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I agree, stats are overused. And I do judge players with my eyes. And Martial has been average, to poor. As have all the other wide men.This is why stats are for wankers.
We judge players with our eyes. Might as well not watch games just wait for Opta to collate the figures and decide who did well.
Thank you. "Literally nothing" wasn't the best phrase to use, typical internet hyperbole.You see, I agree completely with your points about how they have been willing to track back. And how he shouldn't pander to youth. And that Martial's attitude has been bad.
And you're right, I shouldn't use the phrase of agenda, I regret that, as I don't like that, nor "fanboy" nor "hater" as terms which are used.
But what made me feel like you had an agenda is that you said he's done "literally nothing". That's simply not true. At the very worst you could say he's been as bad as the others. But he has done some good, and even great stuff, at times. As few and far between as they've been. Have the others really been better though? Worked harder, maybe.
Out of interest, where did you get your stats? I used who scored.
Martial: League 994, 3 + 4. Europa: 394, 1. Involved in a goal every 173.5 minutes.
Lingard: League 1002, 1 + 2. Europa: 274, 2 + 1. Involved in a goal every 212.6 minutes.
And it's up to Martial to prove he is good enough. As I said we haven't got time to play Martial out of his sulk, have you not read this forum after every game we don't win? Mourinho has players he can count on to perform to the job he gives them, who aren't playing shit and sulking like a child.
Yeah and Martial came on and did even less. Lingard has scored important goals for us this season, Martial has done literally nothing. You think a player who wanted to regain his starting position who actually try when coming on, until he shows he actually deserves to be playing, he doesn't deserve to play a single minute.
Rashford is just as good as him, as a striker, in my opinion. And Lingard is much harder working. Martial hasn't shown anything world class this season overall, bar the odd flash every now and then. In fact, he's shown himself to be mostly one dimensional and predictable. He hasn't added anything to what he showed last year - the difference was he was more or less an unknown entity when he joined us, and defences didn't know how to cope with him.
It's true that a fortune has been spent on him. At the same time, I don't think a player deserves to play based upon his price tag.
That is not right-it seems we have found the new whipping boy-remember when it was Darren Fletcher that got the stick? Fletcher eventually turned out to be a favourite-SAF saw something and persevered. Not everyone can be Ronaldo
Oh seriously?Stop spouting a load of bollocks mate seriously. Martial despite being in and out of the team and way off form for most of the season has more goals and a lot more assists from basically the same amount of games.
Oh seriously?
And has done feck all for the team in any other department, open your eyes and actually watch his performances, they've been shit this season. Unbelievable that someone who has acted like such a child this season can get such blinkered support.
Lingard has been crap, Martial has been crap, but Lingard has at least worked for the team. That's the overriding point you seem incapable of grasping. Of course Martial has more talent, we can't wait around while he sulked and decides he wants to perform, we've got points to win and trophies to challenge for.
'Plays like Obertan', ouch!http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...nchester-united-news-anthony-martial-12893414 This article certainly isn't one for those who love him!
Take a look at Mhkitaryan and Rashford, both won their positions in the starting XI from appearances off the bench or the sporadic starts they were afforded. When they were given the opportunity they took it with both hands, and Shaw looks to be doing the same. Hell Martial was given a massive opportunity against Liverpool and he spent the gsme in the pocket of some 18 year old nobody who'll end up playing championship football. Every time he is given a chance by Mourinho he let's him down. The games he has performed in have been against relegation battlers, no wonder Jose doesn't trust him in big games.My first posts in this thread have been today i don't blindly support him, in fact i rarely even discuss him on here. Nowhere have i said he's been great this season.
But when you have a special talent on your books, in my opinion you should go the extra mile to develop that talent. Watching how Mourinho is handling this guy is frustrating as feck.
If Martial has been as bad as you say (he hasn't) yet he still has almost twice the goals and assists compared to Lingard from roughly the same amount of games. Then that tells me that even in relatively poor form compared to this talent he is still a much more productive player. And one which we should be playing more games if Lingard is the alternative.
You're right, his form isn't returning. The thing is though, at this, crucial stage in the season, can we wait 10 games for him to maybe play himself into form? I don't think so. Especially given that he doesn't give as much work effort as the others. He's clearly the better winger than Lingard or Rashford (I prefer Rashford as a striker to him though) .. but he's just not putting the work rate in, consistently. He does at times, but not consistently, I don't think. So I don't think we can bend to the will of a potentially sulky player.But its chicken and the egg mate isn't it. We keep giving him the odd appearance and his form isn't returning so leaving him out isn't working. At some point Mourinho's going to have to bite the bullet and play the kid for a good run of games to see if that works. With Mata out for probably the rest of the season it seems like the perfect time..
Take a look at Mhkitaryan and Rashford, both won their positions in the starting XI from appearances off the bench or the sporadic starts they were afforded. When they were given the opportunity they took it with both hands, and Shaw looks to be doing the same. Hell Martial was given a massive opportunity against Liverpool and he spent the gsme in the pocket of some 18 year old nobody who'll end up playing championship football. Every time he is given a chance by Mourinho he let's him down. The games he has performed in have been against relegation battlers, no wonder Jose doesn't trust him in big games.
Hes expecting to have his career handed to him on plate, he needs to work for it. I really hope he realises this.
Jose's teams have a mental toughness. Martial, Shaw, Smalling, Mikki for me are history for this reason. They do not have the mentality to play in a Jose team, and Martial in my opinion will never be there. Him like the others are too fragile and need too much tlc to get a tune out of them...
Theyre doing better than Martial, thats for sure.Not one of those guys is having a good season. They're all doing worse than they have previously. These guys demonstrate the exact opposite of what you're attempting here.
That's why some ( including myself) think Mourinho may have something to do with with this widespread drop in form.
Theyre doing better than Martial, thats for sure.
Yes Rashford and Mhkitaryan are clearly doing being better. Shaw isnt a comparable, but he has at least come out and fought for his position.Shaw's doing better? He's been benched nearly all season.
The other two are slightly better but I'd never hold them up and say look what can happen if you just take your chance.
Reality is that all four of these players(Rashford is understandable) are having difficult seasons.
Since he was publicly criticized. Yes.Shaw's doing better? He's been benched nearly all season.
The other two are slightly better but I'd never hold them up and say look what can happen if you just take your chance.
Reality is that all four of these players(Rashford is understandable) are having difficult seasons.
Since he was publicly criticized. Yes.
You're right, his form isn't returning. The thing is though, at this, crucial stage in the season, can we wait 10 games for him to maybe play himself into form? I don't think so. Especially given that he doesn't give as much work effort as the others. He's clearly the better winger than Lingard or Rashford (I prefer Rashford as a striker to him though) .. but he's just not putting the work rate in, consistently. He does at times, but not consistently, I don't think. So I don't think we can bend to the will of a potentially sulky player.
Take a look at Mhkitaryan and Rashford, both won their positions in the starting XI from appearances off the bench or the sporadic starts they were afforded. When they were given the opportunity they took it with both hands, and Shaw looks to be doing the same. Hell Martial was given a massive opportunity against Liverpool and he spent the gsme in the pocket of some 18 year old nobody who'll end up playing championship football. Every time he is given a chance by Mourinho he let's him down. The games he has performed in have been against relegation battlers, no wonder Jose doesn't trust him in big games.
Hes expecting to have his career handed to him on plate, he needs to work for it. I really hope he realises this.
Not really, he's another player who's yet to start 5 games in a row this season. He's get a few more starts recently because of Mata's injury. But for that he'd likely still be on the bench with Martial most games.
Not really, he's another player who's yet to start 5 games in a row this season. He's get a few more starts recently because of Mata's injury. But for that he'd likely still be on the bench with Martial most games.
If hes replaced by a better player, is that a bad thing?
He doesn't have double Lingards numbers
Funny that, considering Mata has played on the right almost all season and Rashford on the left.
Yeah agree. Trying to hard? Overthinking it? Martial I mean not yourself.
That stat though about him not having three consecutive games since September. If true it can't be helping him. I don't see any positive in handling a young (ish) player like that.
This, absolutely. Fecking this. If we sell him I'll be sickened.It would be a terrible thing if he is replaced by anyone other than Neymar, Hazard, Ronaldo or someone of their talent on the left.
If hes replaced by a better player, is that a bad thing?
After two years? Yeah that would be a terrible thing. When you think about the fact that Hazard had more games for Lille than Martial has in his entire career, you can understand why Martial isn't even close to be the finished product, he needs coaching, he needs teaching and if United aren't willing to provide that, it's a really sad state of affair.
Is Mourinho a good coach/teacher for this type of player? Not saying he isn't btw I'm just not sure if he is.
Has he worked with an attacker this young and inexperienced and made him a good/top player?
After two years? Yeah that would be a terrible thing. When you think about the fact that Hazard had more games for Lille than Martial has in his entire career, you can understand why Martial isn't even close to be the finished product, he needs coaching, he needs teaching and if United aren't willing to provide that, it's a really sad state of affair.
If you believe its purely experience based rather than attitude then we should. Or loan him out.
But i'm not convinced its not his attitude that is holding him back.
Martial has 7 goals and 7 assists.
Lingard has 5 goals and 3 assists.
Thats close enough to double in my book.
Asked about his former United teammate, he told SFR Sport: "Last year he had an exceptional season. He had a good relationship with (Louis) van Gaal who made him play every game, he scored many goals, he was very important.
"This year, it's a bit more difficult with Mourinho. I have the impression, and maybe he also has that impression, that if he makes a bad game out of four, he is directly relegated to the bench. It is difficult for him, he is still young.
"I hope that they will give him more chances and that he will be entitled to some mistakes. We must leave him alone and progress like the other players."
https://le10sport.com/football/angl...hneiderlin-sur-la-situation-de-martial-305997
That's how it appears to many here. Not surprising that it's also how it comes across to someone who was part of the squad. Jose's style of management has a positive impact and sometimes has a negative impact. On our younger lot it's mostly had a negative impact with all of them being a bit shit this season. Specifically with Martial, the relationship with the manager definitely looks to be a big factor in him having sub par season. Even when he does something good, you always feel he's small mistakes away from being kicked back to the bench. He had a good run of games Lingard could only dream of having yet somehow it took a couple of Lingard standard performances for him to get dropped.Schneiderlin on Martial:
