed out of circus (except Auba maybe). At United, the administration was all over, followed by take over circus coupled with off field issues with Greenwood, Antony, Sancho, Ronaldo.
 
Great post and a fair assessment. One thing to add is Arsenal had a stable administration and a proper sporting director during that period and mostly stayed out of circus (except Auba maybe). At United, the administration was all over, followed by take over circus coupled with off field issues with Greenwood, Antony, Sancho, Ronaldo.

Circus or no circus the management for the past 10 years left the handling of football to the manager.

So unless good management meant a hands on involvement in daily football I think puting ETH in Arsenal wont change much. Maybe at the very least he got vetoed for 80M Antony purchase
 
Circus or no circus the management for the past 10 years left the handling of football to the manager.

So unless good management meant a hands on involvement in daily football I think puting ETH in Arsenal wont change much. Maybe at the very least he got vetoed for 80M Antony purchase
Do you think with all the years of having Ferguson, the whole mentality has remained more to leave things in the hands of the manager, but maybe that is no longer the right way, or you no longer have the manager for it?
 
Do you think with all the years of having Ferguson, the whole mentality has remained more to leave things in the hands of the manager, but maybe that is no longer the right way, or you no longer have the manager for it?
In SAF's day that was the norm aside from the last few years but that was never going to change whilst he was still there, the game has changed completely, we'll never see another manager like SAF or Wenger
 
In SAF's day that was the norm aside from the last few years but that was never going to change whilst he was still there, the game has changed completely, we'll never see another manager like SAF or Wenger
There won't be another SAF or Wenger. The job football manager disappeared already. Now the so called football manager is first team head coach only.
 
There won't be another SAF or Wenger. The job football manager disappeared already. Now the so called football manager is first team head coach only.
Not exactly - the scope has been reduced, but there are still managers (like Arteta) that are involved in the club beyond first team coaching, which makes a lot of sense. But the all encompaasing boss, yeah that can't work anymore.
 
I feel Pep(especially )and Klopp are quite involved beyond coaching, Arteta maybe has more power too, but you see Edu at the forefront quite a bit as a director of football/development... whatever they are called. It's not at the Wenger (especially post Dein) or Ferguson level. I am not sure where EtH is on that scale.

Arteta recently made the claim he didn't have sole input with the Havertz transfer or indeed any transfer. Seems to indicate it's a committee type decision over at Arsenal.
 
Just looking at their careers in England, there's not a lot between them. I will say that if Ten Hag got the amount of time as Arteta and that was his resume, nobody would be happy.

ten Hag
57.89 Win %
1 FA Cup
1 League Cup
3 Total Finals
Best PL Finish: 3rd (75 ponts)
Best European Finish: Europa League QF

Arteta
59.05 Win %
1 FA Cup
0 League Cups
1 Total Final
Best PL Finish: 2nd (89 Points)
Best European Finish: Champions League QF


Except this is totally misleading

Arteta:
Had control of 20 matches in 19/20 with points per game of 1.65, finishing 8th
8th again next season, first full season with probably the worst Arsenal squad in our history
5th the season after with 69 points and 1.86 ppm
2nd the season after with 84 points and 2.21ppm
2nd again with 89 points and 2.34 ppm

500 million spent but clear upwards trejectory in terms of playing style, players bought by him making his own team, bench quality and position and points. The last 2 seasons only being stopped by 115 charges and the biggest footballing disgrace in history.

ETH:
Season 1 finished 3rd ppm 1.97. Season 2 finished 8th 1.58ppm.
500 million spent in less WAY less time than Arteta, breaking all United records for poor performance and the team's league performance an utter disaster. All the players bought by him for the life of me I can't actually think anyone is a stand out? Your best players are the ones from your academy. To add Arteta was a rookie when he got the job, so its natural he'd take time to bed in. ETH was not a rookie.

If both of them left today it'd be obvious who'd be more in demand. And its not ETH.

What is criminal is how awful the backroom for United have been. No oversight in the money spent, no accountability at all. While its easy to blame the manager you have to ask what the feck is the ownership been doing? United have the name, the history, the prestige and money....why has been there been no accountability at the vast amount of money wasted? How the feck has the Glazer staff (before Ineos) kept their job for years and years?