I don't see anyone saying Mourinho should leave for his own sake. It's ridiculous the level of hero worship. Especially for a player that while very talented clearly isn't doing what he should be on the pitch.
9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 42
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 8
- Yellow cards
- 3
- Status
Martials inclusion wouldn't have made much of a difference.
We still had 10/11 of our first choice players on pitch against a side rooted to the bottom of the league, but carry on...
We still had 10/11 of our first choice players on pitch against a side rooted to the bottom of the league, but carry on...
I don't think anyone is worshiping him. The fact is that Martial over achieved last season. Last season was an anomaly for a 20 year old foreign player in a new league. Forget the lack of smiles, he looked like he enjoyed his football last season and I don't anyone complained about him not working hard, or being mentally weak, or not motivated. Fast forward 12 months, he has been decent when you compare him to his peers out there and when you consider that he is bloody 21 and went through a dispute with his child's mother, he ought to be cut some slack. It's no coincidence either that Jose who is notoriously bad when it comes to handling developing players comes into the scene.
It's so easy to jump on players back when performances are what we want while we conveniently ignore other factors that may be coming to play, AND forget that the manager has a duty to perform. If a world class player isn't performing, we turn on him, but when a world class manager doesn't perform we come up with excuses.
Couldn't agree more
Jose has got this one wrong. We had zero dribblers out there against a parked bus.
Martial is our best dribbler. All the top teams have forwards that beat defenders. We have one and don't consistently play him.
Martial is our best dribbler. All the top teams have forwards that beat defenders. We have one and don't consistently play him.
They had David Meyler, a slow midfielder playing as a right back. So I believe it could have made a huge difference if a Martial was playing on the left. If there was an area on the field Hull were for the taking, it was right there. Not picking Martial for this game was foolish, and even more so not bringing him on after seeing United struggle to create anything from the flanks.
I think it's pretty obvious that some do.
If you want to see what player worship is, go to the Wayne Rooney thread.
That's understandable though, since he is a United legend, some fans are more attached to him emotionally and overreact to people slagging him of.
With Martial I think it's because he's a dribbler, a flair player, the kind young fans idolise often.
He did take his chance and was MOTM against Middlesborough, what happened the next game? He wasn't even on the squad, not even on the bench. He get a chance against Liverpool and gets isolated because of managers tactics, next game again out of squad. He plays on Sunday and he's brilliant, but still doesn't play even we need a goal. He is doing everything he can and still is behind Rooney.
There's just no belief in him. You don't put a player that have belief in out squad game after game when you have belief in them. What have Mkhitaryan and Mata had done in past 3 games? Nothing. They have been aweful and yet they are still playing. Same goes to Pogba and Zlatan and others.
I said it before if he's supposed to reach his potential given the fact that he is 21 he needs to play game after game even if he can not perform at his best in a few of them. He should be inconsistent. That's how it works with young players. If there was belief in him he would have played like I said.
so what's the point on keeping him? It's better for him to leave and it's better for us. Jose will get the player he wants and either he wins the title or he and his fans will run out of excuses. Then when he reached his potential we will regret his departure. That's what will happen when the manager doesn't have faith in young players. Exactly what happened in Chelsea and de Bruyne. And there is nothing I can do about it. It just is the way it works in football. When a manager and a player don't click with each other.
and one more thing, nobody said that he's been phenomenal this year but there's just no way that Rooney has been better than him or Rashford is better on the left side. That's when I ask what the hell is Jose doing with him because it's no longer about developing a young player it's about our best option being out of squad.
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Wanting our best performing attacker in recent weeks to get game time is an example of supporting individuals over the club? The lengths people go to to absolve José of any criticism is quite something.
God forbid we want someone who contributed to three goals in his last three starts to play when we've scored 2 goals total in the last three games he played no part in.
In last 7 matches he had 7 goals and assists, what more should he do? Are you asking him to score like Messi did against Getafe every match?
In fact, I will say that you are the one who is supporting an individual in Mourinho, a manager who is harming our club in favor of his personal vendetta against Martial.
You're clearly talking nonsense given Martial has reasonably performed lately yet still found himself left out completely from the squad or benched. Since the Boro game Martial has been our best winger most of the time he's been called to play but that still doesn't stop Mou from dropping him for less performing players.
It hasn't been about performances anymore for a while, at least not since the turn of the year, if going by performance and merit, Martial should be starting ahead of all our wingers, not constantly dropped after good showings.
I know. It's not like anyone else bar Zlatan is doing more lately, and especially the likes of Rashford (who I love seeing get game time) Rooney and Lingard who seem to be preferred on the left haven't put in a performance remotely close to Martial's against Middleborough in which he was still dropped after.
It's baffling but I think I'll stop questioning José's stance on this because there has to be more to it than Martial's actual performances. Hopefully this gets resolved quickly because it's hampering us unnecessarily.
Is there any stopping this?
He was rested for a game that was two days later and he had also picked up a minor knock on his ankle during a shot against Boro but played through it.
True but you'd think such a performance would've earnt him some trust from José and, at some point, a proper run in the side, but no.
No. It's the melodrama of saying he should leave for the sake of his career I'm talking about here. Why would any United want him to leave? It's bloody stupid. I would like him to play too. Though I'd prefer he actually puts the required effort in when he does play. If he does that he'll have no problems.
I think people are stretching about the good showings. He was excellent against Middlesbrough and it was so noticeable because of the standard he's served up most of the season. I'd like to see him play but I can see why he isn't. He had a decent second half against Wigan but he was dreadful in the first half. The notion being floated that Mourinho just doesn't like young players is baffling given who he played ahead of Martial last night. That seems to have escaped the conspiracy theorists.
I don't think he has actually. From my reckoning it's 5 in his last 7 games. Two goals and three assists. 4 of those stats coming against Reading and Wigan. I don't think he's performed particularly well in the league this season and it's a clear problem.
I'm supporting Manchester United. Im not crying hat somebody should leave for their career either. I'm not absolving Mourinho of blame for our position. He's made mistakes and I think Rooney coming on ahead of Mata and Martial is bonkers. That doesn't change the fact that Martial isn't playing well enough. I think that applies to Mkhitaryan at the moment too.
There is an argument that certain players, particularly flair players need to be given that extra boost of confidence by playing them into form. This in itself is man management 101. Honestly, we lost a great man in Fergie. I had mentioned earlier on how he sometimes managed Wayne Rooney. Rooney is the streakiest top player that I have ever seen in my life, his form can go up and down at 4 times in a season but somehow Fergie managed to squeeze something out him him, playing him into form. At times it was uneccesary because his dip in form was a a result of Wayne Rooney's inability to keep in shape but nonetheless Fergie managed him differently and it worked by and large.
Nani, is another player that could take you from elation to frustration a few times in one match, he had that quality but was largely inconsistent in his early days but somehow, Fergie managed him differently and often played him into form AS he got older. Was that preferential treatment? No, because a few ex-players have come to say how Nani was on the receiving end of the hair dryer than most players BUT Fergie was also quick to put his arms around him. This is proper man management.
Januzaj is another example. Apparently, his biggest problem isn't technical ability but the ability to understand and apply the tactical aspect of the game. I'm not a fan of Moyes at all but I have to give this one to him because it is said that all he told Januzaj was along the lines of "you are young, go out there and express yourself" and he also told him that he will continue to be in the team even if he had a dip in form at times.
Memphis is another player that would have benefited from this kind of man management. A manager that will go the extra mile to show confidence in a player. Trust and respect is reciprocal. Sometimes it just needs the manager to make the first approach to get the player on his side rather than coming heavy handed. Martial had a few good games and even though they were not 9/10s the worst thing Jose could have done was to come out to criticise him, drop him and replace him with a relatively lesser player in Rashford, who will have no future as a winger imho.
Even if you want to drop a player, there are ways to do it and still have the player on your side. Fergie managed to always have 4 strikers in the squad, and kept them all happy. Learn Jose before history repeats itself!
I don't know if he wants to players to be scared of him. Fear and respect is not the same thing. No wonder our best performances came when he wasn't in the dugout.
Nani, is another player that could take you from elation to frustration a few times in one match, he had that quality but was largely inconsistent in his early days but somehow, Fergie managed him differently and often played him into form AS he got older. Was that preferential treatment? No, because a few ex-players have come to say how Nani was on the receiving end of the hair dryer than most players BUT Fergie was also quick to put his arms around him. This is proper man management.
Januzaj is another example. Apparently, his biggest problem isn't technical ability but the ability to understand and apply the tactical aspect of the game. I'm not a fan of Moyes at all but I have to give this one to him because it is said that all he told Januzaj was along the lines of "you are young, go out there and express yourself" and he also told him that he will continue to be in the team even if he had a dip in form at times.
Memphis is another player that would have benefited from this kind of man management. A manager that will go the extra mile to show confidence in a player. Trust and respect is reciprocal. Sometimes it just needs the manager to make the first approach to get the player on his side rather than coming heavy handed. Martial had a few good games and even though they were not 9/10s the worst thing Jose could have done was to come out to criticise him, drop him and replace him with a relatively lesser player in Rashford, who will have no future as a winger imho.
Even if you want to drop a player, there are ways to do it and still have the player on your side. Fergie managed to always have 4 strikers in the squad, and kept them all happy. Learn Jose before history repeats itself!
I don't know if he wants to players to be scared of him. Fear and respect is not the same thing. No wonder our best performances came when he wasn't in the dugout.
Puts a whole new spin on it. It's reasonable to ignore stats accumulated against lower league opposition, if you ask me. Which would make it just the one goal/assist in his last 5 outings against PL opposition. Hardly a fecking overwhelming case for him to play, is it?
FWIW I would also have played him ahead of Rooney and have to assume that he's being a bit sulky behind the scenes. Otherwise he surely would have come off the bench last night. Silly boy.
He meant 7 starts.
Since he came into form, he's only played one league game against Liverpool and didn't play the other three. Don't know what more he can do... he's performed in the cup games he's been demoted to. Which of our attacking players (behind Ibra) do you think have played best in 2017?
He can only score/assist against teams he plays against. I think most will agree Middlesbrough was the start of him coming into form. In the four league games since he only played against Liverpool when he had three/four players on him. He's been relegated to cup games where he has performed. Yes, they're against lower league opposition but you can only perform against the teams you play against, and in those games he provided the wide threat crossing balls in from the left which is something we've missed in the league games he hasn't played in in 2017.
I don't get this "coming into form" notion. As though a good game against Boro means he will still be good now. That match was over two months ago. Form can vary from week to week and will be judged in training, as well as in matches. I thought he started brightly (without producing anything of note) against Liverpool but offered nothing after the first 15 minutes. Against a rookie full-back and a defence that was repeatedly ripped apart by fecking Swansea (and Wolves) shortly afterwards.
And yes, he was one of many players to under-perform in that game and not all of them have been stuck on the bench since. I put that down to his attitude between the matches. Which clearly isn't ideal. It just seems absurd to me to suggest a manager would willingly take a player out of the team who is tearing it up in training. You could maybe accept it if the player was looking different class on match-days too but that hasn't happened either, if we're honest. Not against PL opposition anyway.
I mean the games he's played in since on the whole have played well. Not like he just played well against Middlesbrough and did feck all since. Yes, he offered nothing against Liverpool but he had three players on him. In the Swansea and Wolves games, Liverpool weren't triple marking anyone.
And over two months ago? It was just 33 days ago (little over a month). Fair enough on second paragraph though disagree with penultimate sentence. He's done what he can in the games he's played this year - Liverpool aside. Yes, not against PL opposition but he's not been given the chance in 2017.
Was he rested, or are you just making it up ?
Those stats look pretty but add nothing to the discussion. Either you think we should read a lot into stats fluffed up by games against Championship opposition or you don't. Look who's ahead of him in the productivity table!
Then we're into a debate about whether or not he played well against Liverpool or not. I don't think he did. Even being up against 2 or 3 defenders he did very well. For 15 minutes. It was the way he disappeared from that point onwards which is a black mark against him.
I was wrong about Boro being 2 months ago. I don't think that invalidates my point.
Then we're into a debate about whether or not he played well against Liverpool or not. I don't think he did. Even being up against 2 or 3 defenders he did very well. For 15 minutes. It was the way he disappeared from that point onwards which is a black mark against him.
I was wrong about Boro being 2 months ago. I don't think that invalidates my point.
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On the whole he's been our best player in 2017. Agree or disagree? If disagree, who has been better in the games they've played this year?
All I know is he is playing no worse than Rashford and Mkhitaryan yet apparently has to perform miracles to get a game. I am going to give Mourinho the benefit of the doubt and assume Martial has an attitude problem and hopefully he sorts it out as we need him.
Everyone has been generally crap in the league in 2017. Martial included.
Against Championship opposition we've had a few good performers. He's one of them. Schweinsteiger's another.
31st of december isn't over two months ago, unless you're rocking a completely different calendar. Not sure why you're harping on about the Liverpool match, he only started struggling when Liverpool crowded him with 3 players down that side, and Pogba offered the grand sum of feck all in terms in terms of helping out. In terms of their defence and comparing with other teams results, Liverpool just managed a 1-1 draw against Chelsea, i'm sure you remember how we played against Chelsea. Comparisons and all that.
It's a bit too easy to shift focus over to training, considering none on here (or very few, and they keep their mouth shut about it) knows about the training sessions. In terms of "tearing it up" in training, isn't general training sessions about keeping fitness, it's not like they are 12 years old playing 11 vs 11 to decide the starting lineup.
Heh. The irony of being pedantic over form from 1 vs 2 months ago, then bringing up a result from four months back to compare with one from earlier this week.
Re training sessions, no, of course they're not just about keeping fitness.
Please, do enlighten us about our training sessions
I'm sure Jose said it. The game was two days later and he was rested but had also taken a knock and played on.
Couldn't find anything about it, do you have a link ?
I'm imagining this as the footballing version of Whiplash, with Mourinho making Phil Jones cry (imagine the faces), roaring obscenities into Luke Shaw's ear and hurling a chair at Martial's head...
Nope. Found this though, fwiw.
Martial
Hit the post with a 25-yard rocket and was United's best player in the first half. Scored the equaliser despite hobbling for the last 10 minutes because of an injury. 8
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...r-united-ratings-middlesbrough-pogba-12390268
Martial is a bit quiet. Not perhaps Mourinho's type.
Although none of us know about training, I think it is very doubtful that he is training badly.
I think it is much more like Mourinho to be deliberately treating him badly to see how he will react, hoping for more fire from him.
That's all well and good, if we are winning while he messes about in amateur psychology, but we need him on the fecking pitch.
Although none of us know about training, I think it is very doubtful that he is training badly.
I think it is much more like Mourinho to be deliberately treating him badly to see how he will react, hoping for more fire from him.
That's all well and good, if we are winning while he messes about in amateur psychology, but we need him on the fecking pitch.
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