I don't say it's only way or best way, but it's preferred way with our players and their combined quality. We have more direct players than tidy passers. Young our best offensive left back is direct, Valencia is direct. Mikhi is direct. Lukaku is direct. Matic is good but he's no Xabi Alonso and would also prefers going direct more often than not. Pogba can do well playing the passing game but his decision making is not the best yet. We are not a heavy possession based team.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 11
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
I guess MBappe took his spot.
Mbappe is out of the contest, but Martial must be selected ahead of Coman. Any sane manager will do that.
So why do these other players get a pass for being direct whilst it seems a handicap to Martial?
I actually don't care which one starts as long as we keep the results coming in and both players are happy with their roles. Just clarifying this as I don't want to come across as I'm advocating Martial always starting over Rashford, I just don't see it as clear cut as you do.
And why so? coman gor good skills too and can play both wings, left footed may be they require that balance.
What do you mean by getting a pass? Being direct here means that they are very bold with their supply. A long ball a cross over the top which mean you have to battle out with the full back to win it. You have to stay shoulder to shoulder and eager to run in behind... to gain the edge. Lukaku, Rashford are better in this style. Martial prefers the ball at his feet to ulitize his dribbling. It's harder for Martial when the other team keep their shape and had man tightly mark Martial.
Your previous point is that to help Martial to less getting double teamed, we need to pass around more and quick, which is not suitable for our team compact at the moment. It's similar to LVG approach where the system was built to help giving Martial more chance to run 1 on 1 against a defender. We didn't reach the state when we move the ball quickly enough, may it be the personnel or simply LVG is not that good at teaching. Point is this team despite at time have lot of possession is not built on that philosophy so they ain't that comfortable to with heavy possession. They prefer going more direct having the front man battle it out with opposition defenders
I am just trying to explain my take on the matter than saying who is right or wrong. It's opinion game so I respect different opinion. I am not fussed over who start either. I am not supporting individual player. Cheers.
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Because Martial has been in far better form than Coman recently.
Martial is to compete with MBappe and or Griezmann who unlikely need to be rested as one of the wide/second forward role. Coman is different profile. He is the replacement for Dembele since he has been called up, a winger.
But Martial is a complete different player from both Mbappe and Griezmann ?
Coman is right footed.
Not complete different than MBappe role wise.
The point is the team can only field as many attackers. Griezman and MBappe have more dimension in their game and they can switch to different role (Griezmann: wing forward, MBappe: second forward, can play on right flank better than Martial) which overstep the role Martial does. Coman role is distinct. Just think Coman like Darmian. He is not exactly better overall, but in specific role, he is more equipped.
But if he has to compete with Mbappe and Griezmann he will never get called to the squad. That will be weird.
That's what I believe when Deschamps laughed and said something about if Martial keeps progressing like this then eventually feck pragmatic logic (punt intended). I wouldn't be worried. To some extend, a player would be too good to be ignored. France still needs to fight through the qualification stage. They ain't in position to go gung-ho. Logically they need to a distinct plan B if plan A fails. Unfortunately Martial is more of plan A with France current crop of talent ( Deschamps said Martial is not a good sub for him)
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Yeah like I thought, you don't actually have any point and just keep sticking to some intangibles only you is capable of seeing
If I wanted to I could invent some theories about how martial's close dribbling is actually better suited for when games are tight and make them sound good only that they'll be closer to the truth than your work rate something something.
But I know it won't change your mind so I'm not even gonna bother, so while you're at it and since you're so good at explaining people's poor form why don't you explain rashford's patchy form last season and how martial could be more productive than him in his "poor season"?
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So last season he suddenly turned to shit without any reason? Is he past it at the age of 21?
No one is disputing we are playing much better now, Van Gaals brand of boring us to death with passing football was ineffective, but for a then foreign 19 year old to come in and make such an impact speaks volumes. You claim again and again that Rashford is better suited to the system, but how exactly? His work rate and movement being better is highly debatable and is very hard to quantify. Neither of them are work horses, but none of them are lazy either. When it comes to movement both have shown they are capable of taking up good attacking positions, and both of them have had games where they looked lost, not much between them really.
I don't think Marital is far superior, but you seem to think the opposite is true, Jose's reasons for picking Rash ahead of Marital might be man management and it's not like hes never done any errors in his career. He did the same with KdB, and look at him now.
Aren't we allowed to argue against you? What has last year to do with anything? Was it Martials fault alone (who did not play much anyway) that we did not manage to score? Rashford actually played more minutes last season so that argument does not hold up. Of course it's more difficult to score at 0-0, but you seem to think that Rashford somehow is our architect behind our early goals and Martial is only capable off performing a coup de grace against a downed opponent.
Rashfords greatest attributes is his pace and ability to find space behind defenses, which gets nullified against parked buses. Martial is a better dribbler and while he can't dribble whole defenses on his own, it's still more useful than pure pace since it opens up more space. Against CSKA away (a hard fixture) he showed his value by terrorizing that left flank.
Imo, none of them has deserved a regular spot over the other, but Martial sure has feck deserves a couple of starts based on his form right now
I agree with you completely and I wonder if there's anyone who can provide an answer for why martial didn't get to play a single minute when we had an extra sub left and were chasing a game at the supercup final? After impressing vs same team in preseason no less
I'm all for holding out hope that Jose will eventually see the light and start playing martial more regularly (that's why I'm secretly hoping he starts vs Liverpool as it's his "turn") but to get on a high horse and say people worried for martial's future and game time have no basis or are just troublemakers is laughably short sighted as you'd have to be blind to the past when we have credible antecedents as regards our manager's past record regarding martial's situation
There is the lukaku, mata, de bruyne, salah past records
And there is the not giving a single minute to the boy when chasing a game in a final
Let's all hope that Jose manages these two talents optimally going into the future but you'd have to be seriously deluded if you feel everyone who has a concern for martial's playtime doesn't have legitimate reasons for such concerns
I don't think there is another player who is in his situation, as in play that well and not be a true starter when there is the place to do so.
I'm not sure if you're reading the thread but @ti vu perfectly explained a few posts back, why Rashford is better against teams sitting deep, and why he's better suited to our system.
And no, Rashfords movement and work rate being better isn't really debatable at all.
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Put it simply, if Rashford was actually better than Martial or even on par, this argument of workrate wouldn't have been the go to argument used to justify his superiority.
It's more of a desperation argument than anything. From all the attributes a player can be better than other, workrate is what comes to mind? It's pretty clear that there isn't much argument one can make for Rashford over Martial hence all these intangible about workrate, desire etc.
It's like walking into a Lingard thread with all these workrate, movements etc being used as main arguments to justify his selections.
Truth is had Rashford been even as good as Martial arguments such as his ball skills, passing, dribbling etc would have been brought forth much often to justify this thought of thinking that he's better than Martial. But of course he simply can't hack it with Martial when we talk about actual footballing skills so we resort to intangible and abilities more required for defenders like defending and all that.
It's more of a desperation argument than anything. From all the attributes a player can be better than other, workrate is what comes to mind? It's pretty clear that there isn't much argument one can make for Rashford over Martial hence all these intangible about workrate, desire etc.
It's like walking into a Lingard thread with all these workrate, movements etc being used as main arguments to justify his selections.
Truth is had Rashford been even as good as Martial arguments such as his ball skills, passing, dribbling etc would have been brought forth much often to justify this thought of thinking that he's better than Martial. But of course he simply can't hack it with Martial when we talk about actual footballing skills so we resort to intangible and abilities more required for defenders like defending and all that.
Well said.
And might I add that Martial is visibly improving his workrate and tracking back also, so the gap is getting even smaller.
Work rate is not just a defensive term 
I've repeated myself so many times in this thread
Someone in here, please explain to me why Rashford gets picked over Martial then, if not for the reasons I have explained. The idea that he gets picked because he is better defensively is fecking horse shit, because at 0-0, the teams we are playing are more defensive. We need to break teams down. Why on earth would you try to break a team down by playing 'defensive' players. Why on earth would we be breaking these teams down if Rashford is a 'defensive' player.
The utter and complete delusion in here is hilarious. People are trying to dumb this down to a matter of defensive work rate. Maybe Rashford is pretty fecking good going forward? Maybe he offers movement which Martial cannot? Honestly, someone explain this to me.
I've repeated myself so many times in this thread
Someone in here, please explain to me why Rashford gets picked over Martial then, if not for the reasons I have explained. The idea that he gets picked because he is better defensively is fecking horse shit, because at 0-0, the teams we are playing are more defensive. We need to break teams down. Why on earth would you try to break a team down by playing 'defensive' players. Why on earth would we be breaking these teams down if Rashford is a 'defensive' player.
The utter and complete delusion in here is hilarious. People are trying to dumb this down to a matter of defensive work rate. Maybe Rashford is pretty fecking good going forward? Maybe he offers movement which Martial cannot? Honestly, someone explain this to me.
That's what tends to happen when your points are weak to begin with.Work rate is not just a defensive term
I've repeated myself so many times in this thread
Yeah so weak that our own manager is picking Rashford ahead of Martial and we're winning our games
.It's not fecking rocket science to understand that when Martial gets on to the pitch the game has opened up for him already.
I don't know we still bother to discuss Rashford vs. Martial when we can all agree that Lingard is way better than both and he rarely gets any gametime.
Feck me this thread is a mess.
Martial more important than Pogba and better tactically, Rashfords dribbling is better at unlocking tight defences.
If only we had the luxury of two of the best youngsters in the world while routinely scoring 4 goals a game...
Martial more important than Pogba and better tactically, Rashfords dribbling is better at unlocking tight defences.
If only we had the luxury of two of the best youngsters in the world while routinely scoring 4 goals a game...
Did Jose use those to justify Rashford's selection? Why should any fan justify Rashford's selection?
Problem if you Martial FC just can't see that we have 2 superb youngsters rather than just 1. It's not like Rashford isn't scoring and creating.
Radford and Martial both should start. Problem is few fans are so narrow minded and lose their shit whenever Rashford starts.
I read it, i still don't agree with it. Even if i accept the premise that Rashfords movement is so much better and he thus is better at finding space behind defenders there is two problems with this
1. Against parked buses there is hardly any space to run into
2. Both being right footed means he has to halt his run and reposition himself to aim his cross, often losing any ground he made in a footrace.
It's kinda the same problem we have with Valencia, hes explosive enough to breeze past anyone on his day, but his lackluster technique means he often has to cross from weird angles because hes not comfortable at dribbling in small spaces. Now Rashford obviously is better at beating his man than Valencia, but still not as good as Martial. There have been plenty of examples of players with pace in abundance that still did not make very good wingers because they lacked the guile and trickery to go past their fullbacks
Another example would be Miki/Mata, Miki sure has a lot more pace in him where as Mata is better at dribbling on small spaces, is Miki far superior just because he has more pace? No. When it comes to Rashford/Martial it's even closer. Rashford might be a tad quicker out the starting block, but it's not like Martial is some lumbering oaf exactly
If we are going to oversimplify it we might say Rashford is better at getting into wide positions while Martial is better at cutting inside, generally speaking, which causes the most trouble for defenses? In any case, the qualities Rashford has is better suited for a CF, not a winger. If he gets behind the CB's it often means he get through on goal, where as getting behind the fullback means he has to either finish from an awkward angle or cut inside
Yeah. Going to keep doing these rounds until they both start, I'm afraid. And at the moment, there's little sign of that happening.
I actually think the lack of another serious game changer/match winner on the bench, with serious pace that can cause damage to tired defences when we need to score late on, is weighing on Mourinhos mind.
As much as I like Mata, there's no way he's done enough this season, over these 2, to warrant one of them not starting on the right, or both even interchanging.
I think right now we need to stick with it.
Rashford starting and Martial coming into the game fresh once the tempo has slowed is really changing the match for us.
It's no coincidence that when he is subbed on the goals are flying up. I think Jose likes having this weapon available to him, and maybe Martial is understanding this works for him also. It's building his reputation and confidence, and you could really feel the anticipation when he came on against Palace, and he didn't disappoint.
Yes he will start games, but is the idea of only playing 20 minute cameos in games really that strange?. If he can do more in 20 minutes than he usually would do in 90, that makes more sense right?
Rashford starting and Martial coming into the game fresh once the tempo has slowed is really changing the match for us.
It's no coincidence that when he is subbed on the goals are flying up. I think Jose likes having this weapon available to him, and maybe Martial is understanding this works for him also. It's building his reputation and confidence, and you could really feel the anticipation when he came on against Palace, and he didn't disappoint.
Yes he will start games, but is the idea of only playing 20 minute cameos in games really that strange?. If he can do more in 20 minutes than he usually would do in 90, that makes more sense right?
It's very strange to keep one of your best players on the bench for 70 minutes. I don't buy 'he's better off playing 20 minutes than 90 minutes', that literally never works like that.
I agree. And seeing as we keep steamrolling any team we come up against Mourinho doesn't feel inclined to make any adjustments.
The amount of goals we've scored in late games has, at least in some part, been down to having either Martial or Rashford coming off the bench. What we don't know is if we'd be just as potent with starting them both. I'd love to see it happen but can completely understand Joses decision to hold one back in case we need something extra to unlock a defence.
Both players seem happy with their current roles, Martial in particular when compared to last season.
And therein lies the rub. He has some of the best stats for an attacker in the league but finds himself on the outside looking in. It's not sustainable long term.
It's not even about him vs Rashford. Rashford's doing very well also. They are actually the only two being rotated, Mkhi and Mata seem to have their places nailed and are immune to rotation.
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Yeah, that seems spot on. That age old saying - never change a winning formula. As frustrating as it is for us (though I'm sure we're all happy with the end results - United winning), I can understand it as well, and I can't see when it might change. Maybe when Ibra is back and he's on the bench? He might not have the pace but he has the match winning ability.
But as long as the rotation system is (sort of) fair and both players are happy with their current role, long may the 4-0's continue! I'm sure we'll get to see them both on the pitch later on in the season, as the games become a bit more congested and fatigue/injuries (fingers crossed on that one) start coming into effect.
It is strange, but there's definitely a thing about "impact subs" and people who play better coming into a match. Similar to how Giroud plays at Arsenal, when he starts he doesn't do much, but when subbed he nearly scores every game.
I'm not saying I want Martial to be a sub, I'd love to see him get a starting role in this team as he's definitely good enough. I'm just saying I can see why Jose looks at the stats and performances and thinks "I'm not changing things while it's going well"
Martial isn't a sub in all games. In the last 9 or 10 games, both started alternatively as LW. Rashford is starting more in PL games, Martial in CL. Would be interesting to see if somehow Rashford miss the game then Martial starts in PL and Rashford in CL.
Like few said, both are doing very well for now but both should be starting rather than just one.
Burned him twice
So when Pogba comes back we should stick with fellani so as not to disrupt a winning formula right?
This is one line of argument I can't wrap my head around as it never is applied all across the board and it's just hypocritical in itself
Yeah, that happens when you take the argument too literally. Pogba is only out because he's injured, and Fellaini has stepped up well in his spot. So of course Fellaini will, or should, be dropped when Pogba is fit again. Unless we're going into big games with a change of formation, or someone else needs resting/rotating.
No.
When Martial doesn't start.
Rashford starting isn't an issue. They can play well together.
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