So true
Arsenal - 2024/25
- Thread starter oneniltothearsenal
- Start date
So true
Great player, not on the same level as Bruno or De Bruyne as a #10, though. They are two players you can give the keys to and they'll leave you in awe with their creativity and can make it look like a form of art. There's a lot of spontaneity to it as well which makes it unpredictable. They not only create a more, it's also a lot more instinctive and spontaneous. Almost every pass and final ball is dangerous. They can also create these passes and final balls out of nothing, on their own. With Odegaard I've never seen that. Like De Bruyne himself said, it's a "bit more controlled" and feels a bit robotic to me. He's doing his job as part of a well-oiled system very well, but he doesn't have what it takes to run the team's attack like the 2 aforementioned players. Remember Özil? He's another true creator from the past you can build your attack around, just like Bruno or KDB.
Regarding the goal contributions, if you really want to lean on the numbers, Odegaard has been playing for a top 4 team in the world for the last 2 seasons that came very close to winning the league over the best team in the world twice in a row, that's also one of the greatest club sides of all time. Bruno almost matched the Norwegian's numbers whilst playing for a top 4 contender in 22/23, and then for a team that the underlying numbers had at 14th in 23/24. He's never had a team around him like Arsenal 22/23 or 23/24. Not even close. And then KDB matched Odegaard's numbers with a fraction of his minutes played.
Fernandes
PL: 8G+8A=16GA (22/23) + 10G+8A=18GA (23/24) = 34GA in 6440 minutes (71.55 matches). A goal contribution every 189 minutes.
All comps: 14G+14A=28GA (22/23) + 15G+13A=28GA (23/24) = 56GA in 9450 minutes(105 matches). A goal contribution every 169 minutes.
Odegaard
PL: 15G+7A=22GA (22/23) + 8G+10A=18GA (23/24) = 40GA in 6254 minutes (69.48 matches). A goal contribution every 156 minutes.
All comps: 15G+7A=22GA (22/23) + 11G+11A=22GA (23/24) = 44GA in 7457 minutes (82.85 matches). A goal contribution every 169 minutes.
De Bruyne
PL: 7G+18A=25GA (22/23) + 4G+10A=14GA (23/24) = 39GA in 3653 minutes (40.58 matches). A goal contribution every 94 minutes.
All comps: 10G+31A=41 (22/23) + 6G+18A=24GA (23/24) = 65GA in 5435 minutes (60.38 matches). A goal contribution every 84 minutes.
I want to also mention the 20/21 season for Bruno, when he arguably had the best team and environment around him in his United career to date (but 20/21 United still wasn't even close to 22/23 or 23/24 Arsenal's levels):
29 G/A in the league in 3109 minutes (34.54 matches). A goal contribution every 107 minutes.
45 G/A in all comps in 4585 minutes (50.94 matches) A goal contribution every 102 minutes.
I don't even think the stats matter that much in relation to the point I'm trying get across here, but they don't really back you up as much as you try to imply either...
De Bruyne and Fernandes are clearly the two best creation machines in the world. I don't see how it's an absurd take that Odegaard doesn't match them in this aspect. He's a great #10 with a lot of great qualities and an overall very impressive skillset, but you just need to watch all three play and create for their team, and you'll see what I mean.
Arsenal have one attacker that's a true maverick and a true answer to Haaland and KDB at City, and that's Bukayo Saka. A world class player that can mean the difference between 1st and 2nd, and can carry a whole team on their backs when needed. Odegaard isn't that guy, sorry.
Last edited:
I've seen the headlines for halfway through the season, Whats gone wrong at Arsenal?
I think this is pretty accurate in terms of Odegaard's creative output compared to those two but that your previous post was misreading him as a player if your conclusion is that he isn't one of the three most important in the team or that anybody is replacing him anytime soon. Odegaard is the side's tactical leader and essentially Arteta's brain on the pitch. He leads the press from the front and makes decisions about when to trigger. In possession he is the guy that drops deep and finds solutions for advancing the ball against a high press or that collects the ball and looks to activate moves against a midblock. He is more of an 8 than a 10. KDB used to be a bit like that but has become more of a pure 10 over time, whereas Bruno has always played that role.
There are lots of successful teams (indeed, most successful teams) that don't have a Bruno or KDB-level creator as part of the midfield so I don't think that is a huge problem. But we do need one more dynamic player in attack.
I get why people feel he's indispensable for Arsenal and no doubt he's been an important player for you ever since he joined. However, I cannot put him above any of Saka, Saliba, or Rice in terms of importance. If you think otherwise, I respect your opinion and what you say about Odegaard's role (leading the press, tactical leader, etc.) in the team is very valid. I also wanted to say, but in the end left it out, that maybe he would be better as an #8 in the long-term, if Arsenal can sign or develop someone into that creative #10 role and push Odegaard a bit deeper, because he has the tools for it. If that's not possible, then I guess you have to look at the left winger or striker position and add a difference maker there, so that he can compensate for not having a KDB/Bruno type?
Last edited:
We are one if the biggest teams in pure size and bully teams at the set piece.
Arsenal being 'soft' is on old cliche that goes back to when Wenger recruited heavily small nimble tricky players.
However this team is stacked with big players and hard tacklers. The press form the front is strong and no player would dare not track back or put in a shift off the ball. If you think Arteta is soft you are in arrears. Arteta would not allow sfor such lack of effort. Rashfrod for example, wouldn't survive Arsenal under Arteta. What that guy gets away with at Man United, wouldn't be tolerated at Arsenal
Bruno? Bruno is the reason Man United treat the ball like a hot potato and cant control a football match. Odegaard is levels to Bruno.
Laughable casual narrative. KDB might be the number one #10 still but Bruno is closer to him than Odegaard is to Bruno. The Norwegian is an inferior profile, simple as that.
United last three seasons for goals scored in the league is 57, 58,57. Scoring less than 60 goals is a horror showing for a team wanting to be at he top end of the table, to do it three seasons in a row is indicative of some seriously underlying issues. And Ive felt Bruno is guilty for Man United's poor chance creation. Yes, Bruno's individual stats are high, however that's because he attempts so many low percentage efforts and is guilty of losing possession. He cant run a midfield, he cant cycle possession.
Man United will not develop the patterns of play needed to create enough chances to score closer to 90 league goals, largely in part because of Bruno. He is a net negative, and I cannot believe he was given a new contract.
Bruno being a creative midfielder is a fallacy and red herring. Creating 5 chances in a match isnt a good thing if they are the only 5 chances created because you are assuming total ownership of creating chances by making low percentage passes that often give the ball away.
Prolific bottlers will do what they do the best - win jack shit. I hate Pep in premier league and the cheating a-holes that City are, but if anything good ever came out of them, it was surely torturing Arsenal and keeping them trophiless
KdB's creativity is above them all...but his defensive contributions are limited. It's why Pep sometimes yanks him.
Odegaard is the best two way player. Always reading the play incessively....creating...pressing... Man Utd fans have been discussing letting Bruno (who I dont think is a good leader) go. I dont think you see any Arsenal fans having that thought with Odegaard. So if Bruno is clearly the second best player at his position, I dont see why you are even thinking of letting him go.
Odegaard is the best two way player. Always reading the play incessively....creating...pressing... Man Utd fans have been discussing letting Bruno (who I dont think is a good leader) go. I dont think you see any Arsenal fans having that thought with Odegaard. So if Bruno is clearly the second best player at his position, I dont see why you are even thinking of letting him go.
Yep, you go ahead and tell yourself that. You’re not bullying anyone. Qoute me again in May.
LIke I said. Man United have failed to crack 60 league goals three seasons in a row. What degree of responsibility does Bruno assume for that?
Bruno cant run a midfield
Running a midfield isn't an individual task and blaming United's lack of creation down to the one player who consistently provides a semblance of it is severely flawed analysis.
There is no one midfielder you could drop in to this team instead of Bruno, with all other things remaining the same, over the last 3 seasons who would've delivered superior control in possession and a higher volume of chances being created.
Are we simply parroting this line because it was true of many of Wenger’s teams and has oft been a stick with which to beat Arsenal with?
They are no more lacking in leadership than any other side. The likes of Rice, Odegaard, Saliba and Gabriel are ample when it comes to the leadership stakes. I know we love to say ‘Arsenal bottle this’ and ‘Arsenal bottle that’ but them finishing second wasn’t a consequence of ‘bottle’. They were pipped to the post by a juggernaut side that were perfection within the home straight. Once they smell blood they’ll pounce.
Arsenal’s shortcomings are in not possessing a certified, outstanding goalscorer that can contribute 20-plus PL goals much like Haaland does for City. Their defence is outstanding and their depth there is now arguably equal to City, perhaps slightly worse.
Their first team midfield is strong though could probably do with a #6 or #8 depending on where they decide to play Rice as they do lack quality depth there. Then they’re fine on the wings but could do with a striker as Havertz and Jesus aren’t reliable enough in the key moments.
They are so so close to City (obviously as evidenced by narrowly missing out on the league). Getting over the finish line this time won’t be remedied by adding an extra body that shouts and barks orders demonstrating ‘supposed leadership’. That’s not something they’re in short supply of.
This is just a crazy take though.. Odegaard is above Bruno and much closer to KDB than Bruno is (although KDB is another beast creativity wise). The stats back that up in all regards, and so does the eye test.
Odegaard creates plenty I don't even know how people can't see that, probably not quite as much as Bruno but very similar with many other advantages. The counter is Bruno is doing it in a worse team, but equally everything goes through Bruno, whereas for Arsenal we have contributions all over the pitch.
I've been in here a lot during Arsenal and United games and the amount of United fans that slate Bruno and then watch Arsenal and wish they had Odegaard is nuts. I don't see any Arsenal fans ever slating Odegaard, especially the past 2-3 years.
Last edited:
Loads, just because I say you're not good enough to win it and feel I can see things clearly doesn't mean I'm wearing tinted glasses when looking at United. I haven't even mentioned Bruno or ourselves in comparence to Arsenal. In the United prediction thread I have Arsenal ahead oif United I believe you're a better team that's come further.. However, I have City above everyone which means you'll be 2nd or 3rd. That's all.
Bruno and other top players at our club have failed and underperformed. Granted, he's our best player but I think that says more about United than him.
Two wrongs, don't make it right. Neither of our clubs will be lifting the trophy come the end of the season.
Okay, this will be my final reply on Arsenal. Not sure how I ended up spending so much time in this thread. It wasn't appriciated by the missus at Bologna airport last night.
I think the players you've mentioned aren't dominant enough through a season to win you the league. They won't single handedly win you games and evidentally not titles either.
My basis is that you're having the two best seasons in 15 or so years and I still feel you weren't that close. Yea Son could've scored but you got thrown out of the CL by the worst Bayern Munich team in decades. When push came to shove and all was accounted for, you won absoluterly nothing. Dominant corners, scoring loads of goals, winning the games you should and still trophyless. Why?
I run a successful business in Sweden and managers and senior staff aren't the ones who drag us to be successful. In the economic regression we faced i have 2 or 3 members of staff that keep hitting their targets, goals and constantly perform under pressure. They get theirs. Without them we would not win accounts and be able to grow.
It's a very subjective opinion based on my assumptions and somewhat ecperinces but looking at Arsenal I don't see it.
I don't see this relevance ha but we had plenty of players who performed under pressure last season. The season before I can admit we should have done better but last season in the league it was more a case of City just being unstoppable. How weren't we not that close? It came down to 2 points, basically 1 game last season.
City didn't lose a game in their last 23 matches and won their last 9 in a row.
They were great, you played some great football and ended up celebrating absolutely nothing. That's my point. Nothing you've done in the summer suggests you'll be a better team.
I'd have us as third. I don't think we'll score as many goals on set-pieces and have such few injuries 2 years in a row.
The squad is pretty much the same even if we add Calafiori and Merino. More CL games will also stretch us harder than City.
So in conclusion, Odegaard is better than Bruno.
The squad is pretty much the same even if we add Calafiori and Merino. More CL games will also stretch us harder than City.
So in conclusion, Odegaard is better than Bruno.
So, for all this talk of progression and project under Arteta, you are thinking this year will be a regression?
It's not talk, we have progressed massively under Arteta. But we also got a lot of things going our way. I don't think that 7 points gap with Liverpool is that big if we get a few knocks to our main 11. The positive thing is it's not Klopp in charge and Liverpool haven't bought anyone so even with a drop off we might edge it. Villa will struggle with the CL and i don't believe in Spurs, Chelsea or United making that big of a jump in one year.
Our summer has been underwhelming so far. Not enough players cleared out and only Cala of note coming in. Edu says there is more coming, so I guess we can expect more...not too convinced. City's summer has been perhaps even more surprising.
FFP likely playing a significant role. Chelsea apparently have another hotel to sell, but other clubs are watching it closely.
FFP likely playing a significant role. Chelsea apparently have another hotel to sell, but other clubs are watching it closely.
IMO, Odegaard is behind both Saka and Saliba in importance, as those two are essentially impossible to replace. He is probably on par with Rice.
I think KDB is essentially a unicorn player, with Bruno not too far behind him in terms of chance creation. But that attribute is so unusual, and so few teams play with a real 10 nowadays anyway, that I would never squad plan thinking about how to compensate for not having a player like that. You just need to generate enough chances as a team and there are many ways to make that happen. Outside of Man City, most of the great teams in recent years did not rely so much on one attacking midfield player as the creative fulcrum: Liverpool, any of Real Madrid's great sides, the Bayern of either their CL winning campaigns, the MSN Barcelona, etc.
IMO, the biggest issue with Arsenal is just being able to consistently create chances from the left hand side, both in terms of moving the ball down that flank but especially in terms of converting threatening positions into actual chances. The long term answer to that may end up being a new LW player if Martinelli doesn't regain his 22-23 level but it also could be just having more consistency and creativity in the left 8 role and having consistent threat from the LB position rather than playing much of the year with guys like Kiwior and Tomiyasu there who aren't threats to do much of anything dangerous with the ball at their feet. But despite the left hand side being broken all year, we scored 91 league goals.
Other than a striker, what do you need?
I can sort of see where he is coming from.
To win the league, you basically need a 90+ points season. We've hit 90 points once in the Invincibles season.
Last season we had a core of key players we were able to keep fit, so that benefitted us greatly.
We also went out the 2 domestic cup competitions early, so that limited game time a little for us.
Last season, we took 6 points from Utd, 4 points from Liverpool, 4 points from Spurs, 4 points from City, 4 points from Chelsea. That won't be easy to replicate this season.
To counter these, I can give you reasons why I think we could get to 90 points +. We'll add Timber and Calafiori to a backline that's already very good, and they should help improve the left back area and cover the defence as a whole to allow for rotation and injuries.
Havertz looks like he's carrying on his good form from last season, Jesus is apparently fitter than he has been post World Cup injury, Partey should play more of a part this season, we'll hopefully add Merino and a forward to improve the squad further.
However, the season could start and all theories and predictions could soon prove silly.
I think we'll know pretty early on where we are at. First 3 away games are at Villa, Spurs and City. The results in those will be a good indicator to what we are playing for this season.
Could be my very poor memory, but also felt like you scraped a few very tight wins in the first 10-15 games last season.
Yeah, I think we took a while to get going.
From memory we were kind of hanging on vs Forest opening game, we went down to 10 men with a harsh sending off vs Palace and hung on to a 1 goal win, staged a late comeback to lead Vs Fulham only to concede late on when they were down to 10 men, needed the tightest of Garnacho offsides and 2 late goals to beat Utd, Jorginho sold the Spurs equaliser at home to drop 2 points, needed a late comeback to draw with Chelsea after being out played for 75 mins. That's just off the top of my head.
Think basically, we need the first half of the 22/23 season, combined with the 2nd half of 23/24. Should be easy enough!
As with just about any side, you can make a case for Arsenal being both better or worse.
I think in general its just very hard to get 89 points in the PL so any team that does so is probably a good bet to perform worse the next season. Even United under SAF only once had two straight seasons of 89+ points. Klopp did it once. Chelsea under Roman did it once. This is another area where Pep has basically just broken the game.
We'll see what the rest of the transfer window brings but I think there are also some pretty good reasons to think City might be worse than last year. It wouldn't shock me if this was more like an 88-85 point title winner season.
Think realistically this is what we need to hope for. Never mind us, it would make the league a bit more exciting if there was the potential for a few more twists and turns, the City march last half / third of the season is tiresome now.
Calafiori is a big addition, its an area arsenal have lacked in last 2 seasons due to zinchenko not being good enough. Also Timber is back, who will contribute to attack massively. We just lack a proper striker, but it's hard to get them in market as all of them are overpriced, keeping Jesus fit will be key.
Agreed on the team dynamics and that you can build a good team without a player like that.
However the MSN Barcelona had the greatest player of all time, who's also one of the greatest creators of all time, as well as at least 4 other all-timer players in the midfield and attack, and each of them would comfortably be the best player in the Premier League right now: Suárez, Neymar, Iniesta, Xavi. Not really a good example IMO.
Regarding your last paragraph, Arsenal have arleady shown that they don't need a Bruno/KDB type instead of Odegaard to be one of the best teams in the world, but I feel like you would be better off with one as your #10 instead of Odegaard, if you could find one...but like we've both said it's not the only way forward for you. You can further improve the already elite attack by adding a left winger, I agree. Would you take someone like Rodrygo or Leao to replace Martinelli as a starter?
That's mostly it I think. Assuming we are still getting Moreno.
Moreno is a fairly known entity. I think he is a decent although maybe unspectacular addition.
We still need that striker...still contend Isak would be perfect....slim chance of it happening.
The market for CFs stinks at the moment. Not sure there's a realistic option out there that's better than what the squad already has. I'd love to get Isak but there's no way Newcastle would let him go and there's no way arsenal could afford the fee they'd demand for him. The club tried to go the younger, needs development, more affordable route by going after Sesko and he declined. And then they flirted with nico williams and that led to nothing. Just not sure there's a great amount of value in those positions right now unfortunately.
I don't really mind not getting another CF. Trossard was great there as a false 9 imo. And Jesus can obviously be a difference maker on his day. I wouldn't mind just getting another RW because I don't want to see Reiss nelson there. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're scrapping that idea to Nwaneri minutes there too.
TLDR - Ideal world, we get a top class cf but it won't happen. Like the squad where it's at assuming they sign Merino.
I don't really mind not getting another CF. Trossard was great there as a false 9 imo. And Jesus can obviously be a difference maker on his day. I wouldn't mind just getting another RW because I don't want to see Reiss nelson there. But I wouldn't be surprised if they're scrapping that idea to Nwaneri minutes there too.
TLDR - Ideal world, we get a top class cf but it won't happen. Like the squad where it's at assuming they sign Merino.
I think another dynamic forward is the biggest missing piece to take the team to the next level. A variety of profiles could work because there is enough versatility in players like Havertz (who could play sometimes as a striker and sometimes as an 8), Jesus (who can play across the front line), and Martinelli (who could backup both wings if we got a top level LW that regularly started ahead of him).
The biggest issue is just finding a player good enough to push those players for a starting place or to at least rotate with them and not have the level drop that much. The market for attacking players is really dry this summer. We made attempts to sign maybe the three best attackers who might have been available (Isak, who looked like a possibility but then never really went on the market; Sesko, and Williams). At this point, I'm not sure what the club does. My sense is that Rodrygo will stay at least one more year at Real Madrid. I don't think Leao is leaving this year and I'm not sure he's a great culture fit for Arsenal as he has a bit of a reputation for low workrate and taking matches off. I think Sane might be a good solution as a third dynamic winger to rotate with Martinelli and Saka and who can play both sides equally well, especially given his history with Arteta and that he is going into his last contract year. But that seemed more likely when Bayern was looking like they might be adding multiple attackers this window, which doesn't seem to be happening with them missing out on Xavi, Olmo, and Doue. He also has a big salary that would need to come down to fit into our wage structure. So I'm not really sure what the club will do, if anything. The club's guiding ethos in the transfer market is that its better to sign nobody than to sign the wrong player that will block your ability to get the player you really want in a later window. But that works excellently when you're building and maybe not so well when you're competing at the very top and perhaps one player makes the 1-2 point difference between winning and losing a title.
This is just speculation but I think the other factor is that next summer looks like potentially a monster window for attacking players - Wirtz, Sesko, Openda, Khvaratshkelia, Williams, maybe Rodrygo, maybe Isak, maybe Leao. Lots of clubs will obviously be competing for that talent but its a lot better environment to try to make that really big addition to our forward line and my suspicion is that Arteta/Edu won't want to do anything this summer that precludes being able to compete for one of those types of players next summer.
I dont know if we were ever in the running (my guess is no)but I thought Olise would have been an amazing fit. Basically a quality option to cover a few positions. Probably would have insisted on being a starter but with the quantity of games we are going to be playing, he would have played a significant amount. We are a little short on attacking options I feel still.
People who think we 'wont perform' to the levels of last season need to realise our football is not random. Our defence went up a level in the second half of last season, we conceded 8 goals in the last 19 matches and were going entire games where we didn't allow the opposition a shot on goal. That form will carry into this season and Calafiori and Timber will be added to the mix.
Our positional play is high quality and Arteta has recruited players particular for their duel winning ability - players who can win the tackle, header ect. Were finishing 2nd minimum, and have a good chance at the title.
Fans who say we 'wont be as good' this year, are fans of clubs who have no faith in their own team/manager to improve, but desperately want to compete with Arsenal, and therefore pray Arsenal will come down to their level, all because they know they cant rise up more than a little bit.
Our positional play is high quality and Arteta has recruited players particular for their duel winning ability - players who can win the tackle, header ect. Were finishing 2nd minimum, and have a good chance at the title.
Fans who say we 'wont be as good' this year, are fans of clubs who have no faith in their own team/manager to improve, but desperately want to compete with Arsenal, and therefore pray Arsenal will come down to their level, all because they know they cant rise up more than a little bit.
I think it's more that it would require you to go for a third season in a row at an incredibly intense and high level when only one team has managed to do that in this modern era. I think you probably can do it but understand reservations from others.