[Santoryo]

His mojo is back. Playing with good confidence. One on one, there isn't anyone in our team more clinical than Martial.

Mata

Edit: You might actually be onto something. I know Mata for being clinical and lethal but I don't remember him much in 1 on 1 situations, but I can recall Martial in plenty 1 on 1 and he's bloody clinical.

So you're right I've seen Marticle in 1 on 1 situation but I don't have much recollections when it comes to Mata in those situations. But overall I think Mata is our most lethal finisher. The guy is precise.

 

[royboy16]

Is nice to be spoilt for choice in having AM or MR compete for the wide spot.

 

[Yagami]

I'm confident he'll start against Leicester.

I'm sure José will be sticking with the same formation which is fair enough. I won't complain either way as we're on a nice run so sticking with the same players is reasonable, but Martial, in my opinion, is our best attacker so for him to come into the starting XI would be great as well.

It's a nice situation to be in, though if I had to choose I'd have Martial replace Rashford against Leicester. Martial is the better player and having Marcus come on against tiring defences has worked a treat in the past, too.

 

[TheReligion]

Would it be a problem if the current situation, playing well but still a sub, continued all season?

He's getting 10 minutes week in week out, obviously. Those who are getting more, do not contribute more.

The only people who seem to be making a fuss about this are you lot from the Caf.

Not sure why we can't just enjoy how things are going at the moment and get behind the squad.

 

[FromTheBench]

It is a tough trade off between Rashford and Martial.

Rashford provides more energy which Martial lack in terms of chasing and harrying down opponents and constantly making runs into space.

 

[Rozay]

The only people who seem to be making a fuss about this are you lot from the Caf.

Not sure why we can't just enjoy how things are going at the moment and get behind the squad.

Well it will obviously take a lot for you to be 'sure why', given the reasons have been explained over and again.

Player selection has always, and will always be a topic of football discussion. A player perceived to be deserving of being in the team, and not being selected, will again, always attract discussion. If you still struggle to understand, it is possibly because you don't want to, because you do not want to see Martial starting (which your posts in this thread have suggested). Still, claiming ignorance is far-fetched, although still some form of concession from positions held before the season of Martial simply not deserving to play.

 

[Rozay]

It is a tough trade off between Rashford and Martial.

Rashford provides more energy which Martial lack in terms of chasing and harrying down opponents and constantly making runs into space.

Aye, Jon Walters does too.

 

[Soski]

Let's reward the players who get to come on against players with tired legs who are already losing and have to force a goal rather than the ones that have put in excellent shifts and got us into that position.

What are you talking about. Of course you reward players that come on and score\make goals and play well. If you put every good sub performance down to some shit players tiring them earlier....nobody would ever advance.......are you mental?

 

[Santoryo]

What are you talking about. Of course you reward players that come on and score\make goals and play well. If you put every good sub performance down to some shit players tiring them earlier....nobody would ever advance.......are you mental?

Don't bother.

 

[Mockney]

Agreed. Rashford 100% has the core technique to whip a good ball in and the time he's spending on set pieces can only help that. I'm very hopeful he'll get there.

That was the main thing that encouraged me about him last year. After the whole 'prodigy striker' thing had cooled down, the fact he seemed to have genuinely improved his all round game in things like crossing and set pieces was what I found most impressive, and indicative of him not being a mere zeitgeist flash in the pan. He can put in a great ball when he's on song, it's just his decision making that's lacking. Mata has great delivery but doesn't get to the byline whilst Martial is great at getting to the byline but doesn't have the delivery. If Rash can provide that missing combination, I think we'd be pretty set.

 

[Jaybomb]

Okay, Jose...over to you. He has 2 goals and an assist in 25 minutes of football. Prove that you don't play favourites and give hime 90 minutes in 2 consecutive games. Let Rashford or Mata try the super sub role.

Why fix what isn't broken? Bringing Martial on to terrorise tired defenders is actually a pretty decent tactic.

We shouldn't change it until we lose

 

[Dobbs]

The only people who seem to be making a fuss about this are you lot from the Caf.

Not sure why we can't just enjoy how things are going at the moment and get behind the squad.

I only asked you a question about your opinion of Martial's role going forward should he continue in this form.

You haven't answered, suggested I'm not enjoying the team and doubted my support of the squad.

Talk about overcomplicating a debate.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Would start him over Rashford in the next game. That's not to belittle what rashford does, of course. He runs at defences and tires them out, which may be one of the reasons why Martial has such an impact when he does come on. But 2 goals and one assist in 25 minutes of football, and the fact that he looks really hungry, warrants him a place in the starting 11 in my opinion.

Also think Martial is much more clinical than Rashford. I love Rashford but he can be extremely wasteful in front of goal. No doubt a great talent tough.

 

[RedFish]

Gorgeous goal today. Agree he should start over Rashfird Vs Leicester.

 

[In Rainbows]

Why fix what isn't broken? Bringing Martial on to terrorise tired defenders is actually a pretty decent tactic.

We shouldn't change it until we lose

You could have used that excuse for Rashford last season as that is what people thought he was best at.

 

[ti vu]

He's getting 10 minutes week in week out, obviously. Those who are getting more, do not contribute more.

It's only 2 weeks into the season.

I explained earlier in this or the other Martial thread that Rashford usage was all about tactic to provide width and work rate to keep balance. Rashford contributed more than Martial in the West Ham game despite Martial has been more productive. Rashford was meh vs Swansea game fulfilling his duty, but it's very clear how Martial was played different role when he was subbed on this game. Swansea was very compact in first half till they decided to gambled with their subs to change the system. Martial came on to exploit the space with Swansea being desperate & arguably involved more centrally in final third. So it's clearly Martial was used to kill Swansea off while Rashford was previously used to mainly to stretch play, which unlike vs West Ham, Rashford didn't play too well.

You could have used that excuse for Rashford last season as that is what people thought he was best at.

Key difference is Lukaku vs Zlatan. Zlatan doesn't have the space to keep offer the run in behind. Zlatan had to get involved more with link up which means, someone else needs to do the run. Rashford offers more in this department than Martial.

Now Lukaku is more than enough offer those run, we need someone to exploit the space just behind Lukaku. This suits Martial better, WHEN the game opens up.

Has been saying this since pre season:1. Lukaku & Martial compliments each other playing centrally 2. Rashford needs to play wide with Lukaku or they oversteps each other.

 

[Soski]

Why fix what isn't broken? Bringing Martial on to terrorise tired defenders is actually a pretty decent tactic.

We shouldn't change it until we lose

Why not reward good performances to show the whole squad that they can earn their place. Also, it works the other way around. If some of you think Martial only performs because the oppo is tired.....start him...and let Rashford have a game where he can come on with 15 minutes left and prove he can finish off tired players.

I will be honest, Rashford was most certainly one of our liveliest players in that first half, and we needed somebody to try and make things happen...but his decision making was frustrating. He took long shots when there were players trying to run into space, he didnt lift his head to see what was around him and ended up either losing the ball or slowing the game down......and his one on one's are Welbeckesque (awful attempt). When you then have a player like Martial who is linking beautifully with Lukaku, Miki and Pogba...it has to be tried from the start of a game. Of course it wont be as easy against a team not chasing a game...but at least give him a couple of games to prove what he can do in all situations. Rashford needs to learn better link up and not to be so ball greedy at this point....if you want to hog the ball and ignore team mates you better damn well make sure you produce a finished product. That's something the training staff should be talking to him about.

 

[Catt]

Martial doesn't need to miss a chance, he just has to misplace a pass and you'd see this place filled with comments claiming he should be sold by the end of the season if he keeps being useless.

There'd also be plenty of talks about his attitude and him being lazy, talks about his lack of movement and willingness as well as all the negative things some people could find to say about him.

It's quite bizarre, especially seeing as the player being subjected to such a witch hunt is one that was by far our best outfield players 2 years ago at only 19 years old. Some people are simply THAT fickle.

Who are all these posters wanting Martial sold? What have been said is that he does have some things to improve, especially when not having the ball, and I'm not sure how that represents a witch hunt?

We have two great, young talents in Rashford and Martial and we should enjoy watching them develop.

 

[MadMike]

I'm sure José will be sticking with the same formation which is fair enough. I won't complain either way as we're on a nice run so sticking with the same players is reasonable, but Martial, in my opinion, is our best attacker so for him to come into the starting XI would be great as well.

It's a nice situation to be in, though if I had to choose I'd have Martial replace Rashford against Leicester. Martial is the better player and having Marcus come on against tiring defences has worked a treat in the past, too.

The "why change something that's working" argument hasn't won me over. We were only 1 goal in front until Martial came on, the game was not exactly in the bag. Nor were we playing expansive football. Martial and Mkhi put it in the bag with their direct running late on. Do we have to drop points before we give the player that looks hungry and deserving of a chance his chance?

Rashford was again wasteful, both with his finishing and in possession. Mata (as well pointed out by Jenas on MOTD) always comes inside and the team becomes too narrow. I'd argue on current form Martial should be starting ahead of Rashford, he's more likely to finish the chances he's getting. Although playing Rashford on the right ahead of Mata is also an option because could we really stretch defences that way. Only caveat with that is using all our fast players from the start and having no option for the end.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Absolutely surgical finish, love it. Bringing him on against tired legs is amazing for his confidence and ability.

 

[ti vu]

The "why change something that's working" argument hasn't won me over. We were only 1 goal in front until Martial came on, the game was not exactly in the bag. Nor were we playing expansive football. Martial and Mkhi put it in the bag with their direct running late on. Do we have to drop points before we give the player that looks hungry and deserving of a chance his chance?

Rashford was again wasteful, both with his finishing and in possession. Mata (as well pointed out by Jenas on MOTD) always comes inside and the team becomes too narrow. I'd argue on current form Martial should be starting ahead of Rashford, he's more likely to finish the chances he's getting. Although playing Rashford on the right ahead of Mata is also an option because could we really stretch defences that way. Only caveat with that is using all our fast players from the start and having no option for the end.

Disagree.

People often forget there are 2 teams on the pitch. Swansea made huge change and gave away more space in area that a skillful dribbler like Martial would be better suited for the job. That's the context of his sub this game. Sure if he were in Rashford place when Rashford got the chance, I have no doubt Martial likely would have done better. The thing is Martial unlike doing those off ball run. Swansea in the first half congested the space. Had it not for the goal at the end of first half, they would not be desperate and changing shape thus exposed themselves. Against the tactic like in the first half, it's better to keep better width, stretching play and have better crosser. Rashford on theory would be better in these thing, but had an underwhelming game with making too many bad decisions. No defense on that. However, Rashford overalls contributed more in West Ham game so he is deserved to start, given Swansea tactic.

Just look at Pogba, Micky until Swansea changed their shape. They couldn't play to their best centrally and had to go around to wide areas. Adding in hindsight, Blind was wank, if Martial were to start this game, then we pretty gave up left wing altogether with Martial prefers to cut drift inside, with Blind rushed thing when being pressed. We don't have problem keeping width on the right wing with Valencia, so Mata drifting around was justified.

I don't worry about Martial at all. Already stated that he was very sharp in pre season which was a good sign for thing to come. There is plenty of games to play later on. It's just match day 2 of new season.

Edit: for some reason, this part was left out of my post.

My point is. Martial being an important for Mourinho, a player with X factor, then he is not to be heavily involved early in the season when we can still get result regardless. Save the best wine for later, when we have to bruteforce. A season is long & tough. No point burning out at the crucial moment. It's not like Martial ain't afforded to get a run in and build form at the moment.

 

[Rozay]

It's only 2 weeks into the season.

I explained earlier in this or the other Martial thread that Rashford usage was all about tactic to provide width and work rate to keep balance. Rashford contributed more than Martial in the West Ham game despite Martial has been more productive. Rashford was meh vs Swansea game fulfilling his duty, but it's very clear how Martial was played different role when he was subbed on this game. Swansea was very compact in first half till they decided to gambled with their subs to change the system. Martial came on to exploit the space with Swansea being desperate & arguably involved more centrally in final third. So it's clearly Martial was used to kill Swansea off while Rashford was previously used to mainly to stretch play, which unlike vs West Ham, Rashford didn't play too well.



Key difference is Lukaku vs Zlatan. Zlatan doesn't have the space to keep offer the run in behind. Zlatan had to get involved more with link up which means, someone else needs to do the run. Rashford offers more in this department than Martial.

Now Lukaku is more than enough offer those run, we need someone to exploit the space just behind Lukaku. This suits Martial better, WHEN the game opens up.

Has been saying this since pre season:1. Lukaku & Martial compliments each other playing centrally 2. Rashford needs to play wide with Lukaku or they oversteps each other.

So if we are not in the lead and don't need to 'kill the game', is there any need to ever bring Martial on?

 

[ti vu]

So if we are not in the lead and don't need to 'kill the game', is there any need to ever bring Martial on?

Still possibility with one of Mata or Micky get the hooked with Rashford being kept to provide the cross. I am talking about this game only. There is plenty of team who is not tactical disciplined enough for us to even go with 3 at the back with Martial & Lukaku to start up front with Martial was given permission to play centrally.

Edit: Given how Leicester plays IMO, I see possibility Martial is to start this game on pure tactic POV, without consideration of how productive he has been since the new season begins.

 

[snk123]

Pointless discussion with the usual names undermining Martial's performances these two games - just because he is head and shoulders above local boy Rashford.

If anything Martial is way more effective against a packed defense than Rashford ever will be.

And why do we need to tire the opposition for 75 mins before bringing our best outfield player? Imagine Barca and Real doing that with Messi and Ronaldo

Martial simply has to play. Jose should get stick - not credit, for giving Martial only 10 minutes a game.

 

[Soski]

Pointless discussion with the usual names undermining Martial's performances these two games - just because he is head and shoulders above local boy Rashford.

If anything Martial is way more effective against a packed defense than Rashford ever will be.

And why do we need to tire the opposition for 75 mins before bringing our best outfield player? Imagine Barca and Real doing that with Messi and Ronaldo

Martial simply has to play. Jose should get stick - not credit, for giving Martial only 10 minutes a game.

Absolutely.

Jose even celebrated through gritted teeth when he scored. Imagine if Fellaini would have got the fourth goal.....he would have ran onto the pitch and half bummed the man child.

 

[Santoryo]

I'm also surprised at people suggesting that Martial is better at running at tired defense when stretched rather than packed defense(though not really surprised given the amount of silly things said in this thread).

Rashford kick and rush style of dribbling is the one not very effective against packed and tight defenses unless the teams have already stretched. Rashford dribbling solely relies on pace which isn't always ideal against compact teams.

Martial on the other hand can dribble through tight defense because his dribbling and handling of the ball have him keeping it tight/glue to his feet. He's more in the mold of Hazard, Robben type player. They keep the ball incredibly tight to their feet while dribbling or making good any sudden burst or run with the ball.

Obviously Martial can sometime just breeze through some defenders with pure pace with moving the ball a few yards from him but he's mostly about keeping the ball tight to his feet.

Martial simply has far too many abilities and very high end product to be reduced to some type of super sub, that thought alone is ridiculously nonsensical. You don't bench your most dangerous attacking player through some bizarre notion about using him as an impact sub over tired legs.

The guy has pace, skills with a ball at his feet, dribbling abilities, clinical finishing basically he has an overall game with magic in him plus end product yet you have people preferring him on the bench for 70 minutes of games.

This place is funny

 

[Eric Chin]

give credit where credit's due.Martial should be starting next match or at least more minute not just last 15minute.at least give him half match.

he gain his confidence back.he just need more minute to maintain his confidence or we just let it slip?

he play a big part on the 2nd goal for pulling a bunch of defender with him and left Lukaku unmarked.

 

[Rozay]

Still possibility with one of Mata or Micky get the hooked with Rashford being kept to provide the cross. I am talking about this game only. There is plenty of team who is not tactical disciplined enough for us to even go with 3 at the back with Martial & Lukaku to start up front with Martial was given permission to play centrally.

Edit: Given how Leicester plays IMO, I see possibility Martial is to start this game on pure tactic POV, without consideration of how productive he has been since the new season begins.

Are there any opponents that Pogba, or Valencia perhaps are not the most tactically suited and we would be better suited with an alternative? Do you think Jose will choose between Rashford and Lukaku this season dependent on the speed of the defenders?

The issue is, if Martial is one of our better and most productive forwards, which the argument is that he is, he should play regardless of opposition. Just as our best midfielders and full backs do.

 

[ti vu]

Are there any opponents that Pogba, or Valencia perhaps are not the most tactically suited and we would be better suited with an alternative? Do you think Jose will choose between Rashford and Lukaku this season dependent on the speed of the defenders?

The issue is, if Martial is one of our better and most productive forwards, which the argument is that he is, he should play regardless of opposition. Just as our best midfielders and full backs do.

I don't think Pogba would be not suited for any tactic against any teams. He is complete midfielder, which mean he can change gear, roles. If he can't be productive near opposition goal, he can still pretty much well pulling string deep or a side play maker... Valencia is a proper wide player. He was done as winger but since he is very capable defensively was transformed as fullback. His responsibility is pretty much same. You don't see him to asked to play as side CB in 3 at back system. Just because Valencia is our best full back, doesn't mean he can play on left side.

Here with Martial, he is a forward by trade. The role Rashford was doing the last couple games were not Martial's taste. Our main forward is now Lukaku and the team is and should be supposed to work to bring out his best.

Martial doesn't switch gear into a proper winger, nor an attacking midfielder or replacing the way Lukaku play (aerial ability, presence). He ain't as effective on right wing. Martial style is suited to play either with Rashford or Lukaku centrally. Rashford & Lukaku are direct competition playing centrally. Both prefer running behind. It's inbalance having 2 central players running in behind especially when there is no width. Lukaku ain't slowpoke. He is to start if his fitness permits. Rashford would be pretty a wide player as long as Lukaku is to start.

Until we solved the left wing issue with a proper winger or lb who can cover the whole wing, Martial unless a miraculous development (becoming more like a winger), is still tactical constrained for the sake of team balance. The team balance is often neglect. SAF won the league fielding some underwhelming names quit often while higher profile player could benched when HE saw it fits.

 

[Red_toad]

Martial doesn't need to miss a chance, he just has to misplace a pass and you'd see this place filled with comments claiming he should be sold by the end of the season if he keeps being useless.

There'd also be plenty of talks about his attitude and him being lazy, talks about his lack of movement and willingness as well as all the negative things some people could find to say about him.

It's quite bizarre, especially seeing as the player being subjected to such a witch hunt is one that was by far our best outfield players 2 years ago at only 19 years old. Some people are simply THAT fickle.

Can I have some evidence of that please. I find that very very hard to believe and have never witnessed any such posts.

 

[Red_toad]

It is a tough trade off between Rashford and Martial.

Rashford provides more energy which Martial lack in terms of chasing and harrying down opponents and constantly making runs into space.

Rashford would have been better utilised down the right hand side. Mata should be the player looking over his shoulder over losing his place after yesterdays performance. Marcus can play both side, Martial should be given the left wing slot on merit.

 

[AR87]

Martial's link up play is much better than Rashford's and against Swansea that was sitting deep and compact that would have been more useful than Rashford's off ball movement and individualistic efforts today.

 

[Tapori]

Martial, team wise, suffers from not having a Shaw like LB right now.

When him and Rashers play it will be spectacular

 

[Oldham]

Such an exciting talent....
So glad we got him and Rashford.

 

[shabadu84]

Crazy idea - liking both Martial and Rashford and wanting them both to succeed

 

[Martial]

Crazy idea - liking both Martial and Rashford and wanting them both to succeed

Yep, a certain poster who has been spam-posting babble the last few pages and a few others really need to take a leaf out of this quote.

Great problem to have both of them.

 

[Baxter]

I'd love him to start but also don't see the point in changing a winning team. He's been brilliant when he's come and he has a big argument to be starting but I'm very happy that he's contributing.

I do disagree with those saying he's a striker though. In my mind, he's absolutely best on the inside left with the ability to pick the ball up slightly deeper and drive at defences. I also think Jose knows exactly how good he can be and he'll be a major part of the team this season.

 

[Klopp_De_Klown]

Tony Martial: Man United legend status confirmed after 21 mins of his debut.

The lad can play but he is a form player(or so it would seem) and at the moment he is on form. However he is coming on with something to prove against a tired defence. Is this a consideration we must make when assessing his performances.

I expect him to start next week and I hope he does well but in the same breath i want to see Rash come on and have the exact same impact as Tony M. In fact I demand it from him. The bar is set. Thats the standard we need to expect of our front 3. Feck the last few seasons. A very achievable goal for both our class kids.

So back to Tony, If he can add the excitement and composure he has shown already this season off the bench, from the start. He will get the nod most weeks. He needs and deserves his chance and Rash is no bad sub to bring and if we are in cruise mode bring off Lukaku and play the 2 kids for the last 15 and tell them hunt together not to get isolated. They both have excellent pace and movement to destroy defences.

But i will be disapointed if Tony M dont start next week. Because either we do things right or people get pissed off.

 

[Sayros]

Martial will most likely start next week, and I think that's a good balance for Mourinho. Martial has been putting pressure on Rashford who has been playing well but without that end product, while Martial comes in and scores. Now if Martial starts, I expect Rashford to come in around the same time as Mourinho's been introducing Martial, hoping he can make a similar impact in the latter stages of the game. It's to the benefit of the team to have these two young players putting pressure on one another to perform. I think Rashford will respond well, just like Martial has thus far. However, you can't keep one or the other as a super-sub. Their form has to be taken into account and rewarded with more playing time otherwise, a guy like Martial might start to lose his confidence if he keeps performing and yet is used as a super sub regardless.

 

[Hawks2008]

I'm also surprised at people suggesting that Martial is better at running at tired defense when stretched rather than packed defense(though not really surprised given the amount of silly things said in this thread).

Rashford kick and rush style of dribbling is the one not very effective against packed and tight defenses unless the teams have already stretched. Rashford dribbling solely relies on pace which isn't always ideal against compact teams.

Martial on the other hand can dribble through tight defense because his dribbling and handling of the ball have him keeping it tight/glue to his feet. He's more in the mold of Hazard, Robben type player. They keep the ball incredibly tight to their feet while dribbling or making good any sudden burst or run with the ball.

Obviously Martial can sometime just breeze through some defenders with pure pace with moving the ball a few yards from him but he's mostly about keeping the ball tight to his feet.

Martial simply has far too many abilities and very high end product to be reduced to some type of super sub, that thought alone is ridiculously nonsensical. You don't bench your most dangerous attacking player through some bizarre notion about using him as an impact sub over tired legs.

The guy has pace, skills with a ball at his feet, dribbling abilities, clinical finishing basically he has an overall game with magic in him plus end product yet you have people preferring him on the bench for 70 minutes of games.

This place is funny

Yeah but Rashford is better at being a "local lad™"