[Smores]

He seems to play better when he’s given more responsibility. When he’s played along side Matic it’s like he doesn’t seem to quite know what to do or where to be, whether to push on or hang back. Last night he was the main man in midfield and was able to control and dictate play, something he can’t do when Matic is playing.

He's currently only capable of playing that Matic role in my opinion. He may adjust and find his feet in other midfield roles but judging from his time here I'm not confident.

It's not a bad thing having two quality players for that role. We desperately need a backup to Pogba though, Periera should have been given that chance if he doesnt return we need a signing.

 

[Kapardin]

You moved the conversation to Carrick, not I nor anyone else. You wanted to discuss it being Carricks immobility for the reason as soon as you were challenged to explain the comparison to an identical situation but with Matic in Herreras place this season. At this point it just seems like you’re throwing as much shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Kroos and Modric aren’t box to box players you lemon. If you’re going to make a comparison, at least get it right.

Did I say Kroos or Modric were B2B, Herrera fanboy? If I did, highlight it please. I pointed them out to show that while they do not need bloated stats to justify their presence in a team, the same cannot be said for Herrera.

Again your comparison makes zero sense. Matic hasn’t partnered Carrick this season so it’s redundant and Herrera didn’t in a 2 either last season. We are still playing with two in midfield and one of those two is Pogba. There’s your direct comparison, stop trying to muddy the waters because you can’t back up your point.

Talk about not getting the point. Matic is a replacement for Carrick, so why should he partner Carrick?

1) Carrick was immobile and inefficient last season.
2) Pogba is not a DM and so cannot be expected to do defensive duties.
3) So, on account of 1) and 2), we needed Herrera last season for defensive duties.
4) We have Matic who is an upgrade on Carrick.
5) So now, there is no need for Herrera.

That's really all there is to it.

I repeat, despite us finishing 6th we still had the likes of Ibra, Pogba and DDG in the side. If it was no great achievement to get POTY then you’re saying those aforementioned players were shit last year, basically.

DDG actually was not great last season bar a few saves. Pogba's contribution, as I mentioned before, was obscured due to others missing his chances and his own bad finishing. ibra got the goals and would have been a certain contender for POTY. Apart from Ibra, only Herrera performed consistently enough to warrant starting every game --- which is not saying much in a team that finished 6th. Hence, in a choice between Ibra/Pogba/DDG and Herrera, fans voted for Herrera.

Not once have I claimed he shouldn't have contended for POTY. I am merely saying just because he was POTY in a below average season, it doesn't make him world class. Just as Ibra or Pogba not being POTY in a below average season does not make them average.

Why twist this to make it seem as though I am claiming Ibra, Pogba or DDG were not world class? The simple thing is, we scored less goals than Bournemouth and that drew fans' attention to Herrera being a consistent performer (best of the average lot).

Oh the hypocrisy. You hold up the opinions of others who share your view as an example, yet want to decredit the opinions of the fans who voted for him last season? Make your mind up, either the fans opinion matters or it doesn’t.

You are again deliberately twisting what I said. I am not discrediting nor crediting anyone. I am just replying to your accusation that I am not the only one who thinks he is average and that a vast majority of our fans overrated him. Obviously, he was vital last season as we needed him and thus those same fans who like him, voted for him.

I am not even discrediting your opinion. You are free to think he is world class, but do not try to keep criticising those who think he isn't. Your argument is by no means indisputable.

No, and a team with Pogba and our front 4 shouldn’t need to have 2 of three central players as creative players anyway. Again, I’ve given you a perfectly fine example of an excellent ball winner who was integral in his side winning the league and you want to dismiss it.

I am sorry, we are a top club and unless we have a system like Conte, we don't need two ball-winners, one of whom (Herrera) is more about side-passing and limited passing than actually contributing. Fellaini has exceeded him so far and fits more in the line of what we want, let us see if that keeps up.

Hasn’t stopped other players being criticised against other weak opposition, has it? The point was a perfectly simple one, there’s no surprise he performed much, much better when he wasn’t being played out of position.

If you perform poorly against weak opposition, you will be criticised. If you perform shite against the likes of Huddersfield and play well against an even weaker side (Swansea), that is no cause for praise.

And if you say he "played in his best position" against Swansea, that simply means he is competing with Matic, who is superior to him. So, a back-up to Matic, belongs on the bench. Hope you agree with that.

 

[ivaldo]

Did I say Kroos or Modric were B2B? If I did, highlight it please. I pointed them out to show that while they do not need bloated stats to justify their presence in a team, the same cannot be said for Herrera.



Talk about not getting the point. Matic is a replacement for Carrick, so why should he partner Carrick?

1) Carrick was immobile and inefficient last season.
2) Pogba is not a DM and so cannot be expected to do defensive duties.
3) So, on account of 1) and 2), we needed Herrera last season for defensive duties.
4) We have Matic who is an upgrade on Carrick.
5) So now, there is no need for Herrera.

That's really all there is to it.



DDG actually was not great last season bar a few saves. Pogba's contribution, as I mentioned before, was obscured due to others missing his chances and his own bad finishing. ibra got the goals and would have been a certain contender for POTY. Apart from Ibra, only Herrera performed consistently enough to warrant starting every game --- which is not saying much in a team that finished 6th. Hence, in a choice between Ibra/Pogba/DDG and Herrera, fans voted for Herrera.

Not once have I claimed he shouldn't have contended for POTY. I am merely saying just because he was POTY in a below average season, it doesn't make him world class. Just as Ibra or Pogba not being POTY in a below average season does not make them average.

Why twist this to make it seem as though I am claiming Ibra, Pogba or DDG were not world class? The simple thing is, we scored less goals than Bournemouth and that drew fans' attention to Herrera being a consistent performer (best of the average lot).



You are again deliberately twisting what I said. I am discrediting nor crediting anyone. I am just replying to your accusation that I am not the only one who thinks he is average and that a vast majority of our fans overrated him. Obviously, he was vital last season as we needed him and thus those same fans who like him, voted for him.

I am not even discrediting your opinion. You are free to think he is world class, but do not try to keep criticising those who think he isn't. Your argument is by no means indisputable.



I am sorry, we are a top club and unless we have a system like Conte, we don't need two ball-winners, one of whom (Herrera) is more about side-passing and limited passing than actually contributing. Fellaini has exceeded him so far and fits more in the line of what we want, let us see if that keeps up.



If you perform poorly against weak opposition, you will be criticised. If you perform shite against the likes of Huddersfield and play well against an even weaker side (Swansea), that is no cause for praise.

Clearly, because apparently you can only be an AM or DM

Carrick barely played last season. Matic isn’t a replacement for a player who didn’t play. So, even though the original point has flown way above your head, I’ll repeat it: how is that an explanation as to why Herreras ball winning ability was inflated last season, while Matics is not this season? Which was YOUR original point. You’re jumping pillar to post so often you can’t even keep up with your own posts.

And still you are ignoring that against Huddersfield and Swansea he played two different positions. It’s not difficult. You’re judging him on how he performs in Pogbas position, not his own.

I’m not twisting it at all, I’m just challenging you to justify it. We had those players last season and he outperformed them. Damning for those players if Herrera is simply an average squad player and he does that.

So now you think having a defensive midfielder and a ball winning midfielder is the same thing? If Matic is a ball winning midfielder why doesn’t he win the ball nearly as much as Herrera? The two players aren’t even remotely similar, Matic is far more Carrick (would you describe him as a ball winner?) than he is Herrera.

So he was a vital player last season who was average? Brilliant!

Again here we go, I think he is ‘world class’ do I? This seems to be the basis of your posts now. Care to provide a quote for that? There is levels between average and world class, right? Much in the same way there’s positions between attacking and defending midfielders...

FWIW I’m fine with Herrera being benched. The formation Mourinho plays at the moment doesn’t call for him and Matic fits that role better. Doesn’t make him average though. In games where we require a three man midfield he’s vital and no one else in the squad can do what he does. Judging his ability by his performances in Pogbas position is plain silly.

 

[Kapardin]

Clearly, because apparently you can only be an AM or DM

Carrick barely played last season. Matic isn’t a replacement for a player who didn’t play. So, even though the original point has flown way above your head, I’ll repeat it: how is that an explanation as to why Herreras ball winning ability was inflated last season, while Matics is not this season? Which was YOUR original point. You’re jumping pillar to post so often you can’t even keep up with your own posts.

If Carrick barely played last season (which is not exactly true), that just shows why Herrera had such high ball winning stats.

Matic is a replacement for an aging Carrick who either played or did not play. That is a fact.

In either case, who denied Herrera was a good ball winner? Just that it is not enough, and that circumstances favored his ball winning stats. His passing and what he does with the ball leaves much to be desired.

Erm, who cares about Matic's stats this season? Eyes are enough to see he's been great and in any case, season's not over. We have also had more control in the initial games than last season.

And still you are ignoring that against Huddersfield and Swansea he played two different positions. It’s not difficult. You’re judging him on how he performs in Pogbas position, not his own.

Nope, I pointed out that if Swansea game is his best position, he belongs on the bench. Saw that?

I am not judging him based on Pogba's position. I am simply saying we don't need a defensive B2B or a ball-winner who does feck all other than that. We don't need him in DM because if Matic. We also know he is not, or no longer, an AM to give Pogba competition.

I’m not twisting it at all, I’m just challenging you to justify it. We had those players last season and he outperformed them. Damning for those players if Herrera is simply an average squad player and he does that.

Certainly was very damning, that these set of players scored less than Bournemouth. Precisely my point, that they did not perform well last season and so an average player like Herrera got POTY.

But this doesn't mean they are permanently so. Chelsea finished 10th and Leicester 1st, but that doesn't mean Chelsea are permanently shite. So, just a bad season for some good players.

So now you think having a defensive midfielder and a ball winning midfielder is the same thing? If Matic is a ball winning midfielder why doesn’t he win the ball nearly as much as Herrera? The two players aren’t even remotely similar, Matic is far more Carrick (would you describe him as a ball winner?) than he is Herrera.

Didn't I say in my last post that Matic is a replacement for Carrick?

Matic is a defensive mid, but he can also win the ball back, which he has done for us as well. Don't tell me a DM never does that. As he screens the defense well, we do not need a ball winner like Herrera.

Stop using hipster speak to dodge the obvious. Point is, we don't need two defensive minded mids, nor a ball winner whose passing leaves a lot to be desired.

So he was a vital player last season who was average? Brilliant!

He was vital cause we had no-one better. I never denied that. As an average player, he can "do a job".

Hypothetically, if Herrera and Matic get injured now, McTominay will be vital for us as he has to start every game. Doesn't make him a world beater.

Again here we go, I think he is ‘world class’ do I? This seems to be the basis of your posts now. Care to provide a quote for that? There is levels between average and world class, right? Much in the same way there’s positions between attacking and defending midfielders...

Herrera is capable of 2-3 exceptional performances
and a bunch of average ones. I'd class that as average for a club like ours. If you think that is above-average, then these are personal terminologies not worth arguing over.

The simple point is, is he adequate enough for United to compete at the highest level? Answer is no.

FWIW I’m fine with Herrera being benched. The formation Mourinho plays at the moment doesn’t call for him and Matic fits that role better. Doesn’t make him average though. In games where we require a three man midfield he’s vital and no one else in the squad can do what he does. Judging his ability by his performances in Pogbas position is plain silly.

Games where we require a three man midfield will be few. We will only require him to have a solid midfield againdt top teams.

If his passing was better and he was able to influence our attack more, Jose would bench Mkhi and go with a 4-3-3 now itself. That we play a 3 man midfield sparingly, is because we have a competent DM in Matic and a #10 is required as Herrera does not contribute much to attack. Think if Fellaini was available now, it us possible we might have tried a 4-3-3 and benching one of Mkhi or Mata due to poor form. Same cannot be said for Herrera.

A third ball winning mid or whatever terminology ou use for him, is not required for a top club.

 

[ivaldo]

If Carrick barely played last season (which is not exactly true), that just shows why Herrera had such high ball winning stats.

Matic is a replacement for an aging Carrick who either played or did not play. That is a fact.

In either case, who denied Herrera was a good ball winner? Just that it is not enough, and that circumstances favored his ball winning stats. His passing and what he does with the ball leaves much to be desired.

Erm, who cares about Matic's stats this season? Eyes are enough to see he's been great and in any case, season's not over. We have also had more control in the initial games than last season.



Nope, I pointed out that if Swansea game is his best position, he belongs on the bench. Saw that?

I am not judging him based on Pogba's position. I am simply saying we don't need a defensive B2B or a ball-winner who does feck all other than that. We don't need him in DM because if Matic. We also know he is not, or no longer, an AM to give Pogba competition.



Certainly was very damning, that these set of players scored less than Bournemouth. Precisely my point, that they did not perform well last season and so an average player like Herrera got POTY.

But this doesn't mean they are permanently so. Chelsea finished 10th and Leicester 1st, but that doesn't mean Chelsea are permanently shite. So, just a bad season for some good players.



Didn't I say in my last post that Matic is a replacement for Carrick?

Matic is a defensive mid, but he can also win the ball back, which he has done for us as well. Don't tell me a DM never does that. As he screens the defense well, we do not need a ball winner like Herrera.

Stop using hipster speak to dodge the obvious. Point is, we don't need two defensive minded mids, nor a ball winner whose passing leaves a lot to be desired.



He was vital cause we had no-one better. I never denied that. As an average player, he can "do a job".

Hypothetically, if Herrera and Matic get injured now, McTominay will be vital for us as he has to start every game. Doesn't make him a world beater.




Herrera is capable of 2-3 exceptional performances
and a bunch of average ones. I'd class that as average for a club like ours. If you think that is above-average, then these are personal terminologies not worth arguing over.

The simple point is, is he adequate enough for United to compete at the highest level? Answer is no.



Games where we require a three man midfield will be few. We will only require him to have a solid midfield againdt top teams.

If his passing was better and he was able to influence our attack more, Jose would bench Mkhi and go with a 4-3-3 now itself. That we play a 3 man midfield sparingly, is because we have a competent DM in Matic and a #10 is required as Herrera does not contribute much to attack. Think if Fellaini was available now, it us possible we might have tried a 4-3-3 and benching one of Mkhi or Mata due to poor form. Same cannot be said for Herrera.

A third ball winning mid or whatever terminology ou use for him, is not required for a top club.

If only there was the possibility of averaging out stats per game. If only such advanced technology existed!!

Sorry, didn’t know that was a facht Mr Benitez.

Why can you not discuss something without constant use of superlatives or extremities? Midfielders are either attacking or defensive, average or world class, apparently I said DMs don’t win the ball back.

At no point did I say Matic doesn’t win the ball back, but it must be abundantly clear, even to you, he does not win it back with the frequency of Herrera, because that’s what Herrera excels at. Still your comparing a DM with a box to box ball winning midfielder, and then to a playmaker.

If we are to be the club we once were, we will be competing in the latter stages of the champions league, fa and league cups and against the big 6. There’s plenty of games where a 3rd midfielder is required, and he is a more than capable back up to Matic at DM when required, as proven last season. Even if Mourinho staunchly rejects the concept of a 3 man midfield, it doesn’t make the players who don’t fit into his formation any less of a player.

He does nothing with the ball? Don’t be daft, how many central midfielders (not #10) produced more assists than he last season? Even against Swansea we saw his smart passing. Again you’re arguing in extremes. He’s not Pogba, but he certainly has a pass in him from deeper positions. I wonder whether you just became a fan of football 3 months ago.

 

[Kapardin]

If only there was the possibility of averaging out stats per game. If only such advanced technology existed!!

Sorry, didn’t know that was a facht Mr Benitez.

Considering you are the one haranguing about his ball-winning stats, you are the facht-master here.

Why can you not discuss something without constant use of superlatives or extremities? Midfielders are either attacking or defensive, average or world class, apparently I said DMs don’t win the ball back.

Nah, not all midfielders. Its' just Herrera who is not exceptionally good at anything but can do a lot of things.

At no point did I say Matic doesn’t win the ball back, but it must be abundantly clear, even to you, he does not win it back with the frequency of Herrera, because that’s what Herrera excels at. Still your comparing a DM with a box to box ball winning midfielder, and then to a playmaker.

OK, so now the argument is that Matic does not win the ball back as much as Herrera does. Who cares? Atleast Matic is not clueless when he has the ball, or look sideways or try to cover up his limited passing with a lot of running or pointing.

But does that mean we require Herrera when we have Matic, Fellaini and Pogba? Answer is no. Even in a midfield 3, Fellaini in current form gets ahead of Herrera.

f we are to be the club we once were, we will be competing in the latter stages of the champions league, fa and league cups and against the big 6. There’s plenty of games where a 3rd midfielder is required, and he is a more than capable back up to Matic at DM when required, as proven last season. Even if Mourinho staunchly rejects the concept of a 3 man midfield, it doesn’t make the players who don’t fit into his formation any less of a player.

Quite true. Fellaini, Matic and Pogba in a midfield 3 on current form. And we should be aspiring to be that club we once were, by the way. He can surely be a back-up to Matic, of course.

Herrera is not an average player because we do not use that formation. He is an average player because he wouldn't be ahead of Fellaino even in that formation, bar games where a lot of running is required (which is Fellaini's weakness).

He does nothing with the ball? Don’t be daft, how many central midfielders (not #10) produced more assists than he last season? Even against Swansea we saw his smart passing. Again you’re arguing in extremes. He’s not Pogba, but he certainly has a pass in him from deeper positions. I wonder whether you just became a fan of football 3 months ago.

Ah yes, the mighty Swansea.

OK, I am off to a movie. Despite our differences, I enjoyed this debate and I am glad we remained civil. One thing we can agree on though, is to hope that Herrera puts in a world class performance against Spurs as we desperately need it now. As I said before, I am always happy if one of our players perform well, though I have my opinions on them, and you have yours.

 

[Reynoldo]

Saw a BBC gossip column rumour saying we'd offer Herrera and Mata to Atletico for Saul Niguez. BS aside, would anyone not take this?

 

[RedDevil@84]

Saw a BBC gossip column rumour saying we'd offer Herrera and Mata to Atletico for Saul Niguez. BS aside, would anyone not take this?

Isn't he the signed to a 9 year contract? I believe Atletico would be looking at a galactico amount for him.

 

[ivaldo]

@Kapardin aye let’s leave it there, good chat. Enjoy the film.

 

[Reynoldo]

Isn't he the signed to a 9 year contract? I believe Atletico would be looking at a galactico amount for him.

Saw a rumour of £70-80m but again take with a pinch of salt. Anyway my question wasn't the authenticity of the rumour just would anyone be against it.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

What exactly does he offer? Average at everything especially anything linked to attacking and so easy for opposition players to dribble past him. He is superb at moaning at the ref though

The sooner Pogba is back and he's benched the better.

 

[Bojan11]

Diabolical so far. Either gives the ball away or passes it sidewards.

 

[Fredo]

Hes very good at intercepting attacks and offers great cover for our fullbacks, missing his neat touch going forward

 

[Elokobi]

Scary how good Pogba made this guy look.

So average its worrying, really gives me Cleverley flashbacks with some of the stuff he does.

 

[crackers0seven]

Lots of energy. No quality. Not up to the United standards of old,maybe he is these day. He did mark Hazard out of a game once though..

 

[ivaldo]

What exactly does he offer? Average at everything especially anything linked to attacking and so easy for opposition players to dribble past him. He is superb at moaning at the ref though

The sooner Pogba is back and he's benched the better.

Winning the ball back, it’s not hard to figure out. He’s not a playmaker, stop judging him as one.

He’s been no worse than Matic these past few years, one gets a free ride, the other doesn’t.

 

[OneUnited24]

Looks like fletcher mark 2. Lots of energy and some good end product but overall I don’t think he’s good enough. At least fletcher gave us a amazing season

 

[Scarecrow]

Lots of energy. No quality. Not up to the United standards of old,maybe he is these day. He did mark Hazard out of a game once though..

Probably what his United career will be remember for. That and getting Gerrard that red card. Seems unlikely that he'll surpass any of those.

 

[Jacky Quacky]

Cant wait for Pogba to be back so the most overrated player of the team leaves.

 

[Slevs]

My favorite player in recent years, nothing playwr nowadays. We need to improve on him.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Winning the ball back, it’s not hard to figure out. He’s not a playmaker, stop judging him as one.

He isn't even winning the ball back! Spurs players are ghosting past him at ease. And when he occasionally does win the ball back, his selection of passing is always sideways and backwards, often putting our defenders under even more pressure, which is absolutely zero use.

 

[Bojan11]

Valencia was in a tight spot at one stage in the first half. Did very well to get out of it, passes to Herrera who then instantly passes it sidewards.

 

[SwansonsTache]

Watching this display it is even more infuriating that we let the dippers run away with Keita, he is about 10x the player.

 

[ivaldo]

He isn't even winning the ball back! Spurs players are ghosting past him at ease. And when he occasionally does win the ball back, his selection of passing is always sideways and backwards, often putting our defenders under even more pressure, which is absolutely zero use.

He is, he’s done it several times, and more than Matic.

Who’s passing selection has been good this game?

 

[Canagel]

What exactly does he offer? Average at everything especially anything linked to attacking and so easy for opposition players to dribble past him. He is superb at moaning at the ref though

The sooner Pogba is back and he's benched the better.

I'd have Fellaini over Herrera as well.

 

[Kag]

Bloody hell, the narrative is strong. He's just about the only player even trying to make a mark on the game. He's winning the ball and doing his job.

You can't objectively watch him today and pretend he's been "diabolical". It's plainly untrue, especially when you consider his midfield partners are giving the ball away for fun.

 

[NinjaFletch]

He isn't even winning the ball back! Spurs players are ghosting past him at ease. And when he occasionally does win the ball back, his selection of passing is always sideways and backwards, often putting our defenders under even more pressure, which is absolutely zero use.

Most tackles won in the team, and most interceptions too in that half.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

I'd have Fellaini over Herrera as well.

100%. A player that will give his all over this moaner.

 

[Eyepopper]

He's a hard worker, but he's no Darren Fletcher!

 

[ivaldo]

Bloody hell, the narrative is strong. He's just about the only player even trying to make a mark on the game. He's winning the ball and doing his job.

You can't objectively watch him today and pretend he's been "diabolical". It's plainly untrue, especially when you consider his midfield partners are giving the ball away for fun.

It’s patheic isn’t it? It’s tunnel vision at this point, Matic next to him has been non existent and yet not a single post in his thread - and not for the first time either.

 

[ivaldo]

Most tackles won in the team, and most interceptions too in that half.

@IrishRedDevil. Going to comment on it?

 

[Kag]

100%. A player that will give his all over this moaner.

 

[Amar__]

Playing much better than Matic, and no point even rating Mkhi. Getting all the criticism though.

 

[Idxomer]

I'm not his fan, but he's playing today much better than Matic who's doing his best Houdini impersonation.

 

[Ace of Spades]

He is showing fight, just needs to calm it down a bit. He needs help though from his midfield.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Do people even watch us play?

 

[#07]

Good first half. Don't understand the criticism he's getting.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Playing much better than Matic, and no point even rating Mkhi. Getting all the criticism though.

Matic has been quite shit this game.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

@IrishRedDevil. Going to comment on it?

How many? 1 each? Are we counting the one on Son where he gave a foul away?

Like I said, look at the bigger picture also. Even when he wins the ball his selection of passing is cowardly and puts our defenders under even more pressure.

He has absolutely no composure on the ball, he just wants to get rid of it asap to the nearest player beside/behind him.

He will be straight to the bench when Fellaini is back and that says it all. And then he will be behind Pogba, Matic and Fellaini again.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Bloody hell, the narrative is strong. He's just about the only player even trying to make a mark on the game. He's winning the ball and doing his job.

You can't objectively watch him today and pretend he's been "diabolical". It's plainly untrue, especially when you consider his midfield partners are giving the ball away for fun.

It’s patheic isn’t it? It’s tunnel vision at this point, Matic next to him has been non existent and yet not a single post in his thread - and not for the first time either.

Agreed, he's not been great but nowhere near as bad as everyone else is saying.

It's a fundamental problem. Our two central defenders and full backs are scared of the ball and will go long EVERY time.

Miki is drifting so it's essentially Herrera and Matic against 4 Spurs midfield. No control of the game at all.

Mourinho needs to tell the players to step up at home and take responsbility on the ball.