The best put post I've seen in this thread!
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The best put post I've seen in this thread!
I said Herrera is very important because there is no one who is actually capable of doing his role for us in our team. You don't have to look beyond the Hull game when he helped us get a point by being the only player tracking back when they broke through on goal.
You still haven't mentioned a single player who can perform his role for us. Carrick is definitely not that player for us. Pogba surely isn't. Fellani - not a chance. So who?
Basically says you seem to have an agenda against Herrera.
Don't think anyone is underestimating his contribution this season it's been excellent but I think a few are saying we could have someone better. There are without doubt other areas of the team that need improving first but eventually Herrera will get replaced as he imo does not or has not shown enough to merit a place long term in terms of overall output. He's our new Nicky Butt a great player to have but not a Scholes or Keane.
No you replied to my post without reading it properly and if you hadn't been so half arsed you'd read through the thread and realise I have stated on numerous occasions he's a good player. But long term we need better but that's just my opinion. The over rating of him is just ridiculous on here.
Is there anything better in a player discussion thread when someone makes a baseless comment and you can come back after less than 1 mins research and completely blow it out of the water?
Why don't people do this before they make these comments.
So you think he's one of the most important players in our team because he does his job? Like Rojo, Valencia, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan do theirs?
I agree wholeheartedly there isn't a direct replacement in our squad. But that is our squad where we only have 3 central midfielders available (and then Fellaini). When judging how good a player one should look relative to their peers in the league or in the world, not just the squad alone.
If you followed my posts you'l find I just had a problem with people saying how "great" Herrera is as a player. He's not as great as the caf suggests - there are many players in the league alone who are on the same level: Coquelan, Gueye, Kante, Dembele to name a few in the teams above us.
To be fair I have learnt to not rely on stats to tell who is better player as they are usually arbitrary stats that are focused on. That said, stats have some use, especially when comparing a players direct contribution in the type of actions we were discussing.
Strange that Herrera has often been Motm against Arsenal in his career in spite of the mighty Coquelin and he completely outshone Dembele when we played Spurs.......
Of the 4 players you mentioned, we have direct replacements in our squad for the ones in bold who can do as well or maybe even better than them this season. Valencia and Zlatan are obviously not replaceable in our current squad. Herrera is also one of them. Just shows how important of a player he is when he has to be one of the 3-4 players in the squad who needs to be on our team sheet.
So yeah, there are a couple of players as good as Herrera in the league. Dembele and Kante are the only two I would say are as good as Herreral. Coquelin doesn't have the technical ability and haven't seen enough of Gueye to comment.
However, that just shows how "great" Herrera has been when he has been statistically better and generally better (IMO) than the best player in the league last season (Kante). What more do you want him to do before he can be classed as United standard? Obviously there are world class players in his position but they are either not attainable or they will cost a bomb but won't be a huge improvement on what Herrera is offering us now.
He does not have to be a Scholes/Keane because we expect that from Pogba. Carrick wasn't also a Scholes or a Keane but he has been absolutely vital for us over the years. You don't have to be the best talent in the world to be crucial to a team and be an excellent player in the set up. For our set up, I cannot think of too many players out there who will do a better job than Herrera is doing for us now. Simply put, he is essential to how we play and how well we play.
So you are agreeing intentionally or not, that Herrera's importance stems in no small part down to a lack of options in that role rather than the players performances as a standalone. If you were to look at standalone performances for the team and not the squad, Mkhitaryan Zlatan Valencia Bailly and Carrick are all ahead of him.
Which is the point I've made - he's been good but not great
Coquelan is very competent on the ball, and Gueye is similar in his defensive duties (see stats Vs Herrera? I am not an avid fan of stats but I'm assuming there wont be much between them.
Here we go with that word again - he's not been better for us than Kante was for Leicester - that is outright ridiculous. You don't have to be world class to be better than Herrera either. As mentioned before I'd take Nianggolan for example and he's comfortably a better player.
I like that comparison. All the same, he'll play an important role to United rise to the top.
Yeah for sure and no way should we offload him but we should look for an upgrade from an 8 who can offer that bit more.
This thread reminds me of the Blind thread where there was a lot of posters (less know) who claimed he was the future at centre back now we have Bailly the numbers saying this is much less and id imagine the same with Herrera.
I did present you stats. Heart, passion and determination are in addition to that. Again, his defensive stats are possibly the best in the league for a player playing in his position and he completes more forward passes per game than guys like Kante, Dembele.
The major problem in people's criticism of Herrera is that we just want a marquee signing in every position and Herrera never was and never will be that marquee player.
The Herrera/Kante comparison is getting silly now. Kante walks into all but probably 1 midfield in world football. Again, the stats are what they are but just watch the games. Kante is at another level.
You wouldn't for example say that Lukaku is a better striker than Costa, Ibra, Sanchez etc just because he's to of the scoring chart.
You wouldn't for example say that Lukaku is a better striker than Costa, Ibra, Sanchez etc just because he's to of the scoring chart.
Sure Kante is better but Herrera has better stats, so can't be way worse that upgrading him is sort of a priority
I love Herrera to bits, but I have to agree. Didn't watch Chelsea much earlier in the season, but only the last 3-4 games, which I did watch, really does point to that conclusion. Herrera is still a very good player to have, and he does offer much more going forward.
The stats don't make sense because the comparison itself is not very valid. Kante is a pure ball winner with an incredible motor while Herrera is a completely different style of midfielder who contributes more in attack with key passes than he does in defense. The fact that he's having to play deeper has more to do with necessity and a lack of options than anything else.
Plenty of midfielders play with passion mate you are over playing this card.
Ronaldo didn't bleed for the club but I'd take him over Herrera.
Some say Rooney has held the club to ransom but I'd take Rooney over him.
We always need those qualities but in a midfielder that isn't enough, I like Herrera he is a good player, he isn't world class tho let's not get carried away
what you don't understand on defensive nous Lawman? Best stats in the league are backing him and just by watching him must be clear to you to say he has a defensive nous, it's almost the same bullshit when you said he lacks any leadership skills, he definitely doesn't, just get a grip already
True. Herrera is a very nice player that many teams would be happy to have. He's just not world class at what he does like Kante is.
plenty of midfielders? why do you then mention Rooney and Ronaldo in the same sentence? I am myself not stating Herrera is world class either but in things he does he is one of the best in the league and I cant imagine playing team full of primadonas ala ronaldo functioning, you have to understand that there are players who just have to carry the water for the team right? Pogba having such freedom is only down to Ander's brilliant positional sense, ability adjust to follow exactly Mourinho's instructions, of course Pogba will look better to some of you guys because all what is nice to you is to score goals do fancy stuff to have joy from the football, if there is noone willing to make the run for you you will never have anyone to pass the ball to, if there is no one to make talkes for your team or read the game well, you might never even get onto ball ffs? that's why you have defenders, midfielders and attackers easily put for your understanding.Every player in the team has instruction to carry so the team works the best and win the games, if you have team full of 11 ronaldos you will definitely lose against a compact side with only two ronaldos per team but with other brilliant players in their positions no doubt about that..
Ridiculously underappreciated.
In which world had Carrick been better than Herrera? Carrick has had a few good games for us this season but we have got on fine without him. Seriously I need to stop this discussion because you don't get the point or are purposely being obtuse when you quote Bailly and Carrick as more important players to this team, especially considering that we have done fine without both but we have no one to replace Herrera with.
As far as Kante is concerned, yes he was brilliant last season but Herrera has been better this season and I don't understand what exactly you are trying to prove by bringing up last season's performances by Kante for Leicester.
As for Nainggolan, it is again a case of the grass being greener and all. You have no idea how he will deal playing the role Herrera has had to play for us. So yes, you are way off the mark. Just because you will prefer another player doesn't mean Herrera is worse than him especially considering what we see every week and the stats themselves.
Kante is not world class just like Herrera isn't. That's ridiculous. Both are very good players with Herrera outperforming Kante this season.
You are right. Stats aren't everything bt watching games are. Your midfield was torn apart by Spurs wih Kante in it. You are dreaming if you think Kante would walk into every team bar one.
What? Nobody is saying Herrera is world class. He's just class for us which is fine by me.
But then Kante would walk into all but 1 midfields in football. What utter tripe! He's ridiculously overrated on here. Even more so after Leicester's return to normalcy and Chelsea being top.
People like to think Kante has really changed Chelsea's fortune single-handedly. It's more down to team ethic. Costa & Hazard getting their arses in gear for a change; dull, boring players like Alonso(ex Bolton & Sunderland) and Moses turning good; reliable displays by Cahill, Azpi, Pedro , Matic etc. not to mention Conte himself.
But then Kante would walk into all but 1 midfields in football. What utter tripe! He's ridiculously overrated on here. Even more so after Leicester's return to normalcy and Chelsea being top.
People like to think Kante has really changed Chelsea's fortune single-handedly. It's more down to team ethic. Costa & Hazard getting their arses in gear for a change; dull, boring players like Alonso(ex Bolton & Sunderland) and Moses turning good; reliable displays by Cahill, Azpi, Pedro , Matic etc. not to mention Conte himself.
Interceptions as an 8 high up the pitch from pressing and harrying players is way different to having defensive nous you might want to learn that before telling folk to get a grip.
Show me the stats the demonstrate a blocked angle to a front man or where the defensive midfield see's his team mate out of position and he directs the opposition play the other way.
Show me the stats where it says who keeps the shape and who gives the signal to press or drop or when to go tight and compact or step off play.
This is why stats although useful are not the be and end all.
I do think he lacks leadership but that's my opinion I can't think of a time when we have been losing that he has driven us on like a Keane, Ince, Robson or Scholes in recent years or even as I see Pogba do now.
I watched Pogba have a mare recently and instead of taking that little bit more responsibility on the ball Herrera kept picking it up and giving it to Pogba (5 yards away sometimes even behind him) who was playing beside him in a midfield 2 that day.
That's what I'm talking about leadership not running about putting tackles in for feck sake Phil Neville could do that in midfield for us.
There is no extra stat to show. In case you haven't noticed the stat Herrera has beefed up most is not "tackles". It's "interceptions". I repeat "interceptions". A player needs to be able to cover passing angles well in order to make as many interceptions as Herrera did.
And he has kept shape well when Carrick isn't on the pitch. Then you'd say that Herrera doesn't offer ANYTHING in attack. But when Carrick's playing with Herrera pressing ahead, he's suddenly a headless chicken. Can't have it both ways.
If Pogba, world's most expensive player can't grab the ball & dictate the tempo and has to rely on an inferior player in Herrera, technique-wise, there's no point in him playing.
In case you haven't noticed yet, what Herrera excels at is "interceptions".
He does go around tackling people like Phil Neville and more often than not wins those. But he isn't running for the sake it. He is covering space as he is closing down the opponent. So, if he fails to win the tackle, no problem, he is going to intercept the pass. It's clever pressing. Not running like a headless chicken as you imply.
The one thing that annoys me, is the 'we play better with Carrick' or 'Carrick is more influential' without realising it's not so much it's Carrick being 's the decicding factor, it's the fact Carrick is the extra body/midfielder.
When has Herrera played in a 3 man midfield without Carrick this season? It's usually with Fellani (who inexplicably plays ahead of him AND Pogba) or with Mata/Rooney at the 10, which essentially means you've lost that body in the middle of the park as those two are way more attack minded (not to mention one being useless).
Herrera is not a complete player but I'd say put an energy guy behind him and we'd see much better results than replacing him and playing Carrick.
Carrick has done a very good job as part of the trio but his lack of legs and natural tendency to react means he's more likely to take a step back than forward. Our whole team has problems as a result moving faster forward.
When has Herrera played in a 3 man midfield without Carrick this season? It's usually with Fellani (who inexplicably plays ahead of him AND Pogba) or with Mata/Rooney at the 10, which essentially means you've lost that body in the middle of the park as those two are way more attack minded (not to mention one being useless).
Herrera is not a complete player but I'd say put an energy guy behind him and we'd see much better results than replacing him and playing Carrick.
Carrick has done a very good job as part of the trio but his lack of legs and natural tendency to react means he's more likely to take a step back than forward. Our whole team has problems as a result moving faster forward.
Name a single player in world football who is as effective in his role as Kante is. None. He is the best in the world at what he does. Other than Real Madrid and Barca he'd walk into any XI in the world.
Herrera is not outperforming Kante this season. Every week you hear ex-pros, pundits, journalists, and fans of all clubs raving about how awesome he is and some saying they've never seen a player quite like him. He was in the team of the season last year and will be again this year.
Don't think you'll find anyone (if so, very few) outside of Man Utd fans who would have Herrera over Kante or even suggest he's been better this season. You picking out a game or two where he was subpar doesn't take away from the fact that he's been consistently outstanding for a season and a half now.
Hell, I don't even think Herrera is one of the 3 best CM/DM's in the league. Kante, Dembele, and Fernandinho (when he can actually stay on the pitch) are all better.
This thread! There are very few players who have the all-round game to play in a midfield 2 with Pogba. The mix of energy, defensive ability and quality on the ball is rare to find these days. He plays very safe passes because if he loses the ball he will leave the defence dangerously exposed.
Herrera has been excellent for United this season. Kante is better for Chelsea than Herrera would be because his strengths are suited to the way Chelsea play. But Herrera is much better suited at United where the main source of attack isn't counter attack.
Dembele is a good player but could not play in a 2 with Pogba.
Fernandinho is actually a very good call. I think he could play that role very well also. He is a very underrated player and also plays behind other midfielders with limited defensive instincts. I still wouldn't swap him for Herrera though.
Herrera has been excellent for United this season. Kante is better for Chelsea than Herrera would be because his strengths are suited to the way Chelsea play. But Herrera is much better suited at United where the main source of attack isn't counter attack.
Dembele is a good player but could not play in a 2 with Pogba.
Fernandinho is actually a very good call. I think he could play that role very well also. He is a very underrated player and also plays behind other midfielders with limited defensive instincts. I still wouldn't swap him for Herrera though.
All I'm saying is his passion and determination are an added bonus. I'd readily take a 7/10 quality player with 10/10 passion than 9/10 quality player who doesn't care about the club like Di Maria. We have enough quality in the side and Ander's presence is not lowering that but we don't have a lot of players who'd do anything for the badge, but Ander will.
And then there is his awareness in the game-a point that often gets overlooked. Foul vs Lukaku in fa cup semis and this year vs Firmino are possibly the prime examples of his understanding of the game.You may treat them as stupid yellows but they were game saving fouls and something not many players would be willing to do
Bit of an unnecessary long post, you agree with me about him not being world class, this was the point I was making.
Rooney because he also did the water carrying job in terms of playing left wing for a spell
It's possible to have ball winning midfielders that are world class you know.
Why does it have to be just the choice of 7/10 with passion and some one who doesn't want to be here?
His awareness is actually something that I find let's him down he often makes side ways one touch passes when there is a pass forward, or space to turn into.
Again your picking out a part of his game pretty much every player in the league has, so many players get booked on a regular basis because they make tactical fouls
Some realistic transfer options please? We always list Vidal and the likes but none of them are realistic. Hardly anyone has that passion to play for us- look at Vidal's case- we were reportedly interested in him, if he did fancy us, he'd have joined us then.
It's our obsession with big names that is behind all this criticism. Like I said earlier, he is statistically better than the benchmark we have set for players in his role, Kante. So, all other factors considered, he can't be that worse than him that we demand a replacement
I like him a lot but to me not sure her or any of our current midfielders look natural playing in a 3 and this is a big problem. He is technically good and combative but would describe him as athletic and I think we don't have enough courage to get around the pitch enough. It would help if there was some natural partnerships in midfield but those are often midfielders linking with forward players (Pogba /Ibra) than with midfielders. No Kate/Matic here....
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