[pacifictheme]

He'll be replaced by some 28 year old who "does the job". His days are numbered.

If hes replaced by a better player, is that a bad thing?

 

[Raees]

For everyone looking for excuses for Martial just stop. It's not just a problem of confidence and talent but mainly attitude. If you are tasked to play as a winger be positive try to beat a man, not try three dribbles and then only pass backwards if they don't happen. And if you mess up a dribble no problem but track back and fight for the recovery of the ball like Rashford, Lingard and Mkhitaryan are doing. Martial was given 30 minutes yesterday. He didn't show any kind of hunger to show the manager that he should be starting more often. If he is not willing to fight for his place then goodbye. This is the problem with so many pampered softies in younger generation nowadays. As soon as something doesn't go their way the head drops, they down tools. No leadership, no willpower, no winning mentality. Toughen the feck up and show some fight. Just think about it imagine if you would be given a chance in European competition for 30 minutes of a match, defenders already tiring. You got to play for Manchester fuc.king United you would definitely put all you have in those 30 minutes to prove that you belong on the pitch. Martial is currently giving 25%. Mourinho challenges players to get them to play to their maximum potential. If someone isn't putting his all in he won't last long with him.

You have to adapt your management with the kids of today.

I'm not saying Martial has been perfect and there is no guarantee he'd have developed properly even with a more kinder manager but no doubt that right now he's not even able to dribble at all which is definitely not normal. It's a reflection of his mental state right now not his ability. Close control whilst running at speed is his best attribute and yesterday nowhere to be seen.

He's clearly unhappy and it's just a bad fit with this manager.

It's easy to say he should be grateful he's even getting a game. But he's gone from being the star man in his first season to being dropped.. and whenever he has done well, still gets dropped and others who play poorly still get selected time and time again for example Fellaini or Lingard. So from his perspective he probably thinks feck it.

 

[Womp]

You have to adapt your management with the kids of today.

I'm not saying Martial has been perfect and there is no guarantee he'd have developed properly even with a more kinder manager but no doubt that right now he's not even able to dribble at all which is definitely not normal. It's a reflection of his mental state right now not his ability. Close control whilst running at speed is his best attribute and yesterday nowhere to be seen.

He's clearly unhappy and it's just a bad fit with this manager.

It's easy to say he should be grateful he's even getting a game. But he's gone from being the star man in his first season to being dropped.. and whenever he has done well, still gets dropped and others who play poorly still get selected time and time again for example Fellaini or Lingard. So from his perspective he probably thinks feck it.

Question for people with a similar opinion to you, do you think SAF was in the wrong when he treated Nani literally the exact same way?

 

[Raees]

Question for people with a similar opinion to you, do you think SAF was in the wrong when he treated Nani literally the exact same way?

I do. He preferred the one dimensional Valencia and our attacking play lacked sparkle and United weren't as enterprising on the wings as they used to be.

For me we should have taken the rough with the smooth when it came to Nani as most games he offered a threat and kept the opposition guessing even if he wasn't at the races decision making wise. I thought Fergie was too harsh with Nani. As a support winger he was good.. Fergie was expecting Ronaldo level performance from him and allowing Valencia to put in mediocre performances and still retain his place.

 

[Womp]

I do. He preferred the one dimensional Valencia and our attacking play lacked sparkle and United weren't as enterprising on the wings as they used to be.

For me we should have taken the rough with the smooth when it came to Nani as most games he offered a threat and kept the opposition guessing even if he wasn't at the races decision making wise. I thought Fergie was too harsh with Nani. As a support winger he was good.. Fergie was expecting Ronaldo level performance from him and allowing Valencia to put in mediocre performances and still retain his place.

Fair play to you then, good to see you're consistent in your opinions. I also don't think it's the right way to go, but all managers unfortunately are going to have their favourites, players they can rely on. Costa for example was doing very well under Pep at Bayern, now he can barely get a look in.

On the plus side, at least Rashford's hardwork seems to have gotten him onto that list for Jose.

 

[POF]

It seems more a lack of confidence than lack of effort to me. He tried to take on the full back with his first touch, failed and then seemed scared to try again.

Martial is an incredible talent but his off the ball movement is as bad as any player in the league.

 

[Freak]

Second season syndrome. He needs to go on a break, clear his head and come back again all fresh for next season. The summer can't come fast enough for him.

 

[JPRouve]

Wasn't Martial already playing there most of last season ? What is this shift you're talking about ?

According to Mourinho the roles are different and I think he is right. Mourinho wants a more traditional winger while LVG wanted a wide forward.

But you know my position on Martial, I expressed it a year ago. Martial's flaws were identified at Monaco and it was said that Jardim was on his back. Martial had for mission to improve his shooting, his pressing and his movements off the ball which he didn't do last year.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

What a disappointing season from Martial himself and Mourinho in getting the best out of brightest young talent. I'm not even sure why he keeps getting dropped. He has one bad game and gets dropped whereas others can be rubbish game after game. Then he has a promising substitute appearance and doesn't start two games in a row and has the average Lingard starting ahead of him.

 

[JPRouve]

What a disappointing season from Martial himself and Mourinho in getting the best out of brightest young talent. I'm not even sure why he keeps getting dropped. He has one bad game and gets dropped whereas others can be rubbish game after game. Then he has a promising substitute appearance and doesn't start two games in a row and has the average Lingard starting ahead of him.

Whether football fans like it or not, whether they want to use the "kids these days" nonsense or not, the reality is that players need the right environment to develop, you just have to look at Coman or Henry with Juventus. Sometimes clubs, managers and players don't fit together. Football history is full of players who thrived with a type of manager and didn't with an other type.

 

[sokol11]

I do. He preferred the one dimensional Valencia and our attacking play lacked sparkle and United weren't as enterprising on the wings as they used to be.

For me we should have taken the rough with the smooth when it came to Nani as most games he offered a threat and kept the opposition guessing even if he wasn't at the races decision making wise. I thought Fergie was too harsh with Nani. As a support winger he was good.. Fergie was expecting Ronaldo level performance from him and allowing Valencia to put in mediocre performances and still retain his place.

Regarding Nani, he had a different problem. He lacked a good footballing brain. Outside of a small window where he performed very good his decision making was generally just awful and that was on a good day. Later when his confidence also plummeted he literally fecked most of the things he attempted on a football field. A similar marverick is maybe Yannick Carrasco who also doesn't play regularly for 90 minutes for Athletico Madrid due to his fluctuation in performance. On a good day he looks like a world beater, but on a bad day not so much. With Mourinho there is only one way of doing it, with commitment. If you don't want to do that there is the door.

 

[MadMike]

Fair play to you then, good to see you're consistent in your opinions. I also don't think it's the right way to go, but all managers unfortunately are going to have their favourites, players they can rely on. Costa for example was doing very well under Pep at Bayern, now he can barely get a look in.

On the plus side, at least Rashford's hardwork seems to have gotten him onto that list for Jose.

Also you guys are forgetting something else, in this Nani analogy. Nani came here as a 20yo and was here till he was 27. He played a lot at the start and that culminated in his 3rd and 4rd season (10/11 and 11/12, when he was 23-25 yo) when he got the most minutes and starts. The seasons where Fergie lost faith in him we he last two (12/13 and 13/14) when he was 25-27

In other words, apart from the unrealistic expectation on Nani to be Ronaldo, Fergie did genuinely have faith in his talent until his mid-twenties. When it became obvious Nani was going to be forever inconsistent and that you would simply have to accept the bad with the good with him, he ditched him. He opted for Valencia who was steadily average, instead of ranging from very good to infurating.

The situation is different here since Martial is still 21. Fergie showed Nani a lot of faith at that stage. Mourinho is doing the reverse. He's showing no faith in his young, talented (but very erratic and temperamental) winger but he's showing more faith in 24yo Lingard who's frankly showing no real improvement in the last 4-5 years since he's burst on the scene. Not in terms of consistency of performances, for sure.

Fergie used to put a protective arm around talented young players and shielded them from a lot of (sometimes deserved) criticism. Mourinho only does that for young players if they are busting a gut to tackle, track back, win the ball etc. etc. His protection of young players is not unconditional like Fergie's was.

 

[Drainy]

Appears that his confidence was knocked by the Euros. He's not recovered yet which is worrying, but he is young so is bound to have difficult spells.

 

[Womp]

Also you guys are forgetting something else, in this Nani analogy. Nani came here as a 20yo and was here till he was 27. He played a lot at the start and that culminated in his 3rd and 4rd season (10/11 and 11/12, when he was 23-25 yo) when he got the most minutes and starts. The seasons where Fergie lost faith in him we he last two (12/13 and 13/14) when he was 25-27

In other words, apart from the unrealistic expectation on Nani to be Ronaldo, Fergie did genuinely have faith in his talent until his mid-twenties. When it became obvious Nani was going to be forever inconsistent and that you would simply have to accept the bad with the good with him, he ditched him. He opted for Valencia who was steadily average, instead of ranging from very good to infurating.

The situation is different here since Martial is still 21. Fergie showed Nani a lot of faith at that stage. Mourinho is doing the reverse. He's showing no faith in his young, talented (but very erratic and temperamental) winger but he's showing more faith in 24yo Lingard who's frankly showing no real improvement in the last 4-5 years since he's burst on the scene. Not in terms of consistency of performances, for sure.

Fergie used to put a protective arm around talented young players and shielded them from a lot of (sometimes deserved) criticism. Mourinho only does that for young players if they are busting a gut to tackle, track back, win the ball etc. etc. His protection of young players is not unconditional like Fergie's was.

Comparing Martial this season to Nani in 2011 is laughable. He was along with Berbatov, by far our best player and carrying us. If Martial was showing any form even remotely close to that, he'd be playing. I agree with your point on youngsters though, but it's evident that players with the right mentality will flourish, look at Rashford. He's having a difficult season, but he's still busting a gut to try and get back on track, I don't see the same determination from Martial. Jose will protect and give everything to players, who give everything to him.

In fact, even in Nani's 11 season, he was a mainstay in our team and was in unstoppable form on the right, wasn't he instantly shoved out to the left once Valencia came back from injury, hampering his form? Valencia was a favourite of SAF and Nani was not. There's nothing wrong with that, every manager is going to have players they can rely on.

 

[Raees]

Also you guys are forgetting something else, in this Nani analogy. Nani came here as a 20yo and was here till he was 27. He played a lot at the start and that culminated in his 3rd and 4rd season (10/11 and 11/12, when he was 23-25 yo) when he got the most minutes and starts. The seasons where Fergie lost faith in him we he last two (12/13 and 13/14) when he was 25-27

In other words, apart from the unrealistic expectation on Nani to be Ronaldo, Fergie did genuinely have faith in his talent until his mid-twenties. When it became obvious Nani was going to be forever inconsistent and that you would simply have to accept the bad with the good with him, he ditched him. He opted for Valencia who was steadily average, instead of ranging from very good to infurating.

The situation is different here since Martial is still 21. Fergie showed Nani a lot of faith at that stage. Mourinho is doing the reverse. He's showing no faith in his young, talented (but very erratic and temperamental) winger but he's showing more faith in 24yo Lingard who's frankly showing no real improvement in the last 4-5 years since he's burst on the scene. Not in terms of consistency of performances, for sure.

Fergie used to put a protective arm around talented young players and shielded them from a lot of (sometimes deserved) criticism. Mourinho only does that for young players if they are busting a gut to tackle, track back, win the ball etc. etc. His protection of young players is not unconditional like Fergie's was.

To be fair Valencia after 10/11 was below par for United level and steadily below par but because he had a more industrial coverage of the pitch he was favoured which is very similar to the Lingard and Martial situation.

I'd much prefer to gamble on the talented player especially if the rest of your side is pretty solid as Fergies was defensively and ours is under Jose. They'll get you wins and entertain the fans.

 

[kouroux]

According to Mourinho the roles are different and I think he is right. Mourinho wants a more traditional winger while LVG wanted a wide forward.

But you know my position on Martial, I expressed it a year ago. Martial's flaws were identified at Monaco and it was said that Jardim was on his back. Martial had for mission to improve his shooting, his pressing and his movements off the ball which he didn't do last year.

This is his weakest tool for me. The boy doesn't know how to strike the ball, he just knows how to curl it.

 

[Womp]

According to Mourinho the roles are different and I think he is right. Mourinho wants a more traditional winger while LVG wanted a wide forward.

But you know my position on Martial, I expressed it a year ago. Martial's flaws were identified at Monaco and it was said that Jardim was on his back. Martial had for mission to improve his shooting, his pressing and his movements off the ball which he didn't do last year.

This is the biggest concern of all those things for me, it's basically non-existent. He could raise his game several levels if he added this to his game, yet he seems completely incapable.

 

[JPRouve]

This is the biggest concern of all those things for me, it's basically non-existent. He could raise his game several levels if he added this to his game, yet he seems completely incapable.

Well, that's something that coaches develop in their players. Personally I blame LVG, Mourinho and Martial for that, it's ridiculous to even pretend that only one of them is responsible.

 

[MadMike]

Comparing Martial this season to Nani in 2011 is laughable. He was along with Berbatov, by far our best player and carrying us. If Martial was showing any form even remotely close to that, he'd be playing. I agree with your point on youngsters though, but it's evident that players with the right mentality will flourish, look at Rashford. He's having a difficult season, but he's still busting a gut to try and get back on track, I don't see the same determination from Martial. Jose will protect and give everything to players, who give everything to him.

In fact, even in Nani's 11 season, he was a mainstay in our team and was in unstoppable form on the right, wasn't he instantly shoved out to the left once Valencia came back from injury, hampering his form? Valencia was a favourite of SAF and Nani was not. There's nothing wrong with that, every manager is going to have players they can rely on.

Martial's 2nd season is comparable to Nani's bad second season. '11 was Nani's 4th season, not his 2nd and I didn't compare Martial now to Nani '11 so not sure where you got that. Martial was carrying us last season, so he's showed already his quality for this club. My point was Fergie showed faith in Nani for 4 years in order for him to have good seasons in 11/12 and 12/13. Do you see Mou showing faith in Martial for 4 seasons?

Also Mourinho has modified Martial's role for me. He's playing more as winger than a forward and he's got to track back a lot more than he did under LVG. And apart from that is the fact he's getting no run of games whatsoever.

I fully agree with your point that Rashford (thankfully) is getting a lot more protection precisely because he's working very hard for the team. That's Mourinho's style, his minimum expectation if you will. But like I said Fergie was a bit more unconditional in his support of talented youngsters. If you showed the kind of promise Martial has, he would forgive a lot of stuff and ease the pressure on you. Mourinho does no such thing unless you bleed for the team. Just a different approach.

 

[Dobbs]

Did anyone criticise his off the ball movement last season?

I'm sure he could improve it but seems to me it's become a massively exaggerated flaw due to poor performances.

 

[Womp]

Martial's 2nd season is comparable to Nani's bad second season. '11 was Nani's 4th season, not his 2nd and I didn't compare Martial now to Nani '11 so not sure where you got that. Martial was carrying us last season, so he's showed already his quality for this club. My point was Fergie showed faith in Nani for 4 years in order for him to have good seasons in 11/12 and 12/13. Do you see Mou showing faith in Martial for 4 seasons?

Also Mourinho has also modified Martial's role for me. He's playing more as winger than a forward and he's got to track back a lot more than he did under LVG. And apart from the fact he's getting no run of games whatsoever.

I fully agree with your point that Rashford (thankfully) is getting a lot more protection precisely because he's working very hard for the team. That's Mourinho's style, his minimum expectation if you will. But like I said Fergie was a bit more unconditional in his support of talented youngsters. If you showed the kind of promise Martial has, he would forgive a lot of stuff and ease the pressure on you. Mourinho does no such thing unless you bleed for the team. Just a different approach.

I was talking about Nani in 2011, as an example that not all talented youngsters have a given right to play and had Martial been playing to a similar standard to what Nani produced that season, Jose wouldn't be able to drop him. As the poster above mentioned, Valencia was reliable and in SAF's old age, maybe that's what he preferred. Not all managers are going to take a liking to every player. I agree that it's a different approach and all, is it the right one? I don't think there is a "right" approach, as you claimed, why SAF was so good was he was able to adapt to certain players. That being said, Martial has all the talent to be a world beater and for him to fufill that potential, a kick in the ass isn't the worst thing for him imo. Adversity is part and parcel of the game, the players worth their salt will overcome it though, as Rashers is doing. Martial also doesn't strike me as the type of lad who'd need an arm around his shoulder, he looks cold as feck. Fecker barely smiles, he's ice cold, maybe some tough love is the way to go for him.

I don't think Jose is trying to push him out, nor do I think he will move. This season has been very rough for him, he seems to have dropped his head because of the Euros and his girlfriend dramas, has been underwhelming since basically before the season even began, but I still think he's got it in him to be a superstar for us and I wouldn't bet against it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Whether football fans like it or not, whether they want to use the "kids these days" nonsense or not, the reality is that players need the right environment to develop, you just have to look at Coman or Henry with Juventus. Sometimes clubs, managers and players don't fit together. Football history is full of players who thrived with a type of manager and didn't with an other type.

Absolutely. I think Martial's season has a lot to do with him and his manager being a bad fit. And it's an utter shame. Yesterday he was standing on the left wing trying to play like a left sided midfielder. What a contrasts to last season where he had defenders on toasts. If he leaves it will not only be pretty depressing but I think he'll fantastically elsewhere.

 

[JPRouve]

Did anyone criticise his off the ball movement last season?

I'm sure he could improve it but seems to me it's become a massively exaggerated flaw due to poor performances.

I did exactly a year ago the April 14 2016 which was received with outrage.

No it has nothing to do with the support, his striking technique his average and he stopped improving his runs and positioning. Obviously people are satisfied by his performances since he is a lot more talented than anyone else in our roster but it doesn't mean that he is having a good season, by his standards that's an average season.
And lets be clear I'm not blaming him, I'm just judging his evolution and the quality of his individual performances.

Apr 14, 2016

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I did exactly a year ago the April 14 2016 which was received with outrage.

If that's the case then the left wing position doesn't help that development either because it involves him keeping the width a lot of the time. Especially given our difficulties in breaking teams that sit deep.

 

[Dobbs]

I did exactly a year ago the April 14 2016 which was received with outrage.

That it was met with outrage is telling. Nobody else seemingly having a problem with his movement(I didn't think there was a problem with it).

Fast forward to this season, he's playing poorly and apparently it's a major flaw in his game.

I think this movement thing is being overplayed. Of course it could be better because he's only 21 but the real problem is the lack of confidence and enjoyment in his game.

 

[Dobbs]

If that's the case then the left wing position doesn't help that development either because it involves him keeping the width a lot of the time. Especially given our difficulties in breaking teams that sit deep.

Agree with that.

 

[snk123]

I have never seen a player in my life how gets all these excuses when he plays bad . His teammates are murdered on the slightest mistake while Martial always got his excuses ready from his fans .

Of course, he's the most talented youngster we've had since Ronaldo and he had an amazing first season. He is 21 years old ffs and is short of confidence because he was unfairly dropped in the past. People back him because they see the obvious quality he has and if he is given a run of games, he will get back to his best.

 

[acnumber9]

Well, that's something that coaches develop in their players. Personally I blame LVG, Mourinho and Martial for that, it's ridiculous to even pretend that only one of them is responsible.

That's one thing I would agree Mourinho has to take some responsibility for. Though obviously we have no idea whether he has been trying to coach it into him or not.

 

[Womp]

Of course, he's the most talented youngster we've had since Ronaldo and he had an amazing first season. He is 21 years old ffs and is short of confidence because he was unfairly dropped in the past. People back him because they see the obvious quality he has and if he is given a run of games, he will get back to his best.

Pogba is more talented, also even though Martial may be more talented than Rashford, I wouldn't be surprised if Rashford became the better player due to determination.

 

[Womp]

That's one thing I would agree Mourinho has to take some responsibility for. Though obviously we have no idea whether he has been trying to coach it into him or not.

Also agree with this, if he hasn't been working on movement with Martial (assuming managers even do that, and not coaches) then that's unacceptable. For all we know he could have though, as we've seen glimpses, like when he came on against Sunderland

 

[togg]

What a disappointing season from Martial himself and Mourinho in getting the best out of brightest young talent. I'm not even sure why he keeps getting dropped. He has one bad game and gets dropped whereas others can be rubbish game after game. Then he has a promising substitute appearance and doesn't start two games in a row and has the average Lingard starting ahead of him.

I'm presuming there is more going on behind the scenes. Unfortunately we are not party to the daily training and the reports/discussions between the manager and the coaches.

 

[POF]

Did anyone criticise his off the ball movement last season?

I'm sure he could improve it but seems to me it's become a massively exaggerated flaw due to poor performances.

He played in a team coached by LVG. His lack of off the ball movement would have been seen as a positive.

 

[togg]

Pogba is more talented, also even though Martial may be more talented than Rashford, I wouldn't be surprised if Rashford became the better player due to determination.

Yeah...Rashford is a totally different character. Fergie used to treat Giggs with tough love, as the later has mentioned, and it worked for him and I reckon it's the same for Rashford. He seems like a very level headed character with a great desire to better himself.....although that is only an opinion from distance of course.

 

[Womp]

Yeah...Rashford is a totally different character. Fergie used to treat Giggs with tough love, as the later has mentioned, and it worked for him and I reckon it's the same for Rashford. He seems like a very level headed character with a great desire to better himself.....although that is only an opinion from distance of course.

I would have loved to see what kind of player Rashford could have flourished into under SAF. Exactly the type of player SAF would have loved, English, determined, fast, technical.

 

[el3mel]

Of course, he's the most talented youngster we've had since Ronaldo and he had an amazing first season. He is 21 years old ffs and is short of confidence because he was unfairly dropped in the past. People back him because they see the obvious quality he has and if he is given a run of games, he will get back to his best.

Yes it's the manager fault as usual . The manager and the whole team should hold responsibility for Mr. Martial not even breaking a sweat yesterday .

We should bring a kind-hearted manager to treat Mr.Martial well enough for him to give us any good performance.

The strange thing is othrr players in the squad were dropped by the manager and when return always perform as Mikhi and Rashford while Mr.Martial needs a special treatment I guess . He most play continuously even if he's not performing at all.

 

[snk123]

Pogba is more talented, also even though Martial may be more talented than Rashford, I wouldn't be surprised if Rashford became the better player due to determination.

Pogba is 24. Martial is 21. And it is debatable who is more talented - it's Martial for me.
The Rashford comparisons are silly - he had a decent game yesterday but his ability on the ball is nowhere near Martial's. Martial's ceiling is way higher whether you like to admit or not.

 

[limerickcitykid]

That it was met with outrage is telling. Nobody else seemingly having a problem with his movement(I didn't think there was a problem with it).

Fast forward to this season, he's playing poorly and apparently it's a major flaw in his game.

I think this movement thing is being overplayed. Of course it could be better because he's only 21 but the real problem is the lack of confidence and enjoyment in his game.

It's not that telling because Martials shit smelled like roses on here last year. He could do no wrong. If you didn't say he was nailed on to win a balon d'or you were met with outrage. Simple fact is he is a one trick pony. He only has one part to his game and that's isn't good enough to be the best.

 

[snk123]

Yes it's the manager fault as usual . The manager and the whole team should hold responsibility for Mr. Martial not even breaking a sweat yesterday .

We should bring a kind-hearted manager to treat Mr.Martial well enough for him to give us any good performance.

The strange thing is othrr players in the squad were dropped by the manager and when return always perform as Mikhi and Rashford while Mr.Martial needs a special treatment I guess . He most play continuously even if he's not performing at all.

Errr. Your sarcasm does not even make a little sense because Martial performed superbly the whole season last year with a different manager. He has also come back and performed well on numerous occasions after being dropped. He is having a bad/ok second season with personal problems and not having the trust of the manager - give it a rest already.

 

[snk123]

It's not that telling because Martials shit smelled like roses on here last year. He could do no wrong. If you didn't say he was nailed on to win a balon d'or you were met with outrage. Simple fact is he is a one trick pony. He only has one part to his game and that's isn't good enough to be the best.

And if that one trick is amazing dribbling to beat his man almost every time, i'll gladly take that.

 

[Garethw]

Absolutely. I think Martial's season has a lot to do with him and his manager being a bad fit. And it's an utter shame. Yesterday he was standing on the left wing trying to play like a left sided midfielder. What a contrasts to last season where he had defenders on toasts. If he leaves it will not only be pretty depressing but I think he'll fantastically elsewhere.

I lost count of the number of times that I saw him just standing still waiting to receive the ball. That makes the defenders job so easy.

Lingard might not be as talented, but his off the movement blows Martial out of the water.