His pass completion is about as good as any other midfielder in the top 6-7 (Coquelan, Kante, Henderson, Gueye, Dembele).
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His pass completion is about as good as any other midfielder in the top 6-7 (Coquelan, Kante, Henderson, Gueye, Dembele).
Most players will have the commitment the likes of Rojo mata herrera and all have. Every player will be devoted to the club only if we pay them the wages they want. Do you think Herrera (or any of our players for that matter) will stay here if we offer him £60k when he actually wants £100k? Even the likes of lingard would probably leave if we don't pay wages they want.
Fair point on Schneiderlin, he wasn't exactly a gun for hire, but neither did I see him display a true passion for the club. You can be professional and work hard in a training and still not have the mentality that most people would argue is vital for a club like United (a winning mentality and a true desire to bleed for your club). So although Schneiderlin probably doesn't fall into the same category as Di Maria and Falcao, I think he does fall into the category of not having the emotional toughness we need here.
I'm a little confused by your second complaint. I never said the likes of Nainggolan, Kante, Saul etc were marquee players, and I certainly don't mean to imply that they're definitely mercenaries who think they're bigger than the club they play for, but I do think that a player that we KNOW has United in his heart and soul shouldn't be replaced by a moderately more talented player who doesn't necessarily have the same love, to fill a function that the former player (Herrera) is already fulfilling more than adequately. For the record, I'd actually take Saul or Weigl as someone to play alongside Herrera, as a replacement for Carrick, but that's a debate for another time.
Finally, you've put words in my mouth a bit by suggesting I'm saying we shouldn't upgrade on Herrera because of our experiences with the likes of Di Maria and Falcao. Certainly it's a contributing factor, but my main point is that Herrera talks about United like he's an academy graduate, and plays like he is to. As though this club is his life, and he owes everything to us (even though he doesn't really). I'm arguing that such an attitude is hard to come by, and it's an attitude that means he'll always fight that extra bit harder than most players. That, for me, is far more valuable than a bit more talent. And if you ask the greatest champion this club has ever seen (who by the way, kept plenty of moderately talented players around when he could have brought in more talented upgrades), I'm certain he would tell you the same.
Yeah, I can't find much wrong with what you've said. Although I disagree with the notion that upgrading on Herrera for better players such as say, Nianggolan should be avoided because the same passion might not be there for the latter. Nianggolan is a very good footballer, too good for Roma, and he has shown loyalty to Roma during times of club interest. If we were to buy him in a deal viable for all parties, I genuinely think we'd get someone just as pasisonate.
Also, WRT Schneiderlin, I recall him being very optimistic even when shafted out. He said he was eager to impress Mourinho and not give up. The manager also had very good words about him, so I don't think he showed any less fight. He just wanted to play and IMHO didn't get the chance Herrera did for whatever reason Mourinho saw fit.
I just found a flaw with your examples of Di Maria/Falcao to explain why we shouldn't undervalue Herrera's passion. I think the examples you used are quite extreme and other historic transfers (Rojo, Bailly, Valencia, Pogba, etc) have the mentality we look for. To me this suggests the profile of finding a passionate player, loyal and one with a winning mentality is not so rare. Honestly the likes of Nianggolan, Dembele, Weigl, Saul all have it.
Noted you'd like Saul/Weigl to play alongside Herrera (I can understand Weigl but I'd have thought Saul/Niangollan would be more of a direct replacement).
Yeah, but Herrera probably has the least % of forward passes. He loves a good sideways pass to Valencia/Mata, which he'll probably get straight back, then pass to Rojo and then Pogba/Carrick will actually pass it forwards.
Nope. Only Henderson makes use of the ball better. The rest avg less forward passes and less chances created.
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...al_forward_passes/chances_created/assists#avg
Good old underrated Henderson
When herrara is playing in a midfield 2 with pogba, with pogba the more advanced midfielder herrara is there to shield the back 4. I think a reason he doesn't play more risky or forward passes is because we don't lose possession.
Also ive noticed he always passes and moves into space, it speeds up our play and creates space.
Also ive noticed he always passes and moves into space, it speeds up our play and creates space.
Its pointless using stats in these arguments about Ander. People have their views on him and no matter how many Squawka, Opta or WhoScored stuff you post people will ignore it. I should know, I've posted loads!
The conversation around Ander reminds me a lot of the way we used to talk about Carrick before Scholes retired. Not saying they have the same game, simply that some fans regard them similarly. For example, Loads of people thought it was great we were getting Hargreaves to 'replace' Carrick. Loads of people thought Fletch's emergence marked the end of Carrick. Loads of people said Carrick only passed to Scholes.
I think Ander suffers from being a fan favourite. Some fans, for some reason, find it hard to love someone who is loved. They think the fans make excuses for Ander because we have a soft spot for him.
The truth is we back Ander because we know nobody else in our side could go to Anfield and turn the ball over 17 times for us. The truth is we back Ander because he almost always shows up in the big games. The truth is we back him because he's actually really good. If both Jose Mourinho and Julen Lopetegui can see that, I don't see why many on the CAF can't.
I feel some believe that because he went to Anfield and stuck it to them whilst getting Gerrard sent off, that he has been overrated because of this, but the truth is what you said. I don't mind if he doesn't start every match. I think the issue people have is neither he nor Pogba can dictate or dominate a game so when Carrick is out or tired, then we have no control of the game. We should be looking at upgrading Carrick and seeing what impact that has on Ander and Pogba. Both can have very good games and then be a liability to the other the next time. Its a weird duo.Its pointless using stats in these arguments about Ander. People have their views on him and no matter how many Squawka, Opta or WhoScored stuff you post people will ignore it. I should know, I've posted loads!
The conversation around Ander reminds me a lot of the way we used to talk about Carrick before Scholes retired. Not saying they have the same game, simply that some fans regard them similarly. For example, Loads of people thought it was great we were getting Hargreaves to 'replace' Carrick. Loads of people thought Fletch's emergence marked the end of Carrick. Loads of people said Carrick only passed to Scholes.
I think Ander suffers from being a fan favourite. Some fans, for some reason, find it hard to love someone who is loved. They think the fans make excuses for Ander because we have a soft spot for him.
The truth is we back Ander because we know nobody else in our side could go to Anfield and turn the ball over 17 times for us. The truth is we back Ander because he almost always shows up in the big games. The truth is we back him because he's actually really good. If both Jose Mourinho and Julen Lopetegui can see that, I don't see why many on the CAF can't.
Fair enough. I should watch other teams play a bit more. And it's hard not to look a bit negative with your play when you're playing with such pass masters as Pogba and Carrick.
I am a big Herrera fan. I don't feel we need to replace him immediately. That said, he has a strange combination of attributes. He is our turnover player, but lacks physical attributes like Kante or Vidal (pace, power, strength,stamina). He can pass the ball but isn't a pass master so he is almost caught between two specialist types. I would prefer a more beastly ball winner but then Henderson does well and he isn't exactly that.
I did present some of the stats for Zlatan in one of the other posts, which basically highlights his conversion rate to be 1 in 6 shots from inside the box(excluding penalties)
As far as DDG is concerned, as much as I love him, I don't think he's had that much influence. He has made some proper blunders. Herrera's mistakes haven't been of that scale. And rather than comparing whose negatives outweigh the others, lets compare the positives-13 more interceptions among Midfieldfers than 2nd place Kante. The distance he covers, the heart with which he plays, the passion- you can't say he'd look out of place in even some of our more glorious sides due to his work ethic. (P.S. not saying Herrera among our best ever midfielders, just that Herrera is good enough to be in the subs bench for our 2000s sides)
And there we have it, this is my opinion as well which is why although not a priority right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see us aim higher once our more urgent positions are sorted
I mean everyone in the world must be stupid to blindly trust and make conclusions based on this scary mysterious thing they call stats. Pretty sure even Trump would struggle to manipulate stats to make that Leon Britton claim, but good try.
Herrera is dominating the midfield for our team. If you won't take my word for it, at least believe the stats. Kante is also dominating the midfield for his team; however, Herrera's domination is statistically better in every relevant midfielder category per 90 mins (tackles, interceptions, blocks, clearances, headers, chances created, dribbles, passing %) except his shooting and tackling %. Now i'm not saying Herrera is a world class player. He still has gaps in his game related to composure, shooting, and consistency. But he's having a great year playing as our enforcer so give credit where credit is due. Herrera simply contributes more to a team both defensively and offensively. Kante can't match that.
And that is more because we had keane and scholes. We didn't exactly need passion,a vocal presence in that side, a player who understood what the club stands for. Right now, we do and hence his place becomes all the more important.
Herrera's probably been the best CM in the League this season. Incredible just how underrated he is on here.
What exactly is it people on here thinks Herrera excels at, and what is his job in the United side? Maybe I'm blind, I think he's a good player, but I keep reading about how brilliant he is, yet fail to see it.
And regarding stats against other players in similar positions. I won't talk about all teams, but in the Spurs side Dembeles main job is to beat the press, keep possession and win back possession quickly. Also covering for our wingbacks. If you want to measure stats it's all well and good, but we need to know that a central midfielder for United may have different responsibilities than a central midfielder playing for a rival.
And regarding stats against other players in similar positions. I won't talk about all teams, but in the Spurs side Dembeles main job is to beat the press, keep possession and win back possession quickly. Also covering for our wingbacks. If you want to measure stats it's all well and good, but we need to know that a central midfielder for United may have different responsibilities than a central midfielder playing for a rival.
In a defensive sense, he has been pretty much our midfield. He closes people down, blocks passing channels, and is consistently adjusting his position to allow Pogba the freedom to go wherever he wants. You can dismiss stats but at least look at a heatmap. You will see Pogba spending a great amount of time on the left wing almost and Herrera is the one who is in the right positions to stop counterattacks.
You are not blind but for example remember that counterattack where he pulled back Firmino and got a yellow card? Of course you do. Something noticeable happened. Had Firmino tried to run into that space and got blocked by Herrera (legally), he would've had to pass sideways or backwards, stifling that attack. That, you wouldn't have noticed.
A lot of the defensive work in midfield is about positioning. People for years have struggled with the idea of Carrick because he is not an interception king nor a tackling monster but he is often in the right place to disrupt the opposition's attack. Neville did some great analysis on Carrick last season (or maybe the one before) on MNF to highlight just that; the attacks Carrick stops just by being in the right place consistently. Herrera has been doing that but also on top of that he has more interceptions and tackles. He is not quite at the level of Kante in terms of interceptions, tackles, or energy and he is not on the level of Carrick in terms of distribution and positioning but he has a good mix of both players' attributes which makes him an excellent player. In an attacking sense, his short passing is great, his long passing is good but could be better. He averaged 1.2 key passes a game which is not outstanding but not terrible. It is the same number that Lallana has for example. Ibra is at 1.4 and Pogba is 2.
The grass seems always greener on the other side but there is honestly very few midfielders in the world who have the mix of attributes he has and are better than him. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of midfielders better than him (before someone jumps all over that) but he is more complete, even if not at a world class level, than a lot of modern day midfielders.
I'm surprised he is getting underrated in here. I think he has been our most important player after Zlatan this season.
Thanks.
Then we are seeing more or less the same thing. From what I have seen he is positionally aware, disciplined, and overall good at most things (yet master at none). Do you think his best role is to be a holding midfield player, similar with Carrick and cover space. Or more of a runner who harass players like Kante?
Personally I think there are many players out there around his level. But I guess just like I wouldn't swap either of our starting midfieldefs for Hererra, perhaps you wouldn't swap Hererra for any of ours either.
Thanks.
Then we are seeing more or less the same thing. From what I have seen he is positionally aware, disciplined, and overall good at most things (yet master at none). Do you think his best role is to be a holding midfield player, similar with Carrick and cover space. Or more of a runner who harass players like Kante?
Personally I think there are many players out there around his level. But I guess just like I wouldn't swap either of our starting midfieldefs for Hererra, perhaps you wouldn't swap Hererra for any of ours either.
He's sort of a hybrid depending on the game situation. This is what distinguishes him in my opinion over any other midfielder is his intelligence, knowing when to press, when to provide cover, and when to dictate pay. His ability to shift roles mid-game gives us a flexibility you really couldn't find from any other player bar maybe Henderson and Dembele. Herrera has proven far more consistent than those two and gets the nod in my opinion.
Interesting. I can see how flexibility is a plus, and useful. I'll try to look out for him more next game I watch
I'm surprised people use stats to back their point up (fair enough) then come out with waffle like and he has passion and he loves United or he's a great guy etc etc.
none of this matters really as Keane our leader for years was a bit of a cock but that didn't stop him being brilliant.
Plus as much as stats are good and tell us one thing like turn over rate what it does omit is things like choice of pass or the way our midfielder makes the opposition make their passes.
For instance when you are playing centre back and you have a good midfield in front of you he can get you out of trouble or make your life much easier by his starting position and who he leaves open for the opposition to pass to. Carrick was brilliant at this as Hargreaves and Fletcher got better. Scholesy not so great but then had that unique passing skill set and ability to keep the ball that over rode this.
Herrera imo has not got this hence he's poor at number 6 plus his choice of passing is not up to building our play.
I'm not saying he's a bad player he's definitely not he's a good player he's just not a 6 and their are plenty of players out there that I would rather have as an 8.
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Seems to be the most irrationally hated player in the team. Does his job almost every game, haven't seen him outclassed this season against anyone, in fact for most big games he has been the standout midfielder. Perfect as a foil to Pogba, and excellent in pressing and to an extent in defence.
Why exaggerate? No one hates him here.
Because I was reading over the last 2-3 pages and it seems he is considered a mediocre overrated placeholder. How one can see him play and think that I don't understand.
I believe it cuts both ways some of the criticism may be over the top but same could be said about the unwarranted praise lavished upon him reality is somewhere in between , he is good enough for where we are right now as a team but unfortunately not good enough for where we want to be in future and would definitely be upgraded or have reduced role going forward.
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He's overrated here, that much is fact. He's not hated like you claim though, it's almost as though if someone doesn't think he's great then they're haters. This is redcafe not a Drake concert!
I am sorry but what! Scholes was not good at helping us build out from the back!
As for Herrera, I don't need stats (which btw are in his favor) but anyone who sees us play can clearly notice how he is the one actually running our midfield - much more than Pogba. Without him, we don't have a single midfielder who has that kind of mobility, defensive nous and ability on the ball all packed in a single midfielder.
IMO, apart from Real and Juve (for sure), and maybe Dortmund, Bayern, Chelsea, and Barca, he would not be a big downgrade for most teams' midfields. I'm a Carrick fan but if we ever go up against these teams that's the weak link. He'd be ok at City or Arsenal, probably ok at Chelsea, a slight downgrade on an off-form Rakitic, and would fit well ahead of Weigl at Dortmund. Only Kroos-Modric and probably Marchisio-Khedira-Pjanic are levels above him.
You are underrating him. I don't think the majority think he is world class. He is a class player who has been one of the best ones of us this season.
He can easily displace Khedira. Cannot believe the German is overrated on here.
He's a major goal threat (from highlights), something Herrera can never be.
He is a box-to-box but does not have the defensive duties of Herrera under Mourinho. Put Khedira in our set up and you will soon realize how big a miss Herrera is.
I find Carrick more vital to our results than Herrera. I also find Pogba more influential, which makes Herrera our 3rd most valued and in the squad I'd have his importance behind Zlatan, Mkhitaryan too.
He's a good player who has had some motb games and some invisible games. I won't buy into any additional hype when I've seen all his matches.
Dembele is absolutely crucial to your play mainly because of his dribbling from deep where he can just beat the press (as you said) and transition play very quickly from defense to attack. Herrera for us so important, especially in Carrick's absence, because he basically covers Pogba's ass who can shirk his defensive duties and allows him to concentrate on doing hi magic up the field.
Carrick is no longer the player he was a couple of seasons back. Any team which presses completely neutralizes him. Not sure how you can say he is more important than Herrera this season. Just shows me you are basing it on reputation rather than actual performances. As for Pogba, he plays a completely different role and obviously he is a far better creator than Herrera but Herrera is far better defensively than him. So yes, again not sure why you are comparing them. We don't have a midfielder who can do Herrera's role for us in our current set up. Fellaini is no where near good enough and Carrick really does not have the legs any more. BFS, like Carrick, does not have the legs to dictate play consistently for us. You are seriously underrating his importance to our play this season.
Ander is a Jose midfielder operating in a Jose system. If he is happy with what Herrera is doing then who are we to argue. I would imagine Jose has problems with the contribution of other players rather than this lad. He has had to play defensively more than he would probably like, but does not moan. It is the forward line and Pogba where more goals are needed, not the lad who is just working his socks off to make sure we get hold of the ball in the first place. I think if we make sure that defence is even more solid on both sides of the field it will make things a lot easier.
In which pressing games was Herrera performing better than Carrick? And no, I'm basing them on performance rather than reputation. The results with and without Carrick speaks volumes in itself.
The moment you called Herrera one of the most important in our team was the moment you opened up a comparison of his relative role to others in the team. Valencia, Zlatan, Carrick and Pogba (just because he's not been amazing in the last few) are more important to our results than Herrera is. I'd include Mkhitaryan but he hasn't played enough yet.
As I say, Herrera has done very well but he's not a great player. He's just good and we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves just yet.
I never once said Scholesy didn't help us build from the back what you making things up for? He was the ultimate playmaking quarterback.
Plus defensive nous and Herrera should not go in the same sentence.
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