[Stacks]

Exactly. Martial isn't getting the chances he has had in the last two matches in the first half of either game which has always been his problem. With an open defence we all know how good he is, its never been his problem. Its can he break down a back line to create the first goal like Rashford did last week. Neither are consistently good at it and struggle starting games when trying to force it against defensive units. It would look the same the other way around too with Rashford coming off the bench to tired and open defences. Both fantastic players and more than happy to have them as our options on the left side.

Rashford made minimal impact in the EPL last season as a starter and a sub. 16 starts, 16 bench apps 1 assist 5 goals. Just thought I would mention since people assume Rashford could emulate Martial. It doesn't work like that as Rashford has come off the bench many times last season only to disappoint. Still feel that Rashford is useless out wide but would be a solid rotational striker.

 

[Santoryo]

Run ragged is an exaggeration. They were still pushing hard at 1-0.

For some reason this is being ignored. Some people are talking as if Martial was introduced to a completely beaten Swansea and just chipped in his goal. He came in when we were actually on the back foot and Swansea started asking questions with the game looking to end in a nervy affair. Substitutions got made and our threat increased and we put them down.

 

[haram]

He did well for his goal but you have to place it in the context of where the game was. We all know he is talented, but it isn't as simple as starting him ahead of Rashford who has done well bar the misses against Real and today of course. I doubt Martial would have been more effective than Rashford was against the packed defence.

Always felt like he was gonna score once he came on though.

Dont want this to become Rashford vs Martial. Mourinho is starting Rashford ahead of Martial for a reason though.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Mind is at Spurs.

 

[Member 5225]

He needs to be kept hungry, keep him on the bench I say, and let him try and prove a point from the bench (working so far), until the coaching staff (and Jose mainly) can see his ferocious desire to start behind the scenes (and hopefully smash it when he does). IMO

Rashford has been immense tbf, he's run the opposition ragged and let Martial come on and capitalise. I don't think it'd be the case the other way around IMHO.

 

[Ash_G]

So after watching pre season games and our start t the league, some people still maintain that he should still be used as an impact sub? So all those numbers he's been delivering, people would rather ignore those for some unchanged side theory when in truth the food of goals have coincided with Martial introductions.

We scored 6 goals with him on the pitch and our attack has looked the best in the last 10-15 minutes in our last 2 games. Martial didn't come to blowout scoreline and just added something on top, he came on on tight 1 goal leads and contributed to our blowout scoreline, this alone suggest and shows the need to have his attacking threat from the start.

Reducing Martial to some sort of super sub is a silly notion. He's a dangerous player that would contribute to the team from the first minute.

I think it's clear though in both games when Martial came on the opposition were having to open up and attack in the hopes of an equalizer and are more tired creating space for the counter which Martial could then expose. That doesn't take away from Martial, he still has made the most of it and deserves praise for that.

I think in games like today it makes sense to start with Rashford and then switch to Martial based on where they both currently are in their development. Rashford's workrate makes him useful in games which are more tight and we need to harry opposition whilst having that pace to cause problems when we can get him in. What he doesn't have though is the direct threat/finishing of Martial. As such bringing Martial in, once the other team is more tired/have to open up to attack us works well as it's a situation that more suits him and which he can make more of than Rashford who isn't as lethal in the same situations.

I'm not saying I want Martial to be an impact sub all season, I just think after a tough 2nd season it makes sense to build his confidence back up but also from a squad perspective, so far the balance in the team has been good over the course of the game. The starting 11 has enough firepower and workrate that if we get a goal up then towards the latter parts of the game we can then play on the counter more which Martial can come in to devastating effect.

There will still be plenty of games where he can and will start and no doubt if Mata/Mikhi/Rashford underperform he will surely be first in to replace them. Based on the 2 games we've played though the game plan is working really well. Maybe Martial might be able to do more from the start but hard to say. Based on where his game currently is he can also struggle when it's more cagey where as realistically based on the 2 games we've played you couldn't ask for much more I don't think and so it doesn't make sense to change it.

 

[Santoryo]

People saying he played well because the game was more open.
They forget his dribbling is an important factor in why teams open up.
Once he starts dribbling into the middle of the pitch, players don't have a choice but to drift out of position.

In the first half I saw instances of our wingers breaking on the counter with 2 players to beat and fluffed those chances to nothing either by poor decision making(a simple pass, head up could have done the trick) or getting dispossessed in crucial area while being in favorable circumstances. One can bet that Martial would turn any of those attack into at the very least dangerous situations if not assist or goal.

These talks of keeping Martial as a sub are frankly weird. I thought the hope was for him to regain form so he can start to tear it up for us again. have i missed something.

 

[Silas]

For some reason this is being ignored. Some people are talking as if Martial was introduced to a completely beaten Swansea and just chipped in his goal. He came in when we were actually on the back foot and Swansea started asking questions with the game looking to end in a nervy affair. Substitutions got made and our threat increased and we put them down.

Yeah it puts it into perspective when you realise, considering he's played about 30 minutes in total, we've scored more goals with him on the pitch than without so far.

 

[Santoryo]

That's it, I've heard everything. The excuses to keep Martial off the starting line up are downright silly.

Who goes around claiming to bench their better players for them to be used as subs later? A team should play its better players, it's as simple as that.

 

[Mockney]

I'd give him a chance to but I don't it's a clear-cut decision either way. Likewise with him/Rashford vs. Mata. They're all contributing something very useful at the moment so I think they should all feel a bit aggrieved about being dropped. The good thing is when the team's playing well it tends to be easier for those left out to swallow!

We have to acknowledge that Rashford kept grinding away at the defence and contributed to the tiredness that Martial capitalised on. Under Mourinho Martial has generally been less effective than Rashford at injecting a spark into the team when the opposition defence is tightly packed so it may well be that the current setup is the ideal one at this point. Hopefully Martial with a bit of confidence can break through that and add another spark to our team.

Oh yeah, for sure. I expect us to use all of them fairly regularly according to the situation. Mata & Mikhi are better at breaking stubborn teams down for example, whilst Rash and Martial are more effective running at teams that are more open. So whilst we're using this approach of one wide runner and one clever playmaker on the wings, I'd let Martial take the lead on current form, and give Rash the chance to come on late and punish the oppositions tiredness.

Both have a tendency to hold onto it too long but Rashford moreso, so I think he'd be better served with the 'easier' late shift, especially as Martial's killer instinct is better at present.

I'm happy with the variety of our options tbf. We could ideally do with a really good Beckham-esque crosser to cover all the bases, but I've never been entirely convinced Persisic would be that missing piece. He seems more like a more mature version of what we already have.

 

[Vashu]

Martial's just had nightmare of a season. However I'm not sure if many have noticed that right at the end of it, when harsh reality under our strict coach might have loomed up for the Frenchman, a change has occurred. In his last two starts against Southampton and Tottenham he actually become threatening again. These were 2 decent games from him even without numbers to back it up. Now with the start of the new season and playing time coming only from the bench at this moment in time, he looks sharp as well as ready in general to fight for it. I believe that his second season syndrome is over and he's back on the right track.

Since it doesn't look like Perisic's going to come to United I don't have a problem with Martial fighting for a starting spot on the left with Rashford, who also seems to have improved on a largely forgettable year of football. Right wing though, is a case for concern.

 

[Santoryo]

I think it's clear though in both games when Martial came on the opposition were having to open up and attack in the hopes of an equalizer and are more tired creating space for the counter which Martial could then expose. That doesn't take away from Martial, he still has made the most of it and deserves praise for that.

I think in games like today it makes sense to start with Rashford and then switch to Martial based on where they both currently are in their development. Rashford's workrate makes him useful in games which are more tight and we need to harry opposition whilst having that pace to cause problems when we can get him in. What he doesn't have though is the direct threat/finishing of Martial. As such bringing Martial in, once the other team is more tired/have to open up to attack us works well as it's a situation that more suits him and which he can make more of than Rashford who isn't as lethal in the same situations.

I'm not saying I want Martial to be an impact sub all season, I just think after a tough 2nd season it makes sense to build his confidence back up but also from a squad perspective, so far the balance in the team has been good over the course of the game. The starting 11 has enough firepower and workrate that if we get a goal up then towards the latter parts of the game we can then play on the counter more which Martial can come in to devastating effect.

There will still be plenty of games where he can and will start and no doubt if Mata/Mikhi/Rashford underperform he will surely be first in to replace them. Based on the 2 games we've played though the game plan is working really well. Maybe Martial might be able to do more from the start but hard to say. Based on where his game currently is he can also struggle when it's more cagey where as realistically based on the 2 games we've played you couldn't ask for much more I don't think and so it doesn't make sense to change it.

The mistake some of you are making is thinking Martial is better as a sub while other options are better starting. Martial can tear up a team even when starting, he doesn't need a tired defense to do that, he's done that before plenty of times for us already. Heck this pre season alone he tore into Real defense and he started that game. He has abilities to run though a tight defense. Relegating him into a sub isn't doing justice to his abilities.

He's far too good and dangerous to be used for 10-15 minutes cameos, we need his threat from minute 1.

 

[Suedesi]

That same opposition just few minutes prior to Martial's introduction were starting to pin us back. We could have ended that game very uncomfortably trying to defend that 1-0 lead, it's only after we increased our attacking threat that we became comfortable and the flood gate opened. How is it hard to see.

Last year we would have conceded in injury time 1:1.

 

[horsechoker]

Such a cool finisher in the last 2 games, deserves to start next match and then let Rashford come on against a tiring defence. I think if we alternate like that they will be end up collecting a few goals which kill of games.

 

[Santoryo]

Yeah it puts it into perspective when you realise, considering he's played about 30 minutes in total, we've scored more goals with him on the pitch than without so far.

Something which some people are failing to realize. All these talks of keeping the same starting line up, etc because we've battered teams so far, have forgot to mention that we've actually blown away those team with introductions of different players from the starting line up. Both games could have easily ended in a casual 1-0 or maybe routine 2-0(the WH game) or nervy 1-0 or 1-1 in case of Swansea. They became hammering when our attacking threat leveled up and our potency soared.

I mean fine, you keep Martial benched all game against Swansea and we end that game biting our nails through 10-15 more minutes with Swansea pushing for an equalizer. They had us on the back foot by then already for the last 5 or so minutes. We then introduced more attacking threat and we finally regain our control, dominating them and putting them away with clinical and prolific finishing. This is not that hard to get.

 

[Ash_G]

The mistake some of you are making is thinking Martial is better as a sub while other options are better starting. Martial can tear up a team even when starting, he doesn't need a tired defense to do that, he's done that before plenty of times for us already. Heck this pre season alone he tore into Real defense and he started that game. He has abilities to run though a tight defense. Relegating him into a sub isn't doing justice to his abilities.

He's far too good and dangerous to be used for 10-15 minutes cameos, we need his threat from minute 1.

It's not necessarily about a tired opposition but about an opposition who are defending with everyone behind the ball and so it's really tight. I'm not saying that Martial can never be useful in that situation but from a tactical point of view it makes sense to keep him in reserve (provided the actual 11 has sufficient fire power which is does) and then bring him on once the other team has to be more attacking in order to go for an equaliser as he can offer more in that situation than say Rashford who has the pace but not the clinicalness.

 

[Kevin]

That's it, I've heard everything. The excuses to keep Martial off the starting line up are downright silly.

Who goes around claiming to bench their better players for them to be used as subs later? A team should play its better players, it's as simple as that.

It's because he is in the way of a half decent player that came through our ranks.
Had it been anyone else competing with him for the spot from the left and they would be singing a different tune.

 

[Dobbs]

He better start next game! Looks a lot more hungry this season. I think the tough love from Jose has done it

I think it's just a young talented player going through the fluctuations in form all young players do.

 

[Adisa]

I think it's just a young talented player going through the fluctuations in form all young players do.

This.
People have over analysed his bad patch.

 

[RedStarUnited]

In the first half I saw instances of our wingers breaking on the counter with 2 players to beat and fluffed those chances to nothing either by poor decision making(a simple pass, head up could have done the trick) or getting dispossessed in crucial area while being in favorable circumstances. One can bet that Martial would turn any of those attack into at the very least dangerous situations if not assist or goal.

These talks of keeping Martial as a sub are frankly weird. I thought the hope was for him to regain form so he can start to tear it up for us again. have i missed something.

Great points there. The Rashford one really pissed me off because the turn he did to get away was superb but then never really had the situation inder control.

In the final third, when Martial is on the ball I feel he can take any defender on. I dont have that same confidence with anyone else in our team.

 

[Donut]

He scored our last goal but I celebrated his the most. I so want him to succeed here, it'd be such a shame if he doesn't.

 

[soap]

Yeah I'd start him next week. It won't do Rashford any harm to miss one game.

 

[OneUnited24]

I think it's just a young talented player going through the fluctuations in form all young players do.

Id disagree, i think Marital under LvG looked pretty lazy. The difference is in LvGs system he was expected to be that target man and not run the channels.

But you make a fair comment. I mean, i can think of so many young players in the past fail to make an impact in their second season

 

[Santoryo]

Great points there. The Rashford one really pissed me off because the turn he did to get away was superb but then never really had the situation inder control.

In the final third, when Martial is on the ball I feel he can take any defender on. I dont have that same confidence with anyone else in our team.

Those are the exact type of situations I'm talking about. Rashford does something brilliant to get round his man, found himself in a situation where he could have easily square the ball or just beat the last defender with a bit of acceleration but decided to do the wrong thing by keeping his head down(which led to him failing to see Lukaku open) and fluffed to much with the ball until that situation got reduce to nothing.

Normally Martial would have seen Lukaku first of all given he doesn't play with his heads down or would have simply dribbled those last 2 defenders and get on with it.

This is why Martial despite playing in less favorable circumstances last season managed more assists and goals than Lingard and Rashford combined. The latter 2 final ball is quite lacking.

While Rashford produce those exiting moments(turning his man) he usually end up doing nothing in the final third. Martial on the other hand produces both those moments of magic and is dangerous when approaching that final third because he has high end product.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

What are you basing that on? Rashford is the better talent in my eyes.

Martial has good close control but that's about it. Rashford beats him in everything else.

Rashford isn't in Martial's league. The respective finishes today demonstrated that.

 

[shabadu84]

For me, Martial is quite clearly the better finisher but Rashford is the better poacher/fox in the box. Rashford has the better speed. I think Martial is also the more effective dribbler but Rashford has more dribbling skills in his locker. Similar intelligence I think, though they use it to different effect. Combine the two and you'd have something like Ronaldo or Henry.

 

[Alexrad]

Mentioned in the match thread - Really happy with what he's giving us here but don't want to be starting him yet personally.
Rashford was crowded out earlier in the game, which Martial might still struggle with. Happy to see us using him as a 'surprise' tactic that's working well at the moment on a tired team, while building his confidence and goal tally.

Martial is better suited to break up packed defenses than Rashford is.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

Should have done enough to start a couple of games now. Good start to the season from him, statswise. Hoping he can get close to 15 goals in the league.

 

[kotha]

Martial is better suited to break up packed defenses than Rashford is.

Yup.. If we ahead by a goal,then we can afford Martial to be a sub like today or against West Ham..

But if a team decides to just camp in the box with 10 men behind the ball,I don't think we can afford having Martial on the bench as a sub while time runs out.. His dribbling can open up spaces in defense,Rashford's pace wouldn't be useful against a team that are just compact and tight(like a Pulis team)..

 

[Soski]

Okay, Jose...over to you. He has 2 goals and an assist in 25 minutes of football. Prove that you don't play favourites and give hime 90 minutes in 2 consecutive games. Let Rashford or Mata try the super sub role.

 

[Stacks]

Shock horror Martial plays well, is praised by Mourinho, scores again and all is happy.

That's football ladies and gents. You play well you get your chances. Mourinho has been pretty fair with everyone just like last season when he came under criticism about how he handled Shaw and Mkhitaryan..

You can't just expect to play. It's all about creating the type of atmosphere we have at the club right now. Not what we endured under Moyes and LvG.

To this day, Martial has played best under this man so maybe we should analyse his method of handling young players. Poch said last season you must give young talents a different approach. If they are special talents, I think they should play week in week out.

 

[ypsipeos]

Okay, Jose...over to you. He has 2 goals and an assist in 25 minutes of football. Prove that you don't play favourites and give hime 90 minutes in 2 consecutive games. Let Rashford or Mata try the super sub role.

Should have done enough to start a couple of games now. Good start to the season from him, statswise. Hoping he can get close to 15 goals in the league.

"If it works, why change it?", I 'm afraid.

 

[Redplane]

Rather than continuing to argue over whether Rashford or Martial is better - let's take a moment to appreciate we have arguably 2 of the top 10 brightest young stars on our team. Just don't ask me to name the other 8. Good times. I just hope the club will do whatever it takes to keep this bunch together for the foreseeable future. Real is probably the best example of the long term positive effects when you do that.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

"If it works, why change it?", I 'm afraid.

It's worked better after he came on in both matches, obviously. Would be strange if he had to come on and hope that the game turns and we lose for him to have a chance of starting the next game.

 

[Dobbs]

So after watching pre season games and our start t the league, some people still maintain that he should still be used as an impact sub? So all those numbers he's been delivering, people would rather ignore those for some unchanged side theory when in truth the flood of goals have coincided with Martial introductions. We were on the back foot just minutes from his introduction, so saying he came on to a tired team isn't true at all. Swansea were starting o ask question and we had an uncomfortable spell. We brought in more threat and dismissed them, nothing to do with tired defense.

We scored 6 goals with him on the pitch and our attack has looked the best in the last 10-15 minutes in our last 2 games. Martial didn't come to blowout scoreline and just added something on top, he came on on tight 1 goal leads and contributed to our blowout scoreline, this alone suggest and shows the need to have his attacking threat from the start.

Reducing Martial to some sort of super sub is a silly notion. He's a dangerous player that would contribute to the team from the first minute.

Agree.

If he hadn't done well as a sub he'd be criticised. Now he's been excellent from the bench that's the role he should keep? The guy can't win with some fans.

Be easier if they just admitted they got this one wrong.

 

[ti vu]

In the first half I saw instances of our wingers breaking on the counter with 2 players to beat and fluffed those chances to nothing either by poor decision making(a simple pass, head up could have done the trick) or getting dispossessed in crucial area while being in favorable circumstances. One can bet that Martial would turn any of those attack into at the very least dangerous situations if not assist or goal.

These talks of keeping Martial as a sub are frankly weird. I thought the hope was for him to regain form so he can start to tear it up for us again. have i missed something.

The thing is in first half, Swansea pretty much succeeded in contesting the space. Sure if Martial was being afforded in the exact situation, he can produce. The issue is to create the foil for him to be there. We need to stretch play, which IMO, we didn't do too well. That's with Rashford. There was time I think a natural winger would first time cross, or keep running to the byline, yet Rashford decided to cut back, went central & left nervous Blind isolated outwide which Blind when being nervous often rushed thing & make poor pass/crossing.

Swansea was bale to keep up their tactic until they decided to take gamble by going more open with the double subs. This is where there were more space which I believed Mourinho saw Martial with his quality on ball &a the style that compliment Lukaku centrally would be better fit than Rashford. I have maintained this opinion since pre season that Rashford can't work well centrally with Lukaku given their style while Martial's style compliments Lukaku style when both playing centrally.

All things considered, my point is if we really need to keep width and stretching play, then Rashford is still better option. However, for exploiting the space (cutting inside), with productity, Martial is superior. That's no question. If Martial is to employed the way Rashford was in first half, then it would turn to be frustrating game him. So it depends on tactics, from the opposition team too.

 

[ypsipeos]

It's worked better after he came on in both matches, obviously. Would be strange if he had to come on and hope that the game turns and we lose for him to have a chance of starting the next game.

I am saying this is a tactical choice, not favoring somebody.
He really is good for some munutes, then keeps quiet for most of the game, then has some bursts again etc etc.

That's Martial for now. Mou is using him in the best way he can.

 

[Dante]

To this day, Martial has played best under this man so maybe we should analyse his method of handling young players. Poch said last season you must give young talents a different approach. If they are special talents, I think they should play week in week out.

Martial is poor out wide. He doesn't have the skillset required to be a winger. His main game is about getting into the box and scoring goals. LvG's system allowed that freedom because of our slow build-up through the middle; Mourinho's generally doesn't. I don't think the issue is man-management so much as the roles each coach defined for the left-wing position.

 

[Soski]

"If it works, why change it?", I 'm afraid.

Yep, lets play a system where poor play is rewarded and good play not so. That really encourages the squad who come in and perform.

 

[Dobbs]

"If it works, why change it?", I 'm afraid.

That means the better he does the more likely he is to remain a sub.

Which runs contrary to the way football has worked for the last 100 years.