You only need to be proven guilty of something for you to get the consequences, they don't need to be proven innocent.
Antony under investigation by Brazilian authorities for domestic abuse | Inquiries ended | Back in the squad
- Thread starter laughtersassassin
- Start date
Is that true?
Even if so it's a larger percentage of a smaller number.
None of which alters the real figures of 1.7 million women being the victims of domestic abuse.
My initial point, that you took issue with was that this number dwarfs the number of men abused and falsely accused.
The false accusations is what the discussion was about befure you took umbrage.
Google it?
Ok, definitely agree with the bolded.
My definition of spineless here is being unable to make a decisive decision, good or bad (if you can place labels then fine but this is more fluid IMO). You can make a good decision and still be spineless if how you make that decision is indecisive or forced.
I had you as more of a deontologist
Mill is alongside Marx for me.
I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??
Licensed medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues they work on regardless in most circumstances by law...
He should be shown the door regardless as we rightly did with Greenwood. There is no smoke without fire.
Sure Greenwood was an exceptional case, but I'm talking more in general. And it's not just about criminal offenses. People expecting football clubs or footballers to do the "right thing" ( Henderson going to Saudi after expressing support for homosexual rights as an example) is not something I understand. These people are in it for the profit and money. If you believe there is anything more to it then it's your fault.
No reasonable person should expect any morality from football clubs or footballers. Support them for their on pitch skills but that's about it.
The Greenwood case has created a precedent by which an inherently immoral entity is now trying to follow a moral path, but they will have to pick and choose where to apply those morals. It will lead to only one thing, as you put it- a mess.
Allegedly it was a club’s employee who was called to the scene. If true then this doesn’t look good for the club as it’s not on the club’s employee to treat players’ significant others. They should’ve called an ambulance.
That's potentially part of the problem though isn't it? United doctors were aware that something had happened (at the very least they knew about the injuries) months ago, and you'd imagine that they'd report it to their superiors. The club are very close and connected to these incidents, one way or the other.
They are duty-bound to report suspicions if someone is abused.
This case like Mason's is a mess.
Yeah this is the bit that puts doubt in my mind. The club aren’t covering up fecking domestic abuse as if they’re mafia doctors.
Maybe it is and we are dickheads
Seems like fishing by the lawyer to get a payday. Nobody can't be that stupid to cover anything up.
Could a club really try to cover this up? I mean, if all we care about is money, it would certainly be tempting – reading that Sports Witness post – it's certainly quite detailed and names people who would be key witnesses – therefore, I'm concerned that there could be something in it.
I mean, we've just signed him for 95 million euros not 5 months ago, and now we potentially have exactly the same issue which caused us to sign him in the first place. For me, that could be a motive to do something as stupid as trying to hush this up or willfully ignore the situation.
Also, "covering up" could mean not going to the authorities to report what happened and turning a blind eye. All speculation of course but not entirely out there to be dismissed out of hand.
Another thing that I thought of just now: Ste Howson, yesterday in one of his videos, alluded to the fact that; stuff gets covered up all the time. He specifically mentioned a case where a United player drove through someone's living room whilst under the influence and that got covered up.
I mean, we've just signed him for 95 million euros not 5 months ago, and now we potentially have exactly the same issue which caused us to sign him in the first place. For me, that could be a motive to do something as stupid as trying to hush this up or willfully ignore the situation.
Also, "covering up" could mean not going to the authorities to report what happened and turning a blind eye. All speculation of course but not entirely out there to be dismissed out of hand.
Another thing that I thought of just now: Ste Howson, yesterday in one of his videos, alluded to the fact that; stuff gets covered up all the time. He specifically mentioned a case where a United player drove through someone's living room whilst under the influence and that got covered up.
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I lose sense of the point you are trying to make.
If there are suspicions of certain crimes I think they are obliged to report it. I'm not positive.
Obviously executioner is meant metaphorically, no one is saying Antony will die. But. If this investigation goes on, say, another year, over in Brazil, before charges are eventually dropped (obviously hypothetical). What percentage of football fans do you think will be of the view: Oh yes, Antony had that mess with the accusation, but that was all cleared up, now we'll just forget that ever happened. Because currently these charges stick at the point of allegation, and are rarely cleared up in the public discource.
For the best example, see Amanda Knox. Her name is still associated with a horrific murder she had no part in, because the media narrative sticks.
For the justice system to truly be the arbiter here, the allegations, evidence and all should not be aired in the media. We should really be hearing about it once the verdict is passed down by officials, at which point it's fine for the public to form an opinion.
Instead, the media is forming an opinion right now. The club and the player are both receiving massive negative coverage in the media before a single official process has even started investigating anything. And I believe that's wrong, and potentially dangerous precedent. Because make no mistake, the club will be forced to take one of two actions here:
1. Respond to public scrutiny by saying there's an official investigation and any footballing decision will be made after that concludes. This will result in the twitter mob continuing to demand Antony is banned until such conclusion.
2. Bench Antony for unknowable period of time pending the outcome of the official investigation. Which will obviously damage his career, the club's chances of success and still won't be enough for many in the public sphere, certainly those most vocal in the media.
Because the victim has decided to do this in public, the club and player are damned either way.
As far as I'm concerned Mendy was innocent. Degenerate yes, but rapist no.
is OJ innocent?
As soon as it was reported that United's club doctors had treated her after an alleged attack, it was fairly clear that there was a risk United would be accused of helping Antony keep things "in-house" by having their employees treat her.
And something that would help the club ballast itself from such allegation would be not having been roundly criticised for a botched and tone-deaf mishandling of another abuse allegation weeks prior. As well as being (to a lesser extent) criticised for their approach to some allegations surrounding Ronaldo/Giggs.
There are consequences to that sort of self-inflicted reputational damage and one of them is that people are not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to your handling of these situations.
And something that would help the club ballast itself from such allegation would be not having been roundly criticised for a botched and tone-deaf mishandling of another abuse allegation weeks prior. As well as being (to a lesser extent) criticised for their approach to some allegations surrounding Ronaldo/Giggs.
There are consequences to that sort of self-inflicted reputational damage and one of them is that people are not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to your handling of these situations.
Not sure why that matters
I'm not referring to Mendy's case specifically, but a lot of people are being absolutist about the justice system. We know guilty people walk free all the time, so why should the justice system be the sole metric by which someone forms their opinion about someone's guilt or innocence?
"I don't care about the images, video or audio, he was not convicted so for me he's innocent" is a silly position to have.
Again, not referring to any case specific, but in general.
There is, as of now, zero direct evidence that we know of. This is not at all equivalent to the Greenwood situation.
How come United have to bow down to media and public scrutiny?
Chelsea had Alonso in their team for years. Partey was still being selected for Arsenal, whilst under rape allegations less than a year ago.
Chelsea had Alonso in their team for years. Partey was still being selected for Arsenal, whilst under rape allegations less than a year ago.
This.
Isn't she mainly known for being wrongfully accused?
How do you apply this non-absolutist policy though? It then becomes arbitrary. Laws or the justice system are by no means perfect. But they are the least worse of the available options. In an age where pretty much anything can be doctored, if there is nothing that needs to be proven in the court of law, then how do we decide who to believe?
If it’s a lie or exaggerated then it could be a way to cover up the fact she didn’t get medical attention and doesn’t have a doctor to back her claims up. Oh United club doctors saw me and now they’re lying to cover for their their player.
I’d say we will know pretty soon since it’s a grave accusation for the club
This is a bit of a strawman.
I specifically referring to Mendy's case and the evidence that was revealed. A man's career was derailed by seemingly false allegations and somehow we are finding ways to talk around the injustice.
I guess helping her after she had been abused by Antony and not making any sort of reporting or anything like that is being argued as the club being complicit by the victim and her solicitor?
The news outlet that's carrying the story.
Quite significant in my opinion, as it's a very serious allegation.
Quite significant in my opinion, as it's a very serious allegation.
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Part of that has to do with the fact that United are still (regardless of what's happened on the pitch for about a decade now) a significantly bigger club than either Chelsea or Arsenal. The media attention/scrutiny is not on the same scale.
Also, you did what the media can't do with regard to the Arsenal player: name him.
The United doctor bit was part of what was leaked on June 6, and it did strike me as a potential f*ck up. But yeah time will tell.
So depressing, whomever is to blame.
That's not how anything works.
Simple but very accurate post. A potential victim should be taken very seriously, I don't use the word believed but taken very seriously. If enough evidence is available and the victim is protected from manipulation (usually by the abuser) hopefully correct actions would be taken going forward.
He should be shown the door regardless for being quite shit at football.
This baggage, if it sticks, simply serves as a big extra reason to chuck him out.
This baggage, if it sticks, simply serves as a big extra reason to chuck him out.