Rashford has started 6 out of the 7 matches we've played in the league...The last 4 consecutive matches..Unless injured, he's starting against Liverpool
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Rashford has started 6 out of the 7 matches we've played in the league...The last 4 consecutive matches..Unless injured, he's starting against Liverpool
I'm convinced our best attack involves Rashford and Martial being on the pitch. Why Mourinho has decided both of them can only play LW, and why he feels Rashford should start all the league games and Martial be a sub is just weird. And Rashford is a bloody right footer who delivered great crosses from RW the few times hes played there too.
Absolutely spot on, this workrate thing has gone over the top at this point, your front 3's job is primarily to make and score goals, I don't see Zidane babbling on about Asensio's workrate and I don't see Emry hammering on Mbappe to play like a secondary fullback, Rashfortd is the better striker, Martial is the better wide forward if you want that role to be an attacking one and trust your CM's and fullbacks to do therir jobs.,
I don't want to completely pin the blame on Mourinho since we don't have a specialist full back and they need more protection than your average ones so can understand his reasoning for picking Rashford over Martial.
Only thing I worry about is Martial's head being turned, people on here are very happy when one of our players are not picked for their National team so that they don't pick up an injury. But they are completely missing the bigger picture, players want to play for their national countries as it brings them a lot of pride, especially the foreign players. Martial not being on the plane to Russia next year will have ramifications for us, especially when you have Deschamps explaining Martial needs more minutes before he can come into his consideration.
I feel we are blessed to have these two amongst our ranks but I hope we don't cater to one over the other too much (I read a rumor that we are looking to offer Rashford a wage rise again, Martial is still on same contract which he signed in 2015) and pick them on merit depending upon their form. It's important for us to keep them both happy and I hope Martial gets enough minutes so he can join French squad for World Cup next summer.
Well, I'm not privy to their contract details, but Rashford is from the academy, Martial came as the most expensive teenager at the time, so I'm sure their contracts were very different to begin with. They're trying to bring Rashford to a level commensurate with his role within the team now.
Martial's on triple what Rashford is currently getting.
From a selfish, United POV, I hope he doesnt go to the WC. More international games to deal with during the season, more time on the pitch for injuries to occur, he cant rest during those two week international breaks and he will be on extended leave after the WC next summer, so wont have a preseason and will be playing catch up during the first two months of the season.
It's not the best way of looking at it, because if he misses the world cup, I wouldn't focus too much on his extended rest and focus more on the huge possibility that he won't even be a part of the team anymore because he'll look to force a move somewhere else where his productivity means a starting role. The only reason he was not called up, besides just Deschamps being Deschamps, is the fact that he's not getting enough playing time. No one can argue with his productivity right now.
France still plays Giroud ahead of the likes of Lacazette. We can all agree just cause you're performing doesnt mean you are gonna get picked for France.
Lacazette still gets called up to the squad though.
Coman played only 391 mins this season with Bayern, been horrible and he gets called to the squad. Deschamps just has no rules or reasons for why he's selecting players.
Our LB situation is definitely a factor, especially now Young is playing there as he's not good defensively, but Jose has mentioned the tactical situation in regards to Martial's performances more than once and it seems to me he mostly uses him when we have extra midfield cover and there's less defensive work required of the wide players than in the 4-2-3-1.
I have read lots of comments here from people happy with him as second fiddle and impact sub and that he's not been picked for France, but while that's fine in tunnel vision and I think English fans in general have less National team interest than the bulk of other nations, you rightly point out that it does matter to most players and Martial isn't getting ahead of Dembele, Lemar and co....as a secondary LW club choice that doesn't start most league games, that will cause us an issue in the long run.
Such prejudice is something I wouldn't understand. Maybe it's because Bayern is a 'bigger' club currently in his eyes than United?
Lol Rashford is the one that struggles against packed defences? Did you see Martial last year? Part of the reason why Martial is on the bench this season is because at 0-0 and when teams sit deep he struggles cutting inside. Once we go 1-0 up the game changes and later on in game Martial comes on and makes use of the space left when teams are chasing games.
It's literally a lot more difficult for us to score at 0-0. Still people think it's Rashford that struggles with packed defences. Martial isn't starting these games for a reason.
You cant just dribble past a packed defence unless your Messi. Even Messi would struggle. People are vastly overrating Martial. Mourinho knows what he is doing.
It depends on what you think is a
"gifable moment".
Apart from that assist against Madrid, I haven't seen anything spectacular leading to his goals and assists this season, but just keeping it simple with good passing/crossing, shooting and positioning, which is a good thing. He obviously has great close control when dribbling at speed, which helps but I feel Rashford can be just as productive while being a more versatile player.
My point is that I don't believe he would be scoring and assisting at this rate, if the roles were reversed between him and Rashford. And we might have even not been performing as well as a team either.
He obviously has put up great numbers so far but as much as people want to deny it, it really is easier to perform coming of the bench when the game is already won. There's not much pressure on you that way, and the opposition leaves you more space to work with when they have to score. You are also fresh while their defense is tired.
I'm not saying this makes that much of a difference to render Martial any less productive than Rashford. I just think that any gain in goals/assists with Martial on the field instead of Rashford wouldn't be big enough to justify giving up the benefits you get with Rashford.
The first goal is the most important. Mourinho knows if we can get the first goal we're probably going to win the game. If that's by defending the 1-0 (Southampton) or blitzing teams in the last 10 minutes (Everton, Swansea, West Ham etc). The first eleven and the team that starts the game is therefore tasked with the most important and difficult part of the game. We COULDN'T break teams down last year.
After we take the lead and our opponents change shape trying to chase the game, we react by either getting Martial on to exploit the space, or bringing on Herrera/Lingard to close the games. I don't get how people are coming up with the notion that Martial is better against packed defences. Cutting inside and doing the, at this point, almost trademark dribble he does is easy to defend when you have 8 defenders. I keep talking about this context but people bang on about him coming off the bench and scoring as if the game hasn't been changed by the first eleven (and Rashford) by then.
If you want to forget that Martial failed with this type of movement time and time again last year then that's on you. Mourinho clearly hasn't. Rashford starts and we're getting the first goal and winning games.
After we take the lead and our opponents change shape trying to chase the game, we react by either getting Martial on to exploit the space, or bringing on Herrera/Lingard to close the games. I don't get how people are coming up with the notion that Martial is better against packed defences. Cutting inside and doing the, at this point, almost trademark dribble he does is easy to defend when you have 8 defenders. I keep talking about this context but people bang on about him coming off the bench and scoring as if the game hasn't been changed by the first eleven (and Rashford) by then.
If you want to forget that Martial failed with this type of movement time and time again last year then that's on you. Mourinho clearly hasn't. Rashford starts and we're getting the first goal and winning games.
You should clearly watch Rashford's video.
Code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpOqNfam1lc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcT7i4c7KtwYou do realise football didn't start last season right? You keep going on like your some beacon of objectivity but your attitude towards Martial in a number of threads is telling.
No, it's because the last few times Martial was called up for France, he played truly badly and lost Deschamps' confidence. He has an eye on him and will call him up for the next games.
I just said Martial and Rashford are both in the bracket below Mbappe. I know Martial is talented, we just have to look at the context of games and from Mourinho's perspective. I am giving reasons why Rashford is preferred at the moment.
There's people claiming that Rashford is only getting picked because he's more 'defensive', that he isn't 'explosive', that Martial is better 'tactically', or that Martial is better against packed defences. I'm just putting across why I think people are incorrect regarding these things. I don't have an agenda against Martial. I want to win games and that's what we are doing.
Fair enough, a lot of the criticism of Rashford is OTT but you do seem to go a bit OTT too. It just comes across like you're belittling Martial to defend Rashford.
This is how I see it as well. Martials game is too one dimensional to work against a parked bus. You beat that kind of defense either by being clever and creative with your passing and movement around their wall of players(this is where Mata and Mikhi are useful), or just pass it out wide and keep banging in crosses. You also need players who can shoot from distance to force some of their players to come out. Keeping the width is very important as well in order to stretch them and keep them from congesting the middle.
Some will argue that a dribbler like Martial can be useful in these situations if nothing else is working, to take on players and create confusion among the opposition. Which is true but it's generally very difficult to get through a parked bus this way. Especially when you combine a player like Martial who doesn't stay wide with a FB who isn't up there to keep the width.
On the other hand, his strengths make him ideal for counterattacking. Which means he should be suited to start against the big teams when we don't expect to have much possesion. But the problem with this is, that he would be tasked with helping to defend on the wings, and this means he would be spending most of the game defending, which isn't one of his strengths.
I think the main problem for Mourinho here when it comes to Martial is because of tactical reasons. He probably feels that he has to make to many adjustments to accommodate Martial, which he is obviously reluctant to do. I think the reason Martial is only competing with Rashford for that LW spot, is because Mata and Mikhi are different kind of players. They bring something to the game which Martial doesn't. Rashford and Martial are similar type of players, so naturally, Mourinho doesn't play them together.
I can only see them starting together in matches where we're playing on the counter against teams that offer more threat, as I don't see the need for Mata when we're expecting them to have most of the possession. We haven't played any top team yet so I guess we'll see if that happens against Liverpool. I wouldn't be surprised though if he went with Lingard instead of Martial, or maybe loose Mata for Lingard and play Martial-Lingard-Rashford. This way Lingard can help on defense while Martial can focus on attacking.
That is if we play 4231 but it could easily be 433 with Herrera replacing one of the attackers. In that case, it's more likely it will be Rashford and Mikhi on the wings, for their workrate. We could also go for the 343 with wingbacks, which complicates things even more.
We'll see what Mourinho is planning for Liverpool, but I doubt he will trust Martial to start games of this kind of importance just yet. Although, I'm curious of how he would do, I'm also afraid that if he fails badly, his confidence which he's gained so far during the season might take a huge knock. So I say it's better that we keep using him as we are now and gradually keep giving him more time to give him the chance to show he can do it when it matters.
Sorry for such a long post by the way.
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....what?
Martial went through a rough patch last year true, but that was because of his problems off the pitch, did you forget about his entire debut season where he single handedly carried our attack and became our top goal scorer? Rashford had some real stinkers of his own last year as well, as did most of our attacking players.
What does qualities does Rashford offer that makes him better suited against parked buses?
I also think that Jose knows what hes doing, but vastly overrating him? If we are looking at the stats so far Martial has 6/4 in 281 mins (a goal/assist every 28 mins) while Rashford has 7/3 in 504 mins. Does that mean Marital is twice as effective and thus twice the player? No that would be silly, but claiming Rashford is such a superior choice is a strech
No, it was not because of his off field problems. Blaming his performances on off field issues is a cop out, flat out. Yes it could have affected him slightly, but it's no excuse. Despite that, the pattern of his movements are still similar regardless. He is good at what he is good at, no one is disputing that.
In his debut season, our team was built around getting him away. He was our outlet. This is a different team and system. He isn't the main man, and its for the best. We are playing much better, we are getting goals across the pitch. Im not denying he was very good in his debut season, in fact he was my favourite player. That doesn't change the fact that last season has had an impact on Mourinho this year. He has seen what both Martial and Rashford can offer, and in this system he prefers Rashford for many reasons.
Rashford is the better choice at the moment. People claiming Martial is by far the superior player is what is off about this discussion. Mourinho is picking Rashford for a reason.
No one can really argue against my points in regards to us breaking teams down, the change in context of games etc either. It's a fact that it is a lot more difficult to score at 0-0 than it is 2 or 3 goals up. It's a fact that we couldng break teams down last year. In the grand scheme of things, the team on the pitch from the start is taking care of the more difficult stuff. Coming off the bench against teams chasing games is the easy bit. We never had that luxuary last year.
You keep slating martial due to his last season form but conveniently forget rashford also had a pretty tragic couple of months of terrible form and was only lucky he had a manager that played him back into form whereas martial didn't have that luxury, notwithstanding that rashford only contributed to 2 more goals than martial in 11 more games so if I were you I'd be more hesitant in using last season to put martial down
It's about play styles and the type of players they are. Why is everyone missing that point. Just because they play in the same position does not mean they play in the same way or offer the same things. It's pretty simple. Martial isn't going to dribble through a parked bus. The reason why he looked so poor last year was to some extent, down to the fact that his way of playing wasn't effective against teams that sit deep. Which is why this season, Rashford starts games and Martial comes of the bench.
I'm not slating him, I'm telling it how it is. I'm giving you reasons why Rashford is preferred. I don't care how pretty it is seeing Martial dribbling into acres of space, I want us to win games. Scoring goals at 2-0 and 3-0 up is not as impressive as breaking down a team at 0-0. Rashford starts these games and we are breaking teams down. Mourinho is doing amazing. Martial is scoring goals when teams open up late on in games. That's great, but its obviously not the same playing against a team sitting deep. Not anyone can argue against that.
Rashford is more adaptable to a system change because he has superior movement compared to Martial. Most of Martial's work is cutting inside with the ball at his feet. There's not much more he can offer compared to last year against teams that park the bus. He is going to be doing the same things, unless of course he improves his movement off the ball.
Once we get the first goal, I'm confident we can win the game. Whether thats blitzing teams in the last 10 mins or defending the 1-0. Currently Rashford is part of the team that starts games to break the 0-0 scoreline. After that the game changes, there's more space for Martial to use his dribbling skills to kill teams off.
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Oh no you don't, you're not taking this discussion back to some intangibles only you seems capable of following so we'll just stick to facts here;
Fact no 1:
You say last season martial was poor, agreed but rashford was also poor for months of the season where he didn't score but the manager kept playing him till he caught some form
Fact no 2
Martial in his poor season was more productive than rashford with 8 goals and 8 assists in 42 appearances to rashford's 11 goals and 7 assists in 53 appearances
Fact no 3
Rashford was substituted onto "tired legs" last season 23 times to martial's 14 so shouldn't he have performed much better than martial with the added boost of facing "tired legs" more often?
It's not about "tired legs". I've said this a million times. The shapes of teams change once we score. Teams cant sit back after they've conceded, they need to score a goal. They open up.
Martial's poor form last year is partly down to the way he plays. He cuts inside and does his dribble...into parked busses. It didn't work. Rashford is better equipped. SO he starts the games because at 0-0 teams are gonna sit back against us. Once he helps us score, the opposition open up. We kill teams in the last 10 mins. There's space for Martial to run into for the last 10 mins. I've said this a million times.
Instead of looking at stats all the time, look at the context of games. That's what I am discussing here.
Easy there. We have seen how Jose messed up with KDB, Lukaku and Salah.
Explain why that isn't a concern?
The best player against Real Madrid in the preseason game who absolutely wrecked the Real defence, didn't play a single minute in the supercup.
We have troubles getting out of our half vs Southampton, Mourinho does not bring on the only player who can push them back.
Go back and have a look at Martial's debut season. He was already better than Rashford is now. Now, Martial is a on a different league.
Hence, the pecking order should be reversed.
Capiche?
At Arsenal, players grow soft because of lack of competition for places and an over protective Arsene Wenger. I am glad that Mourinho is tougher on the players e.g. Shaw, Martial, Smalling and making them work harder and strive for better. Martial and Rashford have both flourished as a result. The competition for a starting place is good for both at this stage of their development.
I see great improvement in Martial and his willingness to have a go at the defenders is exactly what Mourinho had been urging him to do. Between Rashford and Martial, I would say both at almost on par at the moment and I will be happy to see either of them start. I feel that if Martial can continue with the level of performance he is showing right now, he will become a starter ahead of Rashford.
Eventually, I will like to see both as starters for United. Exciting times!
I see great improvement in Martial and his willingness to have a go at the defenders is exactly what Mourinho had been urging him to do. Between Rashford and Martial, I would say both at almost on par at the moment and I will be happy to see either of them start. I feel that if Martial can continue with the level of performance he is showing right now, he will become a starter ahead of Rashford.
Eventually, I will like to see both as starters for United. Exciting times!
Why is Rashford better equipped for teams that sit back? Rashford running in behind is his biggest strength and how he gets most of his chances. It's harder to do this against teams that sit in and defend deep and surely would be better suited to Martials intricacies than Rashfords more direct style?
He stretches play outwide when he did it well. You can't allow him free crossing. When you close him him down, there is space between the defender which Mkhi Mata ghosted into.
Martial creates the same space, but in a different way. Everytime he gets on the ball 2 players drag towards him creating the same space in midfield.
The way you suggest it's like Messi in Argentine team. There is not enough width and players doing the selfless work to stretch defense, which means as good as Messi is, it's still impossible to drill through the wall of defense.
The way Martial plays mean that you have to have top class full back/wing back which we don't have.
Martial on ball may be able to do that, but he's easier to one for one mark off the ball which mean he doesn't receive the ball comfortably to start doing what he is best at. Rashford is tougher to mark off the ball as he is making different kind of run, one that trickier for defender to mark. It lessens the dependence on the full back.
With that point out of the way, Young reemerge is a blessing in disguise for Martial. I can see Martial would get starting more as Young provides better width and quite a decent crosser.
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I can't make out if you're suggesting I'm saying Martial is like Messi or not? I'm just saying it's obvious when we play that Martial gets double teamed quite often which must mean that there is space elsewhere in midfield.
If the only reason for playing Rashford over Martial is that he creates more space for others it seems a poor argument.
I personally think it's down to defensive work rate earlier in the game when Jose wants us to not give them a sniff of a chance. When we're winning he relaxes slightly and brings Martial on.
I just don't agree with the view that it is due to Martial not being able to unlock packed defences.
Martial can be marked out of the game by 1 marker off the ball. By the time, he adjusts, since our supporting full back is not good enough, they can double team on him without leaving anyone else free.
Rashford stretch play which draw his marker out of his comfortable zone. Rashford is good enough 1 vs 1, so team also want to give cover for the main marker. The way Rashford running in behind means that the second defender would take longer to come and double team on him.
Martial gets quickly closed down and double teams because he ain't as good moving off ball.
If you watch the last few games where Rashford started, he was allowed less defensive work. Vs Stoke, Everton, Soton in first half, and Crystal Palace. He didn't get asked to track back as much
Edit: the Messi in Argentina shirt point is as amazing dribbler as he is, he can't break a thick deep lying defense by his dribbling as all. Barcelona team did a great job providing the width which helps. Argentine has bunch of central players, even though with great tight area dribbling skill beside Messi. They still struggle. Why? No enough width, stretch play = easier for opposition to defend.
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I understand your point but I don't see it as the only way of breaking down those teams. Martial if marked by just one player has shown he can get by them using his dribbling.
The doubling up of him happens constantly and if we move the ball quickly back centrally we find gaps like we have so far this season.
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