The disrespect Bruno gets just because he plays for United and played with a team with a lot of problems. Be it Portugal or United.Arsenal - 2024/25
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The disrespect Bruno gets just because he plays for United and played with a team with a lot of problems. Be it Portugal or United.Mad isn't it?! I think he's one of those that if he doesn't play for your side and you're not watching him week in, week out, he's easy to underestimate. Brilliant player and I'm so glad he's ours.
It is a tough start. Villa next who beat us home and away last season, Brighton at home, then Spurs and City away back to back after the international break. I think the tough start is why we got the guys like Saka and Rice had short breaks, because we need the team at it early on.
Don't think given the fixtures there's much chance of doing what Liverpool did to them and just build up a lead that kind of broke their spirit a bit. I am glad to get City away out the way early mind you, better now than when they hit beast mode in the 2nd part of the season.
All read was
Ozil/Bruno
Games: 426/383
nPGA: 201/163
All this while Ozil played almost all his life in top 5 league.
In any case I know what I have seen. They are not even close.
Bruno edges Ozil on both goal and shot creation per 90. All this while playing in a side that's been largely inferior to the arsenal sides that Ozil played in. 'I know what I've seen' just smacks of confirmation bias, which is understandable as an arsenal fan. If I had to bring one player in to create to save my life it's Bruno. Though if I had to bring one of them in to look silky and play pretty little one twos then it'd be Ozil.
Reckon there's a decent chance Bruno is the most underrated player in the league.
Put him at Arsenal or City and people would finally admit he's one of the BPITW. He's absolutely world class and the only reason neutrals don't think that is because he's been playing largely with dross and is a bit of a cnut on the pitch.
I'm convinced if you swapped Odegaard for Bruno, Odegaard would struggle in United's headless chicken football and Bruno would continue to be absolutely absurdly creative in a system that better masks his weak points.
Put him at Arsenal or City and people would finally admit he's one of the BPITW. He's absolutely world class and the only reason neutrals don't think that is because he's been playing largely with dross and is a bit of a cnut on the pitch.
I'm convinced if you swapped Odegaard for Bruno, Odegaard would struggle in United's headless chicken football and Bruno would continue to be absolutely absurdly creative in a system that better masks his weak points.
First, Its not a given that if a player plays in a better teams his numbers improve. In majority of cases it regresses unless the player also grows. This is especially the case when you use goal creation numbers over assists. So you cannot play the same card twice. I would say its the other way around. In a small team everything flows through a player thus those numbers are inflated.
Second, I had no idea suddenly people have started preferring shot creation and goal creation more that actual goals and assists. Or its probably the case of as you put it 'Confirmation Bias'
In any case to each his own.
And on Odegaard vs Bruno
As I explained I would pick Bruno over Martinelli or Havertz currently as our LW or CF. But wouldn't pick him in our midfield 3.
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If he has a finisher like Haaland then his numbers would be great. But he doesn't suit Arsenal or Citys system.
And you may call it underrated but its true that not many outside United fans rate him as highly. He is a type of player who works great in cups but over a 38 game season its difficult to carry. We had the same problem with Ozil actually.
Do you not think part of the reason United play headless chicken football is because of Bruno's weaknesses?
Also, Arsenal's system wouldn't mask Bruno's weak points because our system wouldn't function with him in the team instead of Odegaard. Bruno might be absurdly creative but he doesn't have the skill set to control a game. Every time I watch him play he treats the ball like a bomb that's going to explode if he doesn't make a key pass or shoot within 2 seconds of receiving it
If De Bruyne works in City's system then Bruno does. The idea that he's notably more wasteful than him is a complete myth and not backed up by the stats.
The main reason neutrals don't rate Bruno as highly is because he plays in a shit team, has a personality that leads people to enjoy his failure on the pitch, and plays for a club that neutrals love to shit on.
I'm very, very happy he's here and glad he's staying, but unless we actually build a decent side with him in that challenges he's always going to have a lower legacy than his talents deserve.
No, I think it's two managers in a row preferring transition based football, emphasizing quick turnovers and absolutely refusing to sign midfield players who can look after the ball. Bruno is encouraged to play quickly with maximum risk. Put him in a more structured side where he receives the ball higher up the pitch and doesn't have to go searching for it so much and nobody would be talking about it.
Bruno is a terrific player, probably head and shoulders above most of our creative players (and in the league). I would also absolutely hate for that moaning, negative, cheating git to be anywhere near my football club.
Don't think you watch him very often then
Cheating? He dives like most of your players, have some sense of self awareness.
The player closest to him in terms of cheating, though a far superior talent, was Bobby Pires. Our current lot are schoolboys compared to these two masters.
I cannot believe an Arsenal fan of all people has come out with that!
Without knowing how KDB recovers his form. Bruno is hands down the best offensive player in the league. Idc what the stats say. That man is dangerous. Can hurt you from anywhere on the pitch. Love to see it.
Arsenal will win the league no doubt.
Arsenal will win the league no doubt.
Exactly...
Possession teams play a game of probability and try to derisk as much as possible. Its a game of patience. Bruno plays a game of chance. While exciting for neutral fans it does not help control games.
And yes our system would not work with him. We press with high intensity during turnover but that only works if the turnovers are low.
Odegaard plays 46 passes per match on average with a pass completion of 86%
Bruno 53 passes per match with a completion rate of 79.8%.
Over the course of a game Bruno will give away the ball roughly 5 times more than Odegaard. And that's assuming that in Arsenal's system Bruno would see as much of the ball. If you normalised the passes it's about 3 times more. Over 90 minutes I simply do not believe that that is the difference between a system functioning or not functioning.
There might be other reasons why Odegaard is a better fit for Arsenal, and he does look after the ball better, but the obsession with how much Bruno gives the ball away doesn't really stack up. No, his pass completion stats aren't exceptional, but they're not as horrific as some of his detractors make out.
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Odegaard and Bruno Fernandez are different players for me. The former is more a tempo setter and DLP in the mould of Modric, and I see him dropping deeper to help be our metronome in time. The latter is an attacking 10, in the mould of KDB. Respects diminishing spaces a great deal and can release players into space with a brilliant weighted pass in an instant.
If Bruno had to play for Arsenal, I'd play him as a 10, ahead of Odegaard and Rice.
----------Bruno
Odegaard---Rice
You add a forward that can run into space as well, someone like a Gyokeres or better yet Isak. Arsenal would be dangerous in all facets of play with a profile like Bruno in our midfield.
If Bruno had to play for Arsenal, I'd play him as a 10, ahead of Odegaard and Rice.
----------Bruno
Odegaard---Rice
You add a forward that can run into space as well, someone like a Gyokeres or better yet Isak. Arsenal would be dangerous in all facets of play with a profile like Bruno in our midfield.
So you think that playing in a better team is more likely to negatively impact a player's numbers? I don't think that's true at all. And the question was which of them was more creative, not productive. So yes, I'll take the creation stat on this one. Even by your actual goals and assists Bruno is on 0.42 per game where Ozil is 0.47. Again, that's while playing in a poorer side. Your assertion earlier that he's a cup player but not one to 'carry' over the course of a season is madness, in all honesty
Ignorance is bliss as they say
It's a bit pointless on a Utd board to have a discussion of Bruno Vs Odegaard etc, there will always be supporter biases on both sides, not to mention just individual preferences.
I was involved in similar discussions a season or 2 ago with Gabriel Vs Martinez and it derailed the thread just going round in circles.
I was involved in similar discussions a season or 2 ago with Gabriel Vs Martinez and it derailed the thread just going round in circles.
Yeah you're right, both sets of fans will always favour their own teams player.
Though I will say, you won't find threads like "we will never win the league with Odegaard in our midfield" on any arsenal forums.
Though I will say, you won't find threads like "we will never win the league with Odegaard in our midfield" on any arsenal forums.
Pass completion isn't a complete measure of turnovers. For example the stats suggest Bruno had 20 losses of possession this weekend with 42/50 passes completed which suggests many cases of poor touches, poor dribbles and getting tackled leading to turnovers.
Odegaard by comparison had 10 losses of possession this weekend.
I'm not sure where to get a good comparison of losses of possession adjusted for total involvements, over a large sample size, say a season. I'd be interested to see those stats because I'm convinced my eyes aren't lying to me, he gives the ball away at an absurd rate.
I wouldn't have Bruno anywhere near our midfield. He just doesn't suit our controlled possession-based style. We would be compromising everything just to shoehorn him in. Arteta wouldnt never do it
Honestly, who cares? Doesn’t Bruno have his own thread?
Agreed.
When Arsenal win feck all yet again will questions be asked of Arteta?
This is an important season for him I think. I don't think anybody expects him to win the league with Pep and City still around, but I'm beginning to see some pressure from fans to win something else. I don't think many of them will find going out early-ish in the domestic cups acceptable again, especially if there is no title or CL win to compensate for it at the end of the season.
I think most fans are inclined to give him a lot of leeway though, because he has essentially brought them from finishing 5th-8th for years to genuine title contenders. He's rightly earned a lot of goodwill.
He's spent a fortune to be nearly rans.
Least it's actually nearly rans, and not spending a fortune like a lot of clubs have to be nowhere near rans.
I mean it's still City and Pep's juggernaut they're competing with. As long as Pep is around, I don't personally think there is any pressure on Arteta to win the title. He's playing with house money in that regard, because if wins the title vs Pep, the credit and acclaim he gets will cement him as one of the best in the world (which he kinda already is imo, but he doesn't have the trophies to back it up), and if he finishes 2nd again, well it's Pep and City innit.
He does probably need to start doing better in the domestic cups though.
Yeah, that’s fair. We have the squad to compete in all competitions at this point and should be doing better in the cups. Our record there is poor since winning the FA cup in his first year.
As far as spending…nobody is going to compete at the top of the PL without it and I think Edu/Arteta have constructed a contender in a relatively cost efficient way. Spurs have actually spent more on transfer fees than Arsenal since Arteta has arrived. And obviously Chelsea and United as well.
That's because on redcafe it's ok to speak out against your own and have a true opinion and debate unlike the echo chambers on your club's forums. Any posts critical of your own are shut and the users banned.
Just keep it this way. I've seen many united fans here saying they would swap bruno with odegaard, especially during your slump last season.
Yet you will never find any Arsenal fans willing to agree to that deal.
Yet you will never find any Arsenal fans willing to agree to that deal.
That's not true at all. You can go on any forum right now and see tons of criticisms for players. The criticisms I've seen for Bruno though, your supposed best player and best #10 in the league, has been way beyond that.That's because on redcafe it's ok to speak out against your own and have a true opinion and debate unlike the echo chambers on your club's forums. Any posts critical of your own are shut and the users banned.
Same answer as before. We have different and differing opinions. A bigger club like United has huge number of fans across the world and not having won the league for 11 years, fans feel frustrated, upset and may have opinions which to against the grain. We brought poorly in the last decade excluding a couple of excellent buys of which Bruno is one.
A team like yours which is happy being also rans for over 2 decades and living in their own echo chambers when majority of your fans wanted Arteta out just a couple of seasons ago and then fanning over him have the audacity to say no Arsenal fans are willing to swap. Jog on.
You really haven't seen our main forums.... Arteta is compared to Hitler on one of them. I don't even visit anymore.That's because on redcafe it's ok to speak out against your own and have a true opinion and debate unlike the echo chambers on your club's forums. Any posts critical of your own are shut and the users banned.
Count me in on the Arsenal fans that would never swap. I dont like Bruno's attitude on the pitch. Not a player I ever cast envious' eyes on. He is a good player individually. Creates loads...but no thanks. The one player I would have taken last year is Dalot. All your other players, I think we either had our version or we had a better one. This season is another season though...and football changes quickly.
And the CL. I thought they were genuinely unimpressive in the CL last year. They had all their eggs in one basket, which their direct competitors didn't.