[Ayoba]

It not just the transfer fee for me, I dont care about that. Its just that he's an average winger, offers absolutely nothing to our attack.

 

[lex talionis]

Grave concern is now fully warranted. Antony did sport a right-footed cross at one point, but was otherwise predictable and ineffective with the ball. Start him v Spurs but if drops another turd I wouldn't mind seeing Pellistri get the start.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

He was better than Rashford and Garnacho on Monday, by some distance as well.

 

[SirScholes]

He was better than Rashford and Garnacho on Monday, by some distance as well.

But both are monumentally better than he is in general, I trust rashford to have a good campaign, garnacho is still young and likely will develop, Antony just played the same standard he normally serves up , underwhelming becoming his par

 

[SirScholes]

He has 2 open-play goals in 63 PL appearances. You would lose your shit if he played here.

And 11 assists how did Antony get on last year

 

[FerociousCorgis]

if only he could deliver on the end product id be very happy with him. Just seems to not have that final play n him yet. Hopefully he works on it and starts to click. Will hold out hope until i see him with a proper CF at least.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

And 11 assists how did Antony get on last year

So Elise in 63 games has 2 goals and 11 assists. Antony in 47 games last season had 10 goals and 5 assists.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

But both are monumentally better than he is in general, I trust rashford to have a good campaign, garnacho is still young and likely will develop, Antony just played the same standard he normally serves up , underwhelming becoming his par

Garnacho is not better, but he will be at the same age. Garnacho is no where near ready to even start games for us. Rashford is obviously better but come on how can you write a player off after one season at the club. He is still only 23 and has a few years before he hits his prime.

 

[Grande]

And the performance before that and before that? We have seen our players play before, nobody is silly enough to make definitive statements based on one game.

Do you find Antony’s performance to be out of character or something?

Are you really willing to swear that nobody here makes silly statements based (to an irrational degree) by one game? This is not my impression reading through the player thread before and after the Woves game.

 

[Grande]

It’s not lazy, it’s straightforward and to me, common sense. You say discussion should be limited to performance only, yet performance itself is measured against expectations.

A player being considered to have ‘played well’ is subjective and dependent on various factors. The performances of Garnacho last season were widely praised, yet they were praised within a particular context of him being 18 and debuting. Ultimately, if he was 27 and cost 100m - do you think it reasonable for the fact that he is 27 and cost 100m to be disregarded and for his performances to be praised in the same way, because ‘measured as if he were 18 and free, he’d be doing well’?

Antony cost 100m, is a full international for a country famed for producing world class forwards, is 23, not 19. These are the factors in which influence perception of performances. Antony will be judged based on his fee, and I imagine he would also be played based on his fee so works both ways. The club will invest time in him getting it right whereas if he cost less he’d have probably lost his place to Pellistri by now.

Sure, I agree, evaluating performances is based on expectations. Still, expectations can be more or less reasonable. I always wanted players with dark curly hair and space cadette sounding name to be successful, and so was deeply disappointed by Giuliano Maiorana and Jon Spector’s performances. If you havent seen much of Pogba, Maguire or Antony, and all you know about them are the pricea somebody chose to pay for them, hell, I understand that you build expectations from that (allthough, after Pogba and Maguire, maybe one should have learnt something about transfer prices and expectations by the time Antony arrives?). But when you see them play, you should at some point begin to understand that in many cases, the purchase price is not a good measure for expectations. To put it bluntly, if you are disappointed in the same way for 38 Sundays in a row, you are incredibly slow to learn (not you specifically, a general form of you). People tailoring their expectations of Antony on the €95m price of last August, they don’t follow Man Utd that closely, or they are slow to learn, or they are lazy in their reference points. They should know by now that Arnold/Murtaugh/Ten Hag paid a price artificially increased by the situation back then. They should by now have a lot of relevant reference points for their expectations. If they still expect Antony to put in a right footed cross because we paid €95m for him in Aug, 2022, they are not thinking things through, I claim. They know better by now, if they are honest.

Also, if Antony is our best attacking player in a game where Garnacho and Rashford plays, he is our best attacking player in that game regardless of wether the two others came through the academy. We can’t just keep saying ‘No Rashford was fantastic, when you think about what he cost when he came from Fletcher Moss’. (Tbf, nobody has said that.)

Transfer prices are relevant to the buying acumen of the brass, and the transfer strategy going forward. It’s just very seldom relevant to judging a player’s performances once they are here. I’m sure you can describe Varane’s last game just fine without refering to his transfer fee.

 

[Rozay]

Sure, I agree, evaluating performances is based on expectations. Still, expectations can be more or less reasonable. I always wanted players with dark curly hair and space cadette sounding name to be successful, and so was deeply disappointed by Giuliano Maiorana and Jon Spector’s performances. If you havent seen much of Pogba, Maguire or Antony, and all you know about them are the pricea somebody chose to pay for them, hell, I understand that you build expectations from that (allthough, after Pogba and Maguire, maybe one should have learnt something about transfer prices and expectations by the time Antony arrives?). But when you see them play, you should at some point begin to understand that in many cases, the purchase price is not a good measure for expectations. To put it bluntly, if you are disappointed in the same way for 38 Sundays in a row, you are incredibly slow to learn (not you specifically, a general form of you). People tailoring their expectations of Antony on the €95m price of last August, they don’t follow Man Utd that closely, or they are slow to learn, or they are lazy in their reference points. They should know by now that Arnold/Murtaugh/Ten Hag paid a price artificially increased by the situation back then. They should by now have a lot of relevant reference points for their expectations. If they still expect Antony to put in a right footed cross because we paid €95m for him in Aug, 2022, they are not thinking things through, I claim. They know better by now, if they are honest.

Also, if Antony is our best attacking player in a game where Garnacho and Rashford plays, he is our best attacking player in that game regardless of wether the two others came through the academy. We can’t just keep saying ‘No Rashford was fantastic, when you think about what he cost when he came from Fletcher Moss’. (Tbf, nobody has said that.)

Transfer prices are relevant to the buying acumen of the brass, and the transfer strategy going forward. It’s just very seldom relevant to judging a player’s performances once they are here. I’m sure you can describe Varane’s last game just fine without refering to his transfer fee.

None of this changes anything. When all is said and done, you will determine whether a performance, or a player in general has been a disappointment or not. Because Antony cost 95m, every performance where he offers no more than a player worth significantly less is a disappointment. If that performance was not from him, it may not be considered as so.

Otherwise, how do you determine whether a signing was a success or not? For the most part of his time here, Pogba was amongst our best players, if not our best at times, yet he was overall considered a disappointment by most. That is, a disappointment for Pogba. Not by McTominay’s standards.

Nobody is expecting Antony to put in right foot crosses, nobody is expecting him to do almost anything useful, and that is simply because people consider him a disappointment. Every game where he confirms that he is actually a 30/40m player is not some sort of new benchmark he now has, it is simply further testament and the latest example of the disappointment that he is. Contrary to your implication, it is not and will never be okay for him to be an average player, and that is firstly due to his price tag, and secondly due to the fact that he’s a footballer who plays (regularly) for Manchester United at all.

 

[Blood Mage]

His one-footedness is the main issue. I would honestly prefer to see him on the left.

However singling him out for criticism is pointless since our problems are mainly tactical at the moment, ETH needs to change the system.

 

[Still Going…]

His one-footedness is the main issue. I would honestly prefer to see him on the left.

However singling him out for criticism is pointless since our problems are mainly tactical at the moment, ETH needs to change the system.

I’ve sometimes wondered if he might be better on the left of a narrow midfield, but I think I’m just bullshitting myself. He’s got some of those attributes and I think he could do higher volume short passing.

…like with most of our signings, because he’s a failure I’m hoping there could be some other way to use him. I’d rather we just signed better players.

I’m close to giving up on him. I can see the attributes he has, some of them are even admirable, but it’s what he doesn’t have that worries me. I want to see him a run of good games and it needs to soon for me to not put him with the Pogbas, Maguires, Schneiderlins…

 

[Red in STL]

None of this changes anything. When all is said and done, you will determine whether a performance, or a player in general has been a disappointment or not. Because Antony cost 95m, every performance where he offers no more than a player worth significantly less is a disappointment. If that performance was not from him, it may not be considered as so.

Otherwise, how do you determine whether a signing was a success or not? For the most part of his time here, Pogba was amongst our best players, if not our best at times, yet he was overall considered a disappointment by most. That is, a disappointment for Pogba. Not by McTominay’s standards.

Nobody is expecting Antony to put in right foot crosses, nobody is expecting him to do almost anything useful, and that is simply because people consider him a disappointment. Every game where he confirms that he is actually a 30/40m player is not some sort of new benchmark he now has, it is simply further testament and the latest example of the disappointment that he is. Contrary to your implication, it is not and will never be okay for him to be an average player, and that is firstly due to his price tag, and secondly due to the fact that he’s a footballer who plays (regularly) for Manchester United at all.

Pogba was a disappointment because of his attitude not because of what he cost, he has then ability but couldn't be arsed half the time

 

[Grande]

None of this changes anything. When all is said and done, you will determine whether a performance, or a player in general has been a disappointment or not. Because Antony cost 95m, every performance where he offers no more than a player worth significantly less is a disappointment. If that performance was not from him, it may not be considered as so.

Otherwise, how do you determine whether a signing was a success or not? For the most part of his time here, Pogba was amongst our best players, if not our best at times, yet he was overall considered a disappointment by most. That is, a disappointment for Pogba. Not by McTominay’s standards.

Nobody is expecting Antony to put in right foot crosses, nobody is expecting him to do almost anything useful, and that is simply because people consider him a disappointment. Every game where he confirms that he is actually a 30/40m player is not some sort of new benchmark he now has, it is simply further testament and the latest example of the disappointment that he is. Contrary to your implication, it is not and will never be okay for him to be an average player, and that is firstly due to his price tag, and secondly due to the fact that he’s a footballer who plays (regularly) for Manchester United at all.

I think you use language in a way confusing to me. Disappointment is to me a feeling, not a personal attribute. A person is not a disappointment, that’s a slur, and quite a bad one if you don’t mind my opinion on that. Neither is a person a signing, a signing is an act made by a club, and to conflate the two creates further misunderstandings IMO. When people talk about Rashfords unimpressive game vs Wolves, they are not talking about a signing, neither are they positively surprised that an almost free player did so well compared to Wolves more expensive defenders. It would be silly, and irrelevant to the game.

The signing of Pogba was disappointing, when measured by his output and market return. I have no problems assesing Pogba as a player regardless of that, and neither have you: as you said, a few seasons, he was one of our better players, and one of PL’s best midfielders for periods. I enjoyed watching him play then, and was not disappointed when he was MOTM without playing like the worlds best player. Pogba disappointed me later as a player, because it was evident he played below his capability, and at times even unlotivqted, and it was disappointing when he didn’t learn to protect or pass the ball in midfield, because must players can learn that in time. And it was disappointing when he soured and wanted out. The signing was a disappointment because he left for free twice and was bought for a record fee in between. Woodward owns that disappointment for me, not Pogba, and I learned not to expect world record performances from Pogba because I, well, I learned. If you expect Antony to play like €95m on any given Sunday, that’s on you, but I don’t see why you would. He’s not at that level now, you should learn from experience accept that fact IMO, I have, and Iam truly not disappointed when he has a good performance by his standards and the standards of the game. Which he didn’t on Monday, nor did anyone else bar Onana and Wan Bissaka.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Grave concern is now fully warranted. Antony did sport a right-footed cross at one point, but was otherwise predictable and ineffective with the ball. Start him v Spurs but if drops another turd I wouldn't mind seeing Pellistri get the start.

No reason to start him. 4 midfielders, rashford and sancho up front. Put on garnacho towards the end.

 

[sherrinford]

I’ve sometimes wondered if he might be better on the left of a narrow midfield, but I think I’m just bullshitting myself. He’s got some of those attributes and I think he could do higher volume short passing.

…like with most of our signings, because he’s a failure I’m hoping there could be some other way to use him. I’d rather we just signed better players.

I’m close to giving up on him. I can see the attributes he has, some of them are even admirable, but it’s what he doesn’t have that worries me. I want to see him a run of good games and it needs to soon for me to not put him with the Pogbas, Maguires, Schneiderlins…

He can be used in his current position and still be used in a different way. I often feel people here are too focused on positions when talking about how to get the best out of players. Antony seems to be our primary provider of width and penetration on the right side and it doesn't particularly play to his strengths.

 

[troylocker]

So Elise in 63 games has 2 goals and 11 assists. Antony in 47 games last season had 10 goals and 5 assists.

For us the numbers were 8g/3a in 44 games which is, just like Olise's numbers, too bad for a winger at a top club. Not even close actually.

 

[Borys]

He has 2 open-play goals in 63 PL appearances. You would lose your shit if he played here.

Are we going to ignore his assists?
Olise 0.43G+A/90' compared to 0,3 for Antony. He got better numbers even if he had worse xG+xAG (0,38 for Olise vs 0,47 for Antony). Maybe playing for Crystal Palace doesn't put you in that many promising occasions than for United/Chelsea, I guess we will find out soon enough.

The funniest thing is Olise has much better defensive stats than Antony.

 

[Putting all banter aside]

He was better than Rashford and Garnacho on Monday, by some distance as well.

I didn't see it and can't fathom how we can talk in terms of 'better' after that game. They were all three immeasurably shit.

In the stats discussion versus other wingers I find assists for his position way more interesting than goals. 2 assists in 26 PL performances so far tells the story about his final product being non-existent.

 

[Ish]

There was a moment where he turned the defender around the halfway line with a great bit of skill....and instead of going running down the wing to exploit the space, he immediately turned back trying to beat the same defender again, and iirc, he lost the ball. Sums up why hes frustrating.

I had him down as someone who will kick on and go up a level this season....and i really hope he does.

 

[SirScholes]

So Elise in 63 games has 2 goals and 11 assists. Antony in 47 games last season had 10 goals and 5 assists.

The league is 38 games mate

 

[SirScholes]

Garnacho is not better, but he will be at the same age. Garnacho is no where near ready to even start games for us. Rashford is obviously better but come on how can you write a player off after one season at the club. He is still only 23 and has a few years before he hits his prime.

Because you can tell the decision making and quality of his passes when it really matters is pretty disappointing
When garnacho gets the ball I’m thinking something could happen, he makes defenders worry
When Antony gets the ball I’m already thinking when is he going to turn around play it back to the defenders who gives it to shaw who gives it to garnacho or whoever is playing left wing

wish It was different but does not threaten at all, what’s the point in having a winger that doesn’t assist or score

 

[El Jefe]

Still can't believe EtH sanctioned this move so vehemently. I get managers like Moyes and Rodgers bringing over Fellaini and Allen when they got their big moves. They'd never managed big players or competed in big European competition so their perspective of a top player is limited.

Ten Hag has coached at Bayern and Ajax and competed in the CL, how the feck did he think Antony was good enough. He wasn't even a top 5 player under him at Ajax.

People can talk about settling in periods, lack of RB and striker etc. The issue with Antony is very simple in my opinion, he just doesnt have the ability or talent for ManUtd. He's someone I see having a similar career to Lamela or Suso, that's his level.

Putting faith in him is futile. Every game he proves he's just not of the required quality.

 

[SirScholes]

Still can't believe EtH sanctioned this move so vehemently. I get managers like Moyes and Rodgers bringing over Fellaini and Allen when they got their big moves. They'd never managed big players or competed in big European competition so their perspective of a top player is limited.

Ten Hag has coached at Bayern and Ajax and competed in the CL, how the feck did he think Antony was good enough. He wasn't even a top 5 player under him at Ajax.

People can talk about settling in periods, lack of RB and striker etc. The issue with Antony is very simple in my opinion, he just doesnt have the ability or talent for ManUtd. He's someone I see having a similar career to Lamela or Suso, that's his level.

Putting faith in him is futile. Every game he proves he's just not of the required quality.

Agreed
A good winger will still get assist with a poor striker
Just simply because he’ll keep creating chances
Our young danish striker is going to find it hard with zero service

 

[aeh1991]

Still can't believe EtH sanctioned this move so vehemently. I get managers like Moyes and Rodgers bringing over Fellaini and Allen when they got their big moves. They'd never managed big players or competed in big European competition so their perspective of a top player is limited.

Ten Hag has coached at Bayern and Ajax and competed in the CL, how the feck did he think Antony was good enough. He wasn't even a top 5 player under him at Ajax.

People can talk about settling in periods, lack of RB and striker etc. The issue with Antony is very simple in my opinion, he just doesnt have the ability or talent for ManUtd. He's someone I see having a similar career to Lamela or Suso, that's his level.

Putting faith in him is futile. Every game he proves he's just not of the required quality.

Totally agree. I can't believe we spent so much money on him. There's a big difference to Sancho who seems to have a lot of talent but is unable to bring them on the pitch due to laziness / weak mentality (although imo he's been much better recently and must start as RW). Antony just lacks quality. He is a very limited wing forward who would probably be good enough for a midtable team, but not for United. Maybe they thought a RW was needed after the MG incident but still, for that money you could have signed so many other wing forwards who are significantly better. Imagine we had someone like Saka on the right side. We would look so much stronger. Ten Hag is too biased on this one.

 

[DesiAce83]

You can't really judge him after that game against Wolves. All the teams are going to press our defenders until the ball gets to Wan Bissaka and his going to play it down the line to Antony. More often than not, this allowed two Wolves players to press Antony - there are only a handful of players who can dribble past two players every time.

We need Dalot to play to judge Antony properly.

 

[Jeffthered]

So Elise in 63 games has 2 goals and 11 assists. Antony in 47 games last season had 10 goals and 5 assists.

Such debates are silly, and highlight a strange data-driven approach to looking at players.

Who is a better football player? Elise or Antony? Do you think Antony could have the same impact at Crystal Palace as Elise? And do you think Elise would be as average as Antony at Old Trafford?

The answer's are obvious. Obvious. So, very, obvious.

Yet, as is the way it seems (note Martial, Depay etc...) some fans refuse to accept the obvious. These are limited players. It happens.

 

[Matt851]

None of this changes anything. When all is said and done, you will determine whether a performance, or a player in general has been a disappointment or not. Because Antony cost 95m, every performance where he offers no more than a player worth significantly less is a disappointment. If that performance was not from him, it may not be considered as so.

Otherwise, how do you determine whether a signing was a success or not? For the most part of his time here, Pogba was amongst our best players, if not our best at times, yet he was overall considered a disappointment by most. That is, a disappointment for Pogba. Not by McTominay’s standards.

Nobody is expecting Antony to put in right foot crosses, nobody is expecting him to do almost anything useful, and that is simply because people consider him a disappointment. Every game where he confirms that he is actually a 30/40m player is not some sort of new benchmark he now has, it is simply further testament and the latest example of the disappointment that he is. Contrary to your implication, it is not and will never be okay for him to be an average player, and that is firstly due to his price tag, and secondly due to the fact that he’s a footballer who plays (regularly) for Manchester United at all.

He isn't even a £35m player when compared with olise's release clause

 

[Redstain]

The problem with Antony is not Antony. The problem is that the club have signed a young footballer with no league experience and thrust him into the first team with next to no competition for his position. Antony should be playing behind someone of his position at this period in his development. It's no different to Hojlund if he doesn't hit the ground running, the talented promise he demonstrated at his previous club ends up diminished and the players value goes down, loses confidence and now he's deemed to have failed at the club. That is a trend that follows this club because the players aren't acquired with time to adjust.

City sign Grealish and he has time to be nurtured. The same happened for Foden when there was criticism he wasn't playing enough. We saw with Garnacho in the last game these young players need time in such a competitive league and playing environment. Antony is a good player but he's not first team quality for a club looking to potentially challenge at this stage of his career. The issue is compounded by right backs who don't offer any threat going forward.

 

[Matt851]

He had enough games with dalot last season to judge him, and his performance level was exactly the same as against wolves

You can't really judge him after that game against Wolves. All the teams are going to press our defenders until the ball gets to Wan Bissaka and his going to play it down the line to Antony. More often than not, this allowed two Wolves players to press Antony - there are only a handful of players who can dribble past two players every time.

We need Dalot to play to judge Antony properly.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The problem with Antony is not Antony. The problem is that the club have signed a young footballer with no league experience and thrust him into the first team with next to no competition for his position. Antony should be playing behind someone of his position at this period in his development. It's no different to Hojlund if he doesn't hit the ground running, the talented promise he demonstrated at his previous club ends up diminished and the players value goes down, loses confidence and now he's deemed to have failed at the club. That is a trend that follows this club because the players aren't acquired with time to adjust.

City sign Grealish and he has time to be nurtured. The same happened for Foden when there was criticism he wasn't playing enough. We saw with Garnacho in the last game these young players need time in such a competitive league and playing environment. Antony is a good player but he's not first team quality for a club looking to potentially challenge at this stage of his career. The issue is compounded by right backs who don't offer any threat going forward.

At least wait until a few games in mate, AWB got the assist and Antony was ok first half in a general dog shite showing from the team. If anything our right flank was the least rubbish part of the team against Wolves.

He needs to improve on last season and I think he will. Let's see how we look with Rasmus up top and hopefully the CM setup sorted.

 

[zaafi]

Are we going to ignore his assists?
Olise 0.43G+A/90' compared to 0,3 for Antony. He got better numbers even if he had worse xG+xAG (0,38 for Olise vs 0,47 for Antony). Maybe playing for Crystal Palace doesn't put you in that many promising occasions than for United/Chelsea, I guess we will find out soon enough.

The funniest thing is Olise has much better defensive stats than Antony.

Assists isn't all that when you never score as a winger. The front three is where the majority of goals should come from. You wouldn't be happy with Rashford if he scored 2 goals and had 11 assists in a season.

 

[Borys]

Assists isn't all that when you never score as a winger. The front three is where the majority of goals should come from. You wouldn't be happy with Rashford if he scored 2 goals and had 11 assists in a season.

It isn't but using goals scored ONLY is also not a right approach. For any attacking player goal contributions matter. Olise playing for Crystal Palace has better goal contributions than Antony. Simple.

 

[buckooo1978]

Think given issues vrs Wolves we might well see Bruno on the right V Spurs

Antony needs to be more productive - simple as that

not his fault he was bought for such a crazy fee but he needs to work on his decision making and hopefully we will see a bit more productivity

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Think given issues vrs Wolves we might well see Bruno on the right V Spurs

Antony needs to be more productive - simple as that

not his fault he was bought for such a crazy fee but he needs to work on his decision making and hopefully we will see a bit more productivity

What issues? If it’s attacking prowess just put Sancho there. If it’s defensive effort then Antony is fine. I’d prefer Bruno in the middle.

 

[buckooo1978]

What issues? If it’s attacking prowess just put Sancho there. If it’s defensive effort then Antony is fine. I’d prefer Bruno in the middle.

I'm thinking we might see Ericksen or possibly even McTominay drafted into our midfield and Bruno shunted right

I agree that Bruno is better than the middle but the balance wasn't right, we are away from home and I think he will try and add another body in there more inclined to sit deeper

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm thinking we might see Ericksen or possibly even McTominay drafted into our midfield and Bruno shunted right

I agree that Bruno is better than the middle but the balance wasn't right, we are away from home and I think he will try and add another body in there more inclined to sit deeper

I really wouldn’t like to see us become overly pragmatic. It’s Spurs not City after all. The likes of Bruno should be able to adjust from the AM position than need to be moved out wide. Some middle ground hopefully between what you propose and the everyone go forward approach we saw on Monday

 

[philippexyz]

Wonder how long will ETH stick with him on the right wing. If(When) he will admit the mistake. I hope not until eventual, currently unlikely sacking.

 

[Lynty]

He's got the tools - just needs to make everything click