Arsenal - 2024/25

[B20]

Why wouldn't he be? Trophies are what matter, not just competing. If you end this cycle without winning anything at all you won't be saying "Yeah but at least we took City to the last day of the season".

You're in a position now where you should really be challenging at least domestically for cups aswell as the title but you haven't been. You've had poor cup runs.

He's competing against the best manager in the world, with far more resources at his disposal, and a better team.

Who do you see that could get more points for Arsenal than what Arteta has been doing in recent seasons?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

He's competing against the best manager in the world, with far more resources at his disposal, and a better team.

Who do you see that could get more points for Arsenal than what Arteta has been doing in recent seasons?

The league is not the only competition that Arsenal participate in. Last season they had two poor domestic cup campaigns and one acceptable CL campaign.

 

[SilentWitness]

He's competing against the best manager in the world, with far more resources at his disposal, and a better team.

Who do you see that could get more points for Arsenal than what Arteta has been doing in recent seasons?

What has that got to do with winning and competing in trophies other than the PL?

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I think rival fans just want to see Arteta gone from Arsenal. They rate him, but dont want to admit it. So they disingenuously encourage Arsenal fans to support binning Arteta.

Were not idiots, were not sacking Arteta. He will be Arsenal manager for a long time to come

No disrespect, you sound very insecure and defensive when it comes to things related to Arteta, and lack any perspective. There has been praise for how Arteta has coached this team, across the board, and outspoken jealousy of the duo formed with Edu and how the squad has been rejuvenated (which is hopefully something happening at Utd now with the new structure).

There are however reasonable doubts about his capacity to get the team over the line and actually win something (beyond a fluky FA Cup with a squad that wasn't his, playing ultra boring and defensive football), because that's what success is measured with in football. This isn't limited to here, it's discussed in mainstream media amongst pundits and former pros.

He's competing against the best manager in the world, with far more resources at his disposal, and a better team.

Who do you see that could get more points for Arsenal than what Arteta has been doing in recent seasons?

But the point is, he's gotten close to the league once, regularly sacrificing other competitions after his first half season - he's not gotten close in domestic cups or in Europe. Of course City is the big mean team to beat but there's several other competitions he's engaged in that he just hasn't competed in.

 

[B20]

I'd much rather stick with a manager who has just secured 89 points than go for someone who is more likely to win domestic cups.

Your ten hags and solskjaers may beg to differ, but I'd rather be challenging for the league than the cups.

 

[SilentWitness]

I'd much rather stick with a manager who has just secured 89 points than go for someone who is more likely to win domestic cups.

Your ten hags and solskjaers may beg to differ, but I'd rather be challenging for the league than the cups.

At some point that has to give though. You can't just go season upon season of challenging and winning nothing. At some point something has to change because the likelihood is that team runs out of steam and they're not challenging anymore and they're finishing 4th and 5th.

 

[GoonerBear]

I'd much rather stick with a manager who has just secured 89 points than go for someone who is more likely to win domestic cups.

Your ten hags and solskjaers may beg to differ, but I'd rather be challenging for the league than the cups.

We all want someone that can do both. The problem I see is only 1 man apart from Pep has done that since Pep's first season in the league.

 

[Mickeza]

I'd much rather stick with a manager who has just secured 89 points than go for someone who is more likely to win domestic cups.

Your ten hags and solskjaers may beg to differ, but I'd rather be challenging for the league than the cups.

Odd stick to use against Solskjaer considering he famously said cup wins are misleading in terms of progress and was vilified for it. ETH also has quite a good record in terms of winning league titles I think.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I'd much rather stick with a manager who has just secured 89 points than go for someone who is more likely to win domestic cups.

Your ten hags and solskjaers may beg to differ, but I'd rather be challenging for the league than the cups.

But that's a false dichotomy.

Klopp competed against Guardiola and won the league. But he also took Liverpool to 8 cup finals, winning 4.

If his only achievement at Liverpool had been winning one league title and 'competing' in two more then he would not be as highly rated.

Same with Poch, I would imagine that for many Spurs fans, the memories of getting to the CL final are as meaningful as the memories of competing for the league (not trying to be sarcastic here).

 

[sired44]

I'd much rather stick with a manager who has just secured 89 points than go for someone who is more likely to win domestic cups.

Your ten hags and solskjaers may beg to differ, but I'd rather be challenging for the league than the cups.

Why would you rather challenge for a league that realistically your not going to win, unless you have 115 charges hanging over your heads as oppose to winning a few cups. Nobody remembers runners up. Especially in the league. 1st is first and 2nd is nowhere.
Arteta should put some focus on the cups this year, otherwise its likely to be yet another failure and trophyless season for Arsenal.

 

[GoonerBear]

No disrespect, you sound very insecure and defensive when it comes to things related to Arteta, and lack any perspective. There has been praise for how Arteta has coached this team, across the board, and outspoken jealousy of the duo formed with Edu and how the squad has been rejuvenated (which is hopefully something happening at Utd now with the new structure).

There are however reasonable doubts about his capacity to get the team over the line and actually win something (beyond a fluky FA Cup with a squad that wasn't his, playing ultra boring and defensive football), because that's what success is measured with in football. This isn't limited to here, it's discussed in mainstream media amongst pundits and former pros.

But the point is, he's gotten close to the league once, regularly sacrificing other competitions after his first half season - he's not gotten close in domestic cups or in Europe. Of course City is the big mean team to beat but there's several other competitions he's engaged in that he just hasn't competed in.

Why was his FA Cup win flukey. They had to dig in vs City in the semi like most teams need to against them, but in the final they were at least equal to Chelsea in terms of shots and xG?

 

[B20]

But that's a false dichotomy.

Klopp competed against Guardiola and won the league. But he also took Liverpool to 8 cup finals, winning 4.

If his only achievement at Liverpool had been winning one league title and 'competing' in two more then he would not be as highly rated.

Same with Poch, I would imagine that for many Spurs fans, the memories of getting to the CL final are as meaningful as the memories of competing for the league (not trying to be sarcastic here).

Arteta is not Klopp or Guardiola. Nor is there a manager of that stature available they could get, since there are no other managers of that stature in the game right now.

I think it's fair to say that Arteta is getting as much, if not more, than anyone can realistically expect from this squad. Falling short of beating 115+guardiola doesn't seem like a reasonable stick to beat him with after a an 89 points campaign.

 

[SilentWitness]

Arteta is not Klopp or Guardiola. Nor is there a manager of that stature available they could get, since there are no other managers of that stature in the game right now.

I think it's fair to say that Arteta is getting as much, if not more, than anyone can realistically expect from this squad. Falling short of beating 115+guardiola doesn't seem like a reasonable stick to beat him with after a an 89 points campaign.

Nobody is beating him with that stick though? They're pointing out that in cups they could do much better. Even if you don't have a Pep super team, it's widely accepted that title challenging sides should compete in the cups too. That's always been expected. It was before Pep, it has been during Pep and it will be post-Pep.

 

[B20]

Nobody is beating him with that stick though? They're pointing out that in cups they could do much better. Even if you don't have a Pep super team, it's widely accepted that title challenging sides should compete in the cups too. That's always been expected. It was before Pep, it has been during Pep and it will be post-Pep.

Arsenal don't have the players for it. This squad is not actually as good as what Arteta is getting from them.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I'd much rather stick with a manager who has just secured 89 points than go for someone who is more likely to win domestic cups.

Your ten hags and solskjaers may beg to differ, but I'd rather be challenging for the league than the cups.

That's fine. And they might end up with nothing to show for this period of "challenging". Or he might get them over the line. Or another manager might challenge just the same and win a trophy. It's a forum, it's worth discussing - there are not only upsides to Arteta as of today.

Why was his FA Cup win flukey. They had to dig in vs City in the semi like most teams need to against them, but in the final they were at least equal to Chelsea in terms of shots and xG?

Because it was.

More seriously, when I said flukey, I meant more "dogged", I remember them being quite lucky against City and in that half-season playing very defensive and resilient, not particularly pleasant to watch. I don't particularly remember the final to be honest though. I don't see it as particularly relevant to Arteta - it's his FA Cup of course, but not with his team, not particularly with his principles, and more dogged than conquering. If he leaves Arsenal with just that, it'll be a pretty poor reflection on him, I feel.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I think it's fair to say that Arteta is getting as much, if not more, than anyone can realistically expect from this squad. Falling short of beating 115+guardiola doesn't seem like a reasonable stick to beat him with after a an 89 points campaign.

The squad which he has been building for many years now.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Arsenal don't have the players for it. This squad is not actually as good as what Arteta is getting from them.

That's an absurd take, and I don't think many will agree with you on here (apart from a few Arteta apologists). His displays in cups and particularly in Europe last year had nothing to do with squad depth.

 

[B20]

The squad which he has been building for many years now.

That's the payoff they are getting for sticking with him.

 

[SilentWitness]

Arsenal don't have the players for it. This squad is not actually as good as what Arteta is getting from them.

As someone pointed out. He has been part of that squad building and in the past 5 years aside from United and Chelsea they've spent the most.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

That's the payoff they are getting for sticking with him.

The payoff is a squad that you think is not good enough to win the title?

 

[Rooney in Paris]

The payoff is a squad that you think is not good enough to win the title?

Or competing for cups. But he's the best somehow, for reasons.

 

[B20]

That's an absurd take, and I don't think many will agree with you on here (apart from a few Arteta apologists). His displays in cups and particularly in Europe last year had nothing to do with squad depth.

I don't want to sound like an Arteta apologist here, but they have no clear cut world class players. Compare this side to the city and Liverpool sides of the past seven years. They are no match on paper.

They are overperforming as it is.

 

[B20]

The payoff is a squad that you think is not good enough to win the title?

no, getting more from the team than they otherwise would.

 

[RuudTom83]

All teams have cycles that they all go through, in recent years the peak Liverpool and Arsenal teams have still come up short against City.

If City are punished for the 115 charges then Arsenal might still be able to claim a couple of PL titles with their current team, but if they come up short again 3 years running I might start to doubt they will ever win it.

It's only then you would look back at the last 4-5 years and see 1 FA Cup and think hmm it's not been a great period in Arsenal's history.

 

[B20]

That's fine. And they might end up with nothing to show for this period of "challenging". Or he might get them over the line. Or another manager might challenge just the same and win a trophy. It's a forum, it's worth discussing - there are not only upsides to Arteta as of today.

sure. I think they could improve on their transfers.

But your post kinda highlights the arbitrary standards applied.

Slot could win the league with 88 points this season. that doesn't mean he's done better than Klopp when he finished on 97 and 92 points. it just means he was lucky to have easier competition.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

In a broader sense, it's hard to know what anyone can realistically expect from any squad.

Klopp took his 2017-2018 Liverpool squad to a CL final. I don't think anyone realistically expected that.
The next season, Poch took his Spurs squad to a CL final. I don't think anyone realistically expected that either.
Two years later, Tuchel took the Chelsea 20-21 squad to a CL final, and this time won it against City. I dont' think anyone realistically expected that either.

 

[SilentWitness]

sure. I think they could improve on their transfers.

But your post kinda highlights the arbitrary standards applied.

Slot could win the league with 88 points this season. that doesn't mean he's done better than Klopp when he finished on 97 and 92 points. it just means he was lucky to have easier competition.

That doesn't necessarily mean the competition was easier. It could indicate the rest of the league was better.

 

[B20]

That doesn't necessarily mean the competition was easier. It could indicate the rest of the league was better.

Sure, not necessarily, but in this case it would mean exactly that.

 

[GoonerBear]

But that's a false dichotomy.

Klopp competed against Guardiola and won the league. But he also took Liverpool to 8 cup finals, winning 4.

If his only achievement at Liverpool had been winning one league title and 'competing' in two more then he would not be as highly rated.

Same with Poch, I would imagine that for many Spurs fans, the memories of getting to the CL final are as meaningful as the memories of competing for the league (not trying to be sarcastic here).

I mean, i think even most sane Arsenal fans (there are some out there) can accept he's nowhere near Klopps level yet, let alone Pep's.

The point is, Klopp, & Pep above him, are ridiculously high bars. It's not much of an insult to say he's not at their level yet.

 

[Bilbo]

He's done very well, but nobody remembers plucky runners up, so he'll need to get them over the line - and soon - if he wants to leave a lasting legacy as opposed to a very good platform for the next manager to take on.

I still maintain that his intensity is detrimental to the squad come the business end of the season. I imagine it's mentally exhausting playing for a manager like him.

 

[Changeisgood]

Don't think anyone will match Pep's achievements anytime soon. It will be very difficult for Arteta to reach the Klopp level. In a way I find his achievements more impressive.

I do feel it's like telling legitimate cyclists, you need to beat Armstrong....it is a tough mountain to climb. Respect for Klopp for what he did with Pool because it sure as heck wasn't easy. He probably feels quite cheated.

I think Arteta does have a title in him....

 

[Powderfinger]

All teams have cycles that they all go through, in recent years the peak Liverpool and Arsenal teams have still come up short against City.

If City are punished for the 115 charges then Arsenal might still be able to claim a couple of PL titles with their current team, but if they come up short again 3 years running I might start to doubt they will ever win it.

It's only then you would look back at the last 4-5 years and see 1 FA Cup and think hmm it's not been a great period in Arsenal's history.

Most Arsenal fans believe this team is really still at the beginning of its cycle, given the age of the squad. IMO, Arteta does need to win the PL at some point for his time to be remembered without a lot of regrets. But I think he's got 4-5 more chances at it, including this year.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Most Arsenal fans believe this team is really still at the beginning of its cycle, given the age of the squad. IMO, Arteta does need to win the PL at some point for his time to be remembered without a lot of regrets. But I think he's got 4-5 more chances at it, including this year.

Is it another 4-5 chances at the league without managing to achieve anything in the cups? That doesn’t seem right with the money that’s been spent under him, also what happens if you take a backwards step in the mean time? Theres no guarantee it’s only going to be Arsenal challenging City for the next 4-5 years.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

But that's a false dichotomy.

Klopp competed against Guardiola and won the league. But he also took Liverpool to 8 cup finals, winning 4.

If his only achievement at Liverpool had been winning one league title and 'competing' in two more then he would not be as highly rated.

Same with Poch, I would imagine that for many Spurs fans, the memories of getting to the CL final are as meaningful as the memories of competing for the league (not trying to be sarcastic here).

And if Klopp didn't get that one league he would be rated nowhere near as high with only some domestic cup wins.

Why would you rather challenge for a league that realistically your not going to win, unless you have 115 charges hanging over your heads as oppose to winning a few cups. Nobody remembers runners up. Especially in the league. 1st is first and 2nd is nowhere.
Arteta should put some focus on the cups this year, otherwise its likely to be yet another failure and trophyless season for Arsenal.

Because without a league win, no one ultimately remembers or cares about domestic Cups. Wenger won 3 FA Cups in 4 years and Arsenal fans just felt frustrated he couldn't compete in the league anymore and rival fans just laughed at how Wenger could only win domestic Cups. I'm curious if all the posters that are in this thread this year and last year repeatedly talking about how Arteta must win a domestic cup can dig up some posts from 2013-2017 praising Wenger for winning more FA Cups than Ferguson pr calling those seasons a success just because of an FA Cup. When comparing managers historically, I've never seen anyone bring up domestic Cups as anything but an addon bonus, it's always leagues and CLs that matter.

Without a league win, Arteta can win both domestic Cups for the next three years and I won't consider that successful or care much a few years later. But if he takes a league in thr next three years I will remember that season the rest of my life. Personally, I've enjoy the last two years title races far, far more than any of the last four FA Cup wins from Wenger and Arteta.

As of right now I'd rather take a league title race with a 17% chance of winning the league for this season over a guaranteed domestic cup with zero chance of winning the league.

 

[Powderfinger]

Is it another 4-5 chances at the league without managing to achieve anything in the cups? That doesn’t seem right with the money that’s been spent under him, also what happens if you take a backwards step in the mean time? Theres no guarantee it’s only going to be Arsenal challenging City for the next 4-5 years.

I think most Arsenal supporters definitely expect much more robust cup challenges going forward. A big part of the issue in the FA Cup the last couple years was just tough draws - playing City and Liverpool in the first or second game and losing narrow matches against them. Shit happens in cup football. But we should try harder in the League Cup, which Arsenal as a club has never really taken too seriously. To win that competition you generally need a very deep squad (like City and Liverpool have had recently), a manager who really prioritizes the competition and doesn't rotate, or a ridiculously easy run of ties. I think we now have the squad to put out a relatively strong side even when rotating significantly and I hope we take that competition more seriously. The new European format will make it difficult, however, as the last two CL matchdays are basically right around the same time as the two legged League Cup final so if you're juggling both you'll end up with an insanely busy January instead of using that time as a mini-break or reset period. So we'll what happens.

We could take a step backwards but the squad also has room to improve. No doubt some more challengers will emerge, but I think City will take a big hit as I expect Guardiola to leave after this year almost regardless of the outcome of the case. And for a lot of important players like KDB, Bernardo, Stones, etc to see that as the time to move on too.

IMO, the future is bright and I would certainly bet on us winning at least one PL title under Arteta.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I think most Arsenal supporters definitely expect much more robust cup challenges going forward. A big part of the issue in the FA Cup the last couple years was just tough draws - playing City and Liverpool in the first or second game and losing narrow matches against them. Shit happens in cup football. But we should try harder in the League Cup, which Arsenal as a club has never really taken too seriously. To win that competition you generally need a very deep squad (like City and Liverpool have had recently), a manager who really prioritizes the competition and doesn't rotate, or a ridiculously easy run of ties. I think we now have the squad to put out a relatively strong side even when rotating significantly and I hope we take that competition more seriously. The new European format will make it difficult, however, as the last two CL matchdays are basically right around the same time as the two legged League Cup final so if you're juggling both you'll end up with an insanely busy January instead of using that time as a mini-break or reset period. So we'll what happens.

We could take a step backwards but the squad also has room to improve. No doubt some more challengers will emerge, but I think City will take a big hit as I expect Guardiola to leave after this year almost regardless of the outcome of the case. And for a lot of important players like KDB, Bernardo, Stones, etc to see that as the time to move on too.

IMO, the future is bright and I would certainly bet on us winning at least one PL title under Arteta.

Personally, I hope we don't take the league cup more seriously. I'm not sure our squad is deep enough to really afford a deep league cup run without too many risks the league campaign. Maybe when Pep is gone and if we don't lose any key players to Spain (like Saliba) then next year or the following year we'd be deep enough where a league cup campaign wouldn't potentially hurt us. As I said, I don't buy into the "Arteta must win a domestic cup this year" BS.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

And if Klopp didn't get that one league he would be rated nowhere near as high with only some domestic cup wins.

He'd be rated highly, since he won the Champions League.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Because without a league win, no one ultimately remembers or cares about domestic Cups. Wenger won 3 FA Cups in 4 years and Arsenal fans just felt frustrated he couldn't compete in the league anymore and rival fans just laughed at how Wenger could only win domestic Cups. I'm curious if all the posters that are in this thread this year and last year repeatedly talking about how Arteta must win a domestic cup can dig up some posts from 2013-2017 praising Wenger for winning more FA Cups than Ferguson pr calling those seasons a success just because of an FA Cup. When comparing managers historically, I've never seen anyone bring up domestic Cups as anything but an addon bonus, it's always leagues and CLs that matter.

I wasn't posting here but I remember thinking that Arsenal seemed to be turning a corner with the first FA cup wins.

Unfortunately that was not the case in the end. But at least you got some cup wins out of it. Unlike, say, seemingly turning the corner by competing in the league... and then not winning it.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

He'd be rated highly, since he won the Champions League.

True, I wasn't thinking of Europe when I wrote that, so let me rephrase. If Klopp only won those domestic cups, he'd never be rated so highly. Even if Klopp won all 8 domestic cup finals but no league or CL, he wouldn't be rated nearly so high.

No manager historically is rated well just based on domestic cup wins. Even Emery's three straight Europa Leagues, four in total and five Europa league finals isn't considered top tier.

I wasn't posting here but I remember thinking that Arsenal seemed to be turning a corner with the first FA cup wins.

Unfortunately that was not the case in the end. But at least you got some cup wins out of it. Unlike, say, seemingly turning the corner by competing in the league... and then not winning it.

And as I said, I enjoyed these past two year title runs much more than the seasons Wenger won 3 out of 4 FA Cups, and I never thought he was "turning a corner" in the league. And as I said, I'll take a 17% of winning the league this year with no domestic cup over a guaranteed league cup and zero chance of winning the league this upcoming season.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I agree.