I feel like this is, as the kids would say, a whole lot of cope. It's something that gets said by a small but vocal group of chronically online fans but I've never heard it from fans in real life. The years City was beating Liverpool to the title, I never heard Liverpool fans say "no one cares" or "it doesn't count", Liverpool fans I know were just as gutted not actually winning the league. Same with Arsenal fans last two years. Neither I, nor anyone I know in real life, just dismissed City winning as "no one cared". Arsenal fans cared because we didn't win the league and it was every bit as disappointing as not winning the league in 2002-03 or 2015-16. There's already an entire generation that's now come of age with City's success being ingrained and that won't change as the media focuses far more on Pep and City's domination than the charges against them and that will be the case until City are severely punished. I already see just almost as many City shirts here in Los Angeles as the traditional big three English teams so they are absolutely building a global fanbase slowly and will continue to do so unless they face severe punishment.
Arsenal - 2024/25
- Thread starter oneniltothearsenal
- Start date
I feel like this is, as the kids would say, a whole lot of cope. It's something that gets said by a small but vocal group of chronically online fans but I've never heard it from fans in real life. The years City was beating Liverpool to the title, I never heard Liverpool fans say "no one cares" or "it doesn't count", Liverpool fans I know were just as gutted not actually winning the league. Same with Arsenal fans last two years. Neither I, nor anyone I know in real life, just dismissed City winning as "no one cared". Arsenal fans cared because we didn't win the league and it was every bit as disappointing as not winning the league in 2002-03 or 2015-16. There's already an entire generation that's now come of age with City's success being ingrained and that won't change as the media focuses far more on Pep and City's domination than the charges against them and that will be the case until City are severely punished. I already see just almost as many City shirts here in Los Angeles as the traditional big three English teams so they are absolutely building a global fanbase slowly and will continue to do so unless they face severe punishment.
I actually think there's better chance of City being severely punished as they close in on your title count, as well as potentially pool's and even ours in the future, as the PL might not want a situation where its league becomes a "farmer's league."
You're generally right though. I've even seen some City fans creeping up in my smaller neighborhood with their shitty flags, too - and most younger people haven't had to deal with the times when they were truly irrelevant outside of their local rival status to a top club. The notion that their success doesn't matter is nothing more than cope, and it won't change unless they face actual punishments for their 115 charges.
The end justifies the means is what they will say and in the end it flat-out works. We do not generally distinguish how the club wins when you evaluate it over time, at least not for most. Memory fades and unless they are football historians, there is little attention paid if they mght have cheated a bit along the way. I have serious question marks over Chelsea's wins and I put asterisks on those as well, but there is little doubt their trophies have enhanced their global image and is now picking up a lot more fans because of it. They never reached the level of attention and "glory" City has, but still today we discuss Chelsea with higher expectations and profile than before(and they were definitely of higher profile than City). That is happening x5 for City. On top of it they have better players, and a manager who has to be considered at least among the best ever at this point. The fact was for us Arsenal fans, unless we share a general fear for the league or the game, we did not care until two seasons ago. We cared more about Chelsea until recently. That is something that is shared with most of the fans out there...there are very few who will think or remember that City cheated. In the meantime they will keep growing as a club....maybe in a fake way, but in the end it's still growth....revenue, reputation, fans, players, managers...all of it .
Every top 6 team supporters that have aspirations one day to see their team win again should care about City trophies.
I dont think relegation does much to hamper this trajectory by the way. They would be back the next year.
Every top 6 team supporters that have aspirations one day to see their team win again should care about City trophies.
I dont think relegation does much to hamper this trajectory by the way. They would be back the next year.
You can tell who the fossils are here when they dismiss Citys achievements. I have to echo with the previous posters that City will be recognised as the greatest PL team and Pep the greatest manager possibly ever. Nobody apart from the small minority of strong football fans will disagree here. I'm sure a few of you have kids or even grandkids - tell me, will the gen Z or gen Alpha give a toss? The future of humanity? The answer is no.
An asterisk is a small talking point, that's as far as it will go. Juventus are still recognised as a massive club despite the corruption, Real Madrid even with the conspiracies regarding favouritism, financial doping and even Spanish royal links (allegedly).
An asterisk is a small talking point, that's as far as it will go. Juventus are still recognised as a massive club despite the corruption, Real Madrid even with the conspiracies regarding favouritism, financial doping and even Spanish royal links (allegedly).
Juventus is a poor comparison, to be honest. I think you’re underestimating the potential impact of the prospective punishments they could receive. If they were relegated as a result of this, then their success will always be tarnished, particularly because they were a fairly irrelevant club immediately before the cheating began.
If it leads them to be expelled from the league, then it will have a massive impact on how their success will be perceived. I cannot believe anyone would suggest otherwise.
Unless the titles are taken away , there will be no long term impact. They'll be a permanent part of the record books. They'll still be the second most successful club in the PL era. Like @tinfish says, Juventus got relegated. What changed?
But what happened to Juventus does affect how some of their success is perceived. It’s referenced all the time (just like we are doing right now). The difference is that this particular period virtually covers all of City’s success.
I’ve never actually looked at a record book before.
The Juventus thing is referenced because they got relegated and lost titles etc. My premise was that this doesn't happen to City.
And as to this being "some" of the success of Juventus, I don't know. Have you really checked?
In my early years of following football all I knew is that they are one of the greats. I'd no idea whether in 1962 they were fined for transfer market shenanigans or something and I was not interested.
Of course, I'm not talking about a literal book.
Let's say none of the titles or points were taken away.
The next team to score 100 points, say in 2035 or something, would not be considered the first ever centurions. They would be the second. You and I would say "asterisk" under our breath or something. But the record remains.
The next team to get a treble would be the third to achieve this historic feat. And so on.
A lot of this relies on Manchester City getting back to the top again (assuming they are relegated, at least).
Agreed. But when have we seen the filthy rich just walk away after the first setback? Especially if it's to their reputation.
Unfortunately City’s success does mean a lot to many people, and the more they win the more harmful it will be to us.
Bingo, only taking trophies away has an impact.. the rest is very temporary in terms of a set-back. I don't see that happening personally but maybe I will be surprised. And they might even do it again. I certainly would not bet against it.
Juventus and Real Madrid are undeniably huge clubs, with rich histories and massive fanbases.
On the other hand, Manchester City might not have the same historical pedigree, but they're making waves in the present. My cousin and his 12-year-old friends on TikTok are obsessed with Erling Haaland and Manchester City, captivated by their wealth and current success. They don't care as much about the historic dominance of United or Liverpool, or the legends like Ferdinand and Keane.
People who argue that City isn’t a big club are often found in local pubs or Wetherspoons. The reality is that, regardless of any future setbacks or relegations, City’s achievements over the past decade will stand the test of time. Ten years from now, their treble-winning status will be recognized, the media won’t add any asterisks, and the general public will view them as a major force in football history.
Was my point
This should put much of the debate about our style of play in the 2nd half to rest..
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/s/HvjTsjEsKu
Next time any of our rivals go one man down before the 2nd half in the Etihad. you go one and play expansive football.
We've come a long way.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/s/HvjTsjEsKu
Next time any of our rivals go one man down before the 2nd half in the Etihad. you go one and play expansive football.
We've come a long way.
You can't possibly know that, and it the bolded is just a farcical prediction given how much scrutiny they are under now, with a real threat of serious punishment looming.
What are you waffling about here
Juventus were not a small club before cheating. Not the same.
Depends on the punishment. If they’re taken to the cleaners as they rightfully should be, then they would either lose titles or have their reputation and accordingly that of their titles seriously damaged. None of this is a “small talking point”.
For as much as City are spoken of highly right now they are also ridiculed for being a bunch of cheats. And that’s without the judgment - a damning judgment would absolutely deny their supposed glories in a serious and irreparable manner.
Don't forget, only a couple of seasons ago, we went down to ten men against City ourselves after a Xhaka sending off...end result, 5-0.
Like Arteta says, he'd be an idiot not to have learned from that.
Not quite sure about that part, but in general he's right. City might not be a traditional big club in terms of global fanbase, but they will be.
I live in Scotland, the only City shirt you'd see when I was growing up was the occasional Oasis fan. It's not like that any more. I support Arsenal, my 13 year old son now shares that same passion.
However, my mate is a Chelsea fan, his son of the same age now supports Man City. Judging by Facebook, I've an Arsenal supporting friend who moved away who's son does the same.
Now don't get me wrong, these aren't local supporters who have generations steeped in supporting an English team (all are Rangers supporters), but there's no doubt they'll pick up the younger generation who don't really care about a Drogba, an Henry, or a Roy Keane.
It's that old jibe about your grandchildren will be City fans, that's the bigger picture here. Would be great to see them severely punished but unfortunately the cynic in me just can't see that happening, or more importantly actually sticking.
'Fossils' is an interesting way of saying 'sane people'.
If it's a title between Arsenal-Liverpool-Man City then it's a no brainer for me to back Arsenal, as insufferable as they can be, they're the least worse of the 3 by far
It's cute that you expect that.
I actually don’t. Brown envelopes be brown enveloping.
Ask any football fan in Germany about City, and the answer will be dismissive and hostile because of their oil state funding, sportswashing, and financial cheating. Their footballing achievements will be way down in the list. Noone here considers City a great club, absolutely noone. They'll consider Pep a great manager, and consider money a great factor, but City as a club will rightly get no credit.
Wonder if we will see a 16 year old in goal for us today. If Raya cannot start, I don't even expect him on the bench. I hope whatever he has isn't serious. Neto is cup tied and Setford has fitness issues. Who will be on the bench? Pretty much means to me we will see Saliba and Gabriel in this one?
Drivel.
The next man up GK is more likely to be Brian Okonkwo, who has started most games in net for the U21s. He is Arthur’s brother I believe. But I think it’ll be Raya unless he is truly hurt.
My guess is that one of Saliba or Gabriel will start in defense alongside Kiwior, MLS, and Nichols. Zinchenko and Tomiyasu being hurt is a (familiar) problem.
Juve and Madrid already had/have huge fanbases to just keep going like they have all along. If City get the punishment they deserve, they won't have that luxury, all their new fans who let's be honest are mostly kids, will just move on to a bigger team like Madrid or Barca or just whoever Haaland goes and plays for.
I appear to be wrong about the GK. 16 year old in net…that should be interesting. Hopefully he doesn’t have too much to do.
Wonder if we do slightly stronger to protect him a little?
As soon as United start challenging City again all these "these titles don't mean anything" will start to suddenly mean a lot when City cheat and pipe you to a title by 2 points or a close fight. Unless their titles are stripped it doesn't matter. Noone will remember their cheating in 50 years. All that will matter is the wins.
Anyhow as far as we are concerned, we need Odegaard back as soon as possible or for Arteta to trust Nwaneri at some point. Otherwise our creativity looks dire.
Anyhow as far as we are concerned, we need Odegaard back as soon as possible or for Arteta to trust Nwaneri at some point. Otherwise our creativity looks dire.
That's why I kind of figure we will see our first choice defense. Need to protect this kid a bit
We cannot play the way we have been for too long. We are not scoring a lot but it's the overall attacking play or lack thereof that concerns me. We have overall a whole month or more to play without Odegaard....we have to find something that works.
That poor kid is going to sh*t himself on every corner
There sould be enough old heads to put around him and get a result before he has anything meaningful to do.
That poor kid is going to sh*t himself on every corner
There sould be enough old heads to put around him and get a result before he has anything meaningful to do.
Looking at Transfermarkt he has only played six matches at U18 level and one at U21 level, another five matches for England U16s or U17s. This kid is as green as they come.
Wait, all this talk of dark arts, and yet the players that went down supposedly time wasting are actually injured?
Yeah, its nonsense. Raya was hurt and limping around the pitch, Timber was forced off and we had to replace him with a 17-year-old when trying to hold a lead, Opta says that overall the ball was in play longer in that half than in the second half of any other PL match this year. Some "dark arts."