[Bobcat]

This thread

FFS, Spurs are not exactly a walkover now are they? Herrera and Matic did fine considering the circumstances, their had more defensive than offensive duties and it's not like Spurs walked into our box now was it?

Hes not as talented as Pogba, everyone knows that, but they are completely different players as well. In an alternate dimension were Pogba is not injured and was playing yesterday, it might have been 0-1 and everyone would be calling for his head instead. Get a grip

 

[Bulldogg]

Why's he getting blasted? Much better than Matic today whose thread is silent. And I agree that he isn't playing as well as he should. But he's playing a different role. He's not a Pogba with imperious ability on the ball

Much better than Matic ? I disagree with that statement dunno if we we're watching the same game. Agree with the "why's he getting blasted" comment but then you kind of do the same thing by trying to throw Matic under the bus....weird.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I don't really know what is wrong with his positioning and pressing, he suddenly seems to be miles behind the press this season and ends up pressing and containing space with his arms out shimmy-hesitating and people just pass it around him. I still think it is the introduction of Matic in that anchor position that has killed his effectiveness. I'd love to see his energy further up the field, maybe even at 10 but we already have a huge log jam going on for positions in the attack.

What a weird season he's having, he's all over the shop. Hope he can turn it around tho.

 

[kouroux]

I don't really know what is wrong with his positioning and pressing, he suddenly seems to be miles behind the press this season and ends up pressing and containing space with his arms out shimmy-hesitating and people just pass it around him. I still think it is the introduction of Matic in that anchor position that has killed his effectiveness. I'd love to see his energy further up the field, maybe even at 10 but we already have a huge log jam going on for positions in the attack.

What a weird season he's having, he's all over the shop. Hope he can turn it around tho.

I'd love to understand how.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I'd love to understand how.

I'm not sure either but it is the only tangible piece of evidence that I can come up with, he (Matic) plays more a central base position to what we were playing last season with two midfielders playing the dual role in the 4-2-3-1. Essentially with Matic occupying the anchor position his pressing is less effective.. "late" is maybe a way to describe it and he seems to get bogged down pressing and winning the ball with his back to goal, in odd and narrow defensive positions, with no clear passes on and not effectively getting back into the attacking transition.

Dunno, maybe I have it arse about. It is a weird one for sure, he was excellent last season and he really thrived in the extra space that the two midfielders in the 4-2-3-1 offered. Not having Pogba doesn't help obviously.

 

[shield]

I thought it was a pretty mediocre performance. Not bad but nothing excellent either. I don't know if it is the way Matic plays that is affecting his game.

His ball movement has begun to really annoy me. Every time he is pressed, he just cannot do anything better than pass it back. Like, Matic and Pogba can do this neat silky things, which are minor but important for a midfielder like short quick forward passes, slight ball movements to get out of slightly sticky situations, moving into pockets of space etc. I see Matic , Pogba do this regularly in our midfield. Even Fellaini has started doing this, but is still limited, but he has the advantage of height and strength.

I used to think Herrera is also good at these attributes, but right now the only thing he is doing is closing down players and keeping things tight. I was really annoyed seeing a Tottenham midfield in which the only notable name was Erickson dominate us for most of the match. I used to think that he is a player worthy of being a starter but right now it looks like he is just there to hold on thill Pogba arrives. So, as sub or replacement for a starter, he has done OK, but has not made a case for being a starter himself.

 

[buckooo1978]

he's certainly getting the games but the performances have been mixed

actually felt he did ok yesterday and was combative against a good Spurs side

reckon he might play in the Matic role on Tuesday if we decide to give Nemanja a rest

 

[kouroux]

I'm not sure either but it is the only tangible piece of evidence that I can come up with, he (Matic) plays more a central base position to what we were playing last season with two midfielders playing the dual role in the 4-2-3-1. Essentially with Matic occupying the anchor position his pressing is less effective.. "late" is maybe a way to describe it and he seems to get bogged down pressing and winning the ball with his back to goal, in odd and narrow defensive positions, with no clear passes on and not effectively getting back into the attacking transition.

Dunno, maybe I have it arse about. It is a weird one for sure, he was excellent last season and he really thrived in the extra space that the two midfielders in the 4-2-3-1 offered. Not having Pogba doesn't help obviously.

Don't take it the wrong way but this is exactly what I think tbh. He wasn't excellent the whole of last season tbh, he hasn't had a single season of consistent quality performances. Good patches yes. It's who he is, not a top draw midfielder but a good player for us on his day. He's in terrible form at the moment.

 

[rollingstoned1]

he does seem to keep getting caught further up the pitch trying to win the ball but i wonder where the Herrera who ran rings around us for Bilbao and even looked good in patches during LVGs first season has gone. Right now he plays like a holding midfielder with very little on the ball ability.

 

[Distracted Steward]

Why's he settling into being some sort of yeoman? I remember him being more technical, versatile and moving off the ball way better.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Don't take it the wrong way but this is exactly what I think tbh. He wasn't excellent the whole of last season tbh, he hasn't had a single season of consistent quality performances. Good patches yes. It's who he is, not a top draw midfielder but a good player for us on his day. He's in terrible form at the moment.

Have to disagree with this, he was fantastic last season.

 

[POF]

I really don't know what people expected. It was 3-5-2 vs 3-5-2 with 10 players in an extremely congested midfield. Neither team showed any real quality in midfield throughout the game.

If Eriksen ran rings around him I could understand the criticism but he had minimal impact until Dembele came on and he moved to face up against Matic instead of Herrera.

I actually don't think Herrera suits Jose's style at all. Similar to Mata, I think he likes his character more than his skillset. Herrera is a link player who likes to touch the ball a lot, always with one or two touches. He would work better in a possession based team rather than United's more direct style.

It is credit to him and his intelligence how he has adapted his game, playing unfamiliar roles to be an extremely important player.

 

[Lawman]

Shit enough to win two trophies.

As much as I celebrated them I would rather get back to the top of the league. The two cups we won last year were the two most teams don’t prioritise to be honest. I would not be happy winning just them year in year out. I would rather collect league titles.

 

[Lawman]

I really don't know what people expected. It was 3-5-2 vs 3-5-2 with 10 players in an extremely congested midfield. Neither team showed any real quality in midfield throughout the game.

If Eriksen ran rings around him I could understand the criticism but he had minimal impact until Dembele came on and he moved to face up against Matic instead of Herrera.

I actually don't think Herrera suits Jose's style at all. Similar to Mata, I think he likes his character more than his skillset. Herrera is a link player who likes to touch the ball a lot, always with one or two touches. He would work better in a possession based team rather than United's more direct style.

It is credit to him and his intelligence how he has adapted his game, playing unfamiliar roles to be an extremely important player.

Think you are making a lot of assumptions here POF. Herrera is very average on the ball and plays a short passing game due to his long range passing being so limited. Why can’t he fit into Jose style? He would if he was good enough as it’s not that difficult for a midfielder. Pogba and Matic have.
He is certainly not a link player, I see him get the ball and he has time to turn (or should already be opened up) yet he passes it straight back and sprints away like TC23 did.
Matic and Pogba are the level of player we need in the starting 11. Herrera would be a great squadie but not much more in my opinion. He’s the 2017 version of Nikki Butt in terms of level and place in the squad.

 

[Norris]

Maybe it's just me, But I think the dream team that the caf had of Matic-Herrera-Pogba is going to be dead. I think Mourinho recognizes that as well, which is why he has never tried to play the 3 together. Furthermore, I think Herrera and Matic aren't really working well together. It sometimes feels like Herrera tries to take over the role of DM and in other ocassions, where he plays the role of B2B, he keeps following the ball without really knowing where Matic is positioned. There seems to be very little co-ordination or understanding between the two.

 

[POF]

Think you are making a lot of assumptions here POF. Herrera is very average on the ball and plays a short passing game due to his long range passing being so limited. Why can’t he fit into Jose style? He would if he was good enough as it’s not that difficult for a midfielder. Pogba and Matic have.
He is certainly not a link player, I see him get the ball and he has time to turn (or should already be opened up) yet he passes it straight back and sprints away like TC23 did.
Matic and Pogba are the level of player we need in the starting 11. Herrera would be a great squadie but not much more in my opinion. He’s the 2017 version of Nikki Butt in terms of level and place in the squad.

There are two different conversations here. Whether he is good enough to play in United's team and whether it is the style that suits him best.

Pogba and Matic are big strong athletic and technical players. They are capable of carrying the ball forward through midfield and are physically imposing. Herrera can't do that as well.

By link man, I mean he likes to give and receive the ball a lot at close quarters. His interplay down the right with Valencia and Mata or whoever plays wide right is always excellent but in general United don't play that way.

I agree his long range passing is a weakness which is even more of a reason why playing in this United team doesn't really suit him. I think the comparison to Cleverley isn't a bad one actually. Herrera is far better but they do play a quite similar style on the ball.

In a more technical side where everyone has more touches and he can utilise his intelligence, movement and short passing game, I think he would be far more effective.

I really like him being at United and I hope he stays for the rest of his career. But if I was him, I'd want to move to a more technical team.

 

[7even]

I thought it was a pretty mediocre performance. Not bad but nothing excellent either. I don't know if it is the way Matic plays that is affecting his game.

His ball movement has begun to really annoy me. Every time he is pressed, he just cannot do anything better than pass it back. Like, Matic and Pogba can do this neat silky things, which are minor but important for a midfielder like short quick forward passes, slight ball movements to get out of slightly sticky situations, moving into pockets of space etc. I see Matic , Pogba do this regularly in our midfield. Even Fellaini has started doing this, but is still limited, but he has the advantage of height and strength.

I used to think Herrera is also good at these attributes, but right now the only thing he is doing is closing down players and keeping things tight. I was really annoyed seeing a Tottenham midfield in which the only notable name was Erickson dominate us for most of the match. I used to think that he is a player worthy of being a starter but right now it looks like he is just there to hold on thill Pogba arrives. So, as sub or replacement for a starter, he has done OK, but has not made a case for being a starter himself.

I completely agree with this.

he does seem to keep getting caught further up the pitch trying to win the ball but i wonder where the Herrera who ran rings around us for Bilbao and even looked good in patches during LVGs first season has gone. Right now he plays like a holding midfielder with very little on the ball ability.

It looks like he has lost his identity as a player. Not disciplined enough defensive and in possession he’s scared of doing mistakes. I don’t know but Mourinho’s style with a deep defensive line doesn’t seem to suite his natural instinct. If this make sense?

Maybe it's just me, But I think the dream team that the caf had of Matic-Herrera-Pogba is going to be dead. I think Mourinho recognizes that as well, which is why he has never tried to play the 3 together. Furthermore, I think Herrera and Matic aren't really working well together. It sometimes feels like Herrera tries to take over the role of DM and in other ocassions, where he plays the role of B2B, he keeps following the ball without really knowing where Matic is positioned. There seems to be very little co-ordination or understanding between the two.

This.

It isn’t easy to criticize such a loyal and nice guy who always gives his best. Let’s hope Mourinho find a better way to use his skill sets because right now he’s our weakest link in midfield.

 

[AndyJ1985]

From what I've seen this season I'd actually play Fellaini instead of Herrera in a midfield three with Matic and Pogba.

 

[prtk0811]

He's playing well now, no need for overanalysis.

 

[Scarecrow]

From what I've seen this season I'd actually play Fellaini instead of Herrera in a midfield three with Matic and Pogba.

Isn't that obvious?

 

[Lawman]

There are two different conversations here. Whether he is good enough to play in United's team and whether it is the style that suits him best.

Pogba and Matic are big strong athletic and technical players. They are capable of carrying the ball forward through midfield and are physically imposing. Herrera can't do that as well.

By link man, I mean he likes to give and receive the ball a lot at close quarters. His interplay down the right with Valencia and Mata or whoever plays wide right is always excellent but in general United don't play that way.

I agree his long range passing is a weakness which is even more of a reason why playing in this United team doesn't really suit him. I think the comparison to Cleverley isn't a bad one actually. Herrera is far better but they do play a quite similar style on the ball.

In a more technical side where everyone has more touches and he can utilise his intelligence, movement and short passing game, I think he would be far more effective.

I really like him being at United and I hope he stays for the rest of his career. But if I was him, I'd want to move to a more technical team.

I agree with some of the things you say my friend but I’m not sure Herrera is an intelligent player. I see a guy who has mastered a touch and turn trick (he’s brilliant at it) who is a wee harrier but lacks physicality to really impose himself. His passing and decision making is lacking. I find if he’s let loose he is at his best hunting the ball but off the ball his position especially defensively is a real let down. There was an opinion he was a holding midfielder or a 6 but he was very average at trying to build the play and look at the difference Matic makes in comparison playing there it’s night and day. Now I’m not saying he’s not worth a squad place but image the difference having Herrera or Vidal in your team! That’s where we need to get at as Pogba and Matic are in that class of player but sadly Herrera is a mile off.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

As much as I celebrated them I would rather get back to the top of the league. The two cups we won last year were the two most teams don’t prioritise to be honest. I would not be happy winning just them year in year out. I would rather collect league titles.

Of course. But thats what we won last year and its a great base to build upon. Regardless, he was one of our best players last year and contributed well in terms of productivity. You seem to try to downplay a lot just to have a swipe at Herrera.

 

[Dinghy]

He did the right thing there. He's just run back so doesn't know whats around him. If he turns and finds there's a man there then hes in trouble as he can no longer turn back, you cant afford to be losing the ball that deep in midfield.

No. It's more risky to lose the ball in that position. He is deep in midfield. You don't lose the ball there. He's a link player and prefers to play one and two touch. He is brilliant at getting the ball out of tight spaces to someone in more space. Often, that is backwards.

When he gets the ball in positions higher up the pitch where losing the ball is less risky he will play forward and look for an offensive pass.

Are you kidding me? It's not risky at all when there's no one around him there. He needs to have some fecking awareness of what's going on around him. Instead he choses the "safe" option. Spurs got four players in our half and this could have been a good opportunity for us to actually create something against a very well organised side.

 

[Lawman]

Of course. But thats what we won last year and its a great base to build upon. Regardless, he was one of our best players last year and contributed well in terms of productivity. You seem to try to downplay a lot just to have a swipe at Herrera.

I think when people are praising Herrera they bring up to much subjective shite. Like he’s so intelligent and is Jose’s commander in the pitch instead of really commenting on his performances or strengths and limitations they make up stuff to suit their narrative.

 

[Akshay]

Maybe it's just me, But I think the dream team that the caf had of Matic-Herrera-Pogba is going to be dead. I think Mourinho recognizes that as well, which is why he has never tried to play the 3 together. Furthermore, I think Herrera and Matic aren't really working well together. It sometimes feels like Herrera tries to take over the role of DM and in other ocassions, where he plays the role of B2B, he keeps following the ball without really knowing where Matic is positioned. There seems to be very little co-ordination or understanding between the two.

Yeah I agree. I was one of those salivating over a Matic-Herrera-Pogba midfield in the summer but Fellaini has proven a much better fit so far. I thought Herrera could be like Fletcher was to Carrick and Scholes but the understanding is lacking. Still holding out hope however.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Maybe it's just me, But I think the dream team that the caf had of Matic-Herrera-Pogba is going to be dead. I think Mourinho recognizes that as well, which is why he has never tried to play the 3 together. Furthermore, I think Herrera and Matic aren't really working well together. It sometimes feels like Herrera tries to take over the role of DM and in other ocassions, where he plays the role of B2B, he keeps following the ball without really knowing where Matic is positioned. There seems to be very little co-ordination or understanding between the two.

Indeed.

A Pogba-Matic-Fellaini trio is better balanced and has more teeth than the Pogba-Matic-Herrera combination. Pogba will be mostly offensive, Matic mostly defensive and Fellaini will help with both. Fellaini will also help with set pieces, get to the end of crosses, put some physicality, etc. (all the things that we see of him most of the time). Fellaini is also more "flexible": Mourinho can use him depending on the way the games develop. If we lead and need to protect it, he will drop back. If we need a goal late in the game, he can become basically a second striker. Herrera can't do that.

 

[Green_Red]

He is not Pogba's backup, he is Matic's backup but has had to play as well. Not sure what Fellaini is as he definitely isn't Matic's backup. He is more a stir it up player if we are having problems up front.

Fellaini is plan b, backup for plan a, which is play football. Plan b is stop football being played.

Jokes aside, I would have thought Pereira was perfect as a backup for Pogba. Jose might be regretting sending him to Valencia? He'd add that dynamism to the midfield we're missing at the minute. But, we're not doing too badly, second in the league and still with shed loads of football to play.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Fellaini is plan b, backup for plan a, which is play football. Plan b is stop football being played.

Jokes aside, I would have thought Pereira was perfect as a backup for Pogba. Jose might be regretting sending him to Valencia? He'd add that dynamism to the midfield we're missing at the minute. But, we're not doing too badly, second in the league and still with shed loads of football to play.

Think it was more of Pereira sending himself to Valencia and he is doing well. Think he actually suits Spanish football, but yes he would have been able to strut his stuff while Pogba is out and we do miss him.

 

[KYcinco]

He runs around like a headless chicken,dives in and misses the ball,player skips by him,rinse,repeat.

he leaves so much space for the opps midfield, the positional side to his game is actually poor,not surprised Mour doesn't rate him.

he is overrated its unreal.

 

[VeevaVee]

Why's he settling into being some sort of yeoman? I remember him being more technical, versatile and moving off the ball way better.

I've never looked at him as particularly adept at the technical side, always thinking it was overrated somewhat. Off the ball movement was always pretty good as he would zip around, but what he does after that I've never been that impressed with.

 

[montpelier]

he's OK - never got more excited than that really

maybe he was better when we didn't have Pogba & Matic

 

[Robertd0803]

I don't really know what is wrong with his positioning and pressing, he suddenly seems to be miles behind the press this season and ends up pressing and containing space with his arms out shimmy-hesitating and people just pass it around him. I still think it is the introduction of Matic in that anchor position that has killed his effectiveness.

What a weird season he's having, he's all over the shop. Hope he can turn it around tho.

I don't think you are far off with this assesement.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I didn't think he was very good yesterday to be honest, and I don't think he's been having a good season.

He was very good last year though and I do like him as a player so hopefully he's just in a bit of bad form and it'll eventually pass.

 

[POF]

I agree with some of the things you say my friend but I’m not sure Herrera is an intelligent player. I see a guy who has mastered a touch and turn trick (he’s brilliant at it) who is a wee harrier but lacks physicality to really impose himself. His passing and decision making is lacking. I find if he’s let loose he is at his best hunting the ball but off the ball his position especially defensively is a real let down. There was an opinion he was a holding midfielder or a 6 but he was very average at trying to build the play and look at the difference Matic makes in comparison playing there it’s night and day. Now I’m not saying he’s not worth a squad place but image the difference having Herrera or Vidal in your team! That’s where we need to get at as Pogba and Matic are in that class of player but sadly Herrera is a mile off.

He is an incredibly intelligent player. I am surprised that is even in doubt. Anytime you hear him speak you can tell his understanding of the game is far above most of his peers.

Last season Jose's plan was Fellaini and Pogba in midfield. It was a disastrous combination. Herrera got thrown in there out of necessity in a position that didn't suit him at all and won player of the year. If anyone said Herrera would be a holding midfielder the summer before last they would have been ridiculed.

His performance against Chelsea where he man-marked Hazard from a pseudo right back position and scored and assisted the 2 goals shows his levels of tactical intelligence.

Herrera and Vidal are very different players. Vidal will be better in certain set ups and Herrera in others Herrera is a much more technical player. Vidal is more dynamic. I think it is very difficult for Herrera to be effective in this United side.

I am not for a minute comparing his quality to Xavi but if you put Xavi in this United side, he picked the ball up, rolled it to Bailly, moved for the return and watched Bailly play it in the channel for the striker to chase, then Xavi would be worse than Pogba, Matic, Fellaini and Vidal too.

You can see Herrera has the Spanish way of playing ingrained in him. Multiple touches and possession of the ball. It doesn't mesh effectively with the more direct style under Jose. You can't play a possession centric game on your own.

 

[Sunny Jim]

I agree with some of the things you say my friend but I’m not sure Herrera is an intelligent player. I see a guy who has mastered a touch and turn trick (he’s brilliant at it) who is a wee harrier but lacks physicality to really impose himself. His passing and decision making is lacking. I find if he’s let loose he is at his best hunting the ball but off the ball his position especially defensively is a real let down. There was an opinion he was a holding midfielder or a 6 but he was very average at trying to build the play and look at the difference Matic makes in comparison playing there it’s night and day. Now I’m not saying he’s not worth a squad place but image the difference having Herrera or Vidal in your team! That’s where we need to get at as Pogba and Matic are in that class of player but sadly Herrera is a mile off.

I agree 100% with you. Herrera is a type of a player who performs best while having better players around him. When the onus of is on him he fails. He is good at supporting people around him (as you said a terrier who chases balls, wins it and passes it someone who knows what to do with it). I like him but it's clear as a day that he is not good enough to be starter. Fantastic squad option to have though.

 

[mancan92]

Much better than Matic ? I disagree with that statement dunno if we we're watching the same game. Agree with the "why's he getting blasted" comment but then you kind of do the same thing by trying to throw Matic under the bus....weird.

Matic was poor which is why personally i dont know why Herrera is being attacked. Matic wasn't a one man midfield he lost the ball multiple times in dangerous positions and his passing wasn't great. Herrera was buzzing everywhere still. Made more interceptions, tackles and passes than Matic.

 

[Lawman]

I agree 100% with you. Herrera is a type of a player who performs best while having better players around him. When the onus of is on him he fails. He is good at supporting people around him (as you said a terrier who chases balls, wins it and passes it someone who knows what to do with it). I like him but it's clear as a day that he is not good enough to be starter. Fantastic squad option to have though.

Spot on Sunny Jim

 

[Yagami]

From what I've seen this season I'd actually play Fellaini instead of Herrera in a midfield three with Matic and Pogba.

With Matic sitting I'd agree as Fellaini's better further forward. Personally, I'd prefer Herrera to be the one to sit deep and let Matic and Pogba venture further forwards. I hope we see that at some point.

 

[The No.10!]

I agree 100% with you. Herrera is a type of a player who performs best while having better players around him. When the onus of is on him he fails. He is good at supporting people around him (as you said a terrier who chases balls, wins it and passes it someone who knows what to do with it). I like him but it's clear as a day that he is not good enough to be starter. Fantastic squad option to have though.

That's pretty much it.

 

[Lawman]

He is an incredibly intelligent player. I am surprised that is even in doubt. Anytime you hear him speak you can tell his understanding of the game is far above most of his peers.

Last season Jose's plan was Fellaini and Pogba in midfield. It was a disastrous combination. Herrera got thrown in there out of necessity in a position that didn't suit him at all and won player of the year. If anyone said Herrera would be a holding midfielder the summer before last they would have been ridiculed.

His performance against Chelsea where he man-marked Hazard from a pseudo right back position and scored and assisted the 2 goals shows his levels of tactical intelligence.

Herrera and Vidal are very different players. Vidal will be better in certain set ups and Herrera in others Herrera is a much more technical player. Vidal is more dynamic. I think it is very difficult for Herrera to be effective in this United side.

I am not for a minute comparing his quality to Xavi but if you put Xavi in this United side, he picked the ball up, rolled it to Bailly, moved for the return and watched Bailly play it in the channel for the striker to chase, then Xavi would be worse than Pogba, Matic, Fellaini and Vidal too.

You can see Herrera has the Spanish way of playing ingrained in him. Multiple touches and possession of the ball. It doesn't mesh effectively with the more direct style under Jose. You can't play a possession centric game on your own.

I’m giving up, Herrera much more technical that Vidal? Come on. Xavi would shine in this team in his prime something Herrera fails to do. A doughnut could man to mark (Herrera did play well) so cannot judge that as a technical or intelligent player.
Herrera cannot pass the ball to any great degree he’s the Spanish version of Tom Cleverley nowhere near the calibre of Vidal.
You use to much conjecture trying to praise Herrera and from what it’s worth in my opinion Pogba played better than Herrera last season but expectation levels meant Herrera was deemed to have played better. I’m a season ticket holder and this is what my view is. Herrera is a squad level player at best.