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Nonsense. Those players bolded have been patchy and done their job sporadically. Ander has done his job consistently like a Kante and the defensive contributions back this up. Miki and Zlatan are our best player but Miki didn't get into the team soon enough. Pogba has played the most and has been largely hit and miss; shown flashes, but indifferent many games which seem to pass him by especially the key ones. Valencia and Ander are too of our most consistent imo
How else would you view those stats?
The number of passes isn't an indicator of quality of passing.
Too often he'll mess up the weight and angle of even the simple balls, which means the receiving player has to take an extra touch to control it before they make their next move.
I can't remember reading anything so painfully wrong on these forums. I would almost think your a WUM but the amount of replies of you've gotten indicates otherwise.
I think we would have missed Herrera more tbh. They bring very different things to the team but I think Herrera influences the game more.Pogba has contributed more than Herrera this season easily in my opinion. Ask yourself this Stack who would we have missed the most Pogba or Herrera?
Herrera has had periods of hot and cold also like Pogba but I can only assume because he's started most matches that you think he's consistent in his performance.
Apart from Valencia, none of the players have had as good a season as Herrera has. Valencia is the only player for whom you can present a decent case for being the better player, although I'd still argue that Herrera has possibly been our best player this season
What is that Weigl does so well that Herrera can't? I always see people saying him as Carrick replacement but whenever I watch Dortmund play I was never impressed with his play. He is good player and played good but not sure why he is rated so highly.
Defensively is he better than Herrera? Weigl - 1.3 tackles and 2.5 interceptions per game whereas Herrera wins 2.34 tackles and 3.5 interceptions per game.
Passing? Weigl completes 90% whereas Herrera completes 88%.
Movement so that he is available for pass? Weigl plays 77 passes per game whereas Herrera 79.6 passes per game.
More inventive passes? Weigl - 0.24 key passes and 0.24 chances created per game whereas Herrera 1.25 and 1.40 respectively.
Better in the air? Herrera wins 59% aerial duels compared to 52% by Weigl.
Maybe something that can't be measured in stats like closing down and work rate? I doubt it.
Not saying Weigl is bad player as he isn't, in fact very good player but what is that he does so much better than Herrera?
Similarly I checked the stats for Saul also, there isn't a stat where he is better than Herrera (the one's I mentioned above)
I know judging just by stats is not the say but I really doubt Weigl is any better than what we already have.
This. I can look at stats when I'm less familiar on the players in comparison, but by watching both players every week its clear that Dembele is a better midfielder than Herrera.
I think we would have missed Herrera more tbh. They bring very different things to the team but I think Herrera influences the game more.
It's not because you don't think he's special. It's because you think all Herrera brings to our team is the ability to close down and run a lot.You think I'm a wum because I don't regard Herrera as being as special as others might claim? Sometimes I think he's a Spanish Tom Cleverly that just shows a bit more passion. From a technical standpoint he's done nothing special. Honestly.
You think I'm a wum because I don't regard Herrera as being as special as others might claim? Sometimes I think he's a Spanish Tom Cleverly that just shows a bit more passion. From a technical standpoint he's done nothing special. Honestly.
Do you watch the players I've named? I don't expect many people to be avid watches of Ligue 1, Serie A, La Liga and the Bundasliga alongside the EPL, so it might be worth seeing some season highlights of my named players to see where I am coming from.
I honestly feel we are watching different players. We obviously view the game very differently so I think it might be best to leave it there.I really can't see this in any shape or form! Herrera influences games in what form? Not much in attack and not great in defending! Yes he's good at pressing and 5-10 yard passes has a wonderful trick on his first touch that buys him space, but his choice of passing is dreadful at times often refusing a dangerous ball for a 5 yard safety pass.
I think Herrera. He is leading the league in defensive contributions. Pogba isn't exactly Alli with the goals and has contributed less than Gylfi Sygurdsson, plus he is hardly a match dominating midfielder. I have no idea what his real position is. But he dabs and has cool haircuts so every single thing he does is blown out of proportion!Pogba has contributed more than Herrera this season easily in my opinion. Ask yourself this Stack who would we have missed the most Pogba or Herrera?
Herrera has had periods of hot and cold also like Pogba but I can only assume because he's started most matches that you think he's consistent in his performance.
It's not because you don't think he's special. It's because you think all Herrera brings to our team is the ability to close down and run a lot.
The first things that come to my head that makes Herrera much more than that:
Link up play is excellent
Uses his body brilliantly to open space, especially on reception of the ball
Almost always chooses the correct pass
Puts great weight on his passes which influences the overall pace of the attack
Occasionally plays nice penetrating balls, especially to Valencia on the overlap - in between the full back and LCB - perfect weight on the ball
Always looks to find space close the ball carrier for a pass
Contributes massively to our overall intensity in a positive way. Presses high yet keeping good shape
Great interceptor of the ball.
If you need proof of Herrera's technical ability, both vision and passing; check out his pass to Mhkitaryan for his goal against Spurs.
There is a chance that I am exaggerating slightly on some of my points but to say Herrera does nothing more than 'put himself about' is ridiculous and you are seriously underrating his contribution.I've highlighted my exact qualm about certain posters in this thread just from your post alone. The superlative words used to describe Herrera suggest he's some form of a Rakitic/Modric/Kroos level talent when he obviously is not. His link up play is good, not excellent. His Pass completion is less than say, Dembele so he doesn't "almost always choose the correct pass" and his chance creation is less than say, Henderson, so I wonder what your views on Henderson is if you're this loving of Herrera.
The rest of your posts are bare minimums of what you'd expect from a midfielder at our club, like "occasionally plays nice penetrating balls, eg to Valencia" - well obviously, but that doesn't make him "great".
As I say, he puts himself about a lot which makes his interceptions and tackles very good. The rest of your post is very OTT.
Stats can be played with. Dembele has a superior pass completion %, more successful take-ons, and has won 15% more duels.
FWIW I don't like using stats for that reason, they don't always tell the whole story.
There is a chance that I am exaggerating slightly on some of my points but to say Herrera does nothing more than 'put himself about' is ridiculous and you are seriously underrating his contribution.
Plus I've never once said Herrera is a great footballer. I think Naingollan, Saul and Koke are better and would be even more effective in our system than Herrera however that shouldn't take away from what Herrera brings to the table, on both the defensive and offensive end.
Ah apologies there.Shit. It was meant as a joke. As in, if you don't use your eyes, how would you read the stats posted. But I get that @Orc meant watching actual games.
I think Herrera. He is leading the league in defensive contributions. Pogba isn't exactly Alli with the goals and has contributed less than Gylfi Sygurdsson, plus he is hardly a match dominating midfielder. I have no idea what his real position is. But he dabs and has cool haircuts so every single thing he does is blown out of proportion!
No, but I'm saying we can't guarantee it. In the modern footballing world, where players flock to premier league riches, a foreigner who's as committed to the club and as grateful to play for it as Herrera is hard to come by. Lets say for example we upgraded on Herrera with Kante or Nainggolan (two players who are similar, but also both probably a fair bit better). Can we really expect they will have the same devotion to the club as Herrera has turned out to have? Possibly, but it's much more likely we'll have to put them on dispproportional wages just to bring them here, and they just turn out to be mercenaries who flee at the first sign of trouble, or a better offer. If that sounds cynical, think back to how many players we've bought over the last three seasons, and whether they've shown the same devotion and love for the club that Herrera has. For every one that has (Ibrahimovic, Mata, Rojo), there's one that hasn't (Falcao, Di Maria, Schneiderlin). Loyalty and committment is harder to come by in football than it ever has been before, and we should learn to stop looking gift horses in the mouth.Are you saying Herrera is the only box to box midfielder who would have a loyal attitude towards his club?
Thank you. Nice post.No, but I'm saying we can't guarantee it. In the modern footballing world, where players flock to premier league riches, a foreigner who's as committed to the club and as grateful to play for it as Herrera is hard to come by. Lets say for example we upgraded on Herrera with Kante or Nainggolan (two players who are similar, but also both probably a fair bit better). Can we really expect they will have the same devotion to the club as Herrera has turned out to have? Possibly, but it's much more likely we'll have to put them on dispproportional wages just to bring them here, and they just turn out to be mercenaries who flee at the first sign of trouble, or a better offer. If that sounds cynical, think back to how many players we've bought over the last three seasons, and whether they've shown the same devotion and love for the club that Herrera has. For every one that has (Ibrahimovic, Mata, Rojo), there's one that hasn't (Falcao, Di Maria, Schneiderlin). Loyalty and committment is harder to come by in football than it ever has been before, and we should learn to stop looking gift horses in the mouth.
ppl can doubt his ability but shouldn't forrget some of the attributes which are not seen like consistency - he never disappoints, something which Carrick who I never was a big fan myself, provided, so he's very dependable for a manager. Than something connected with this and that's just being very smart footballer - you can state that he runs around like a headless chicken at times but he knows very well what he does and always follows Mourinho's instructions. Ppl saying he plays too many easy passes etc. but he himself stated it that he does what his manager needs to do from him, he's a prototype of a team player who is not afraid to take one for the team.
We all know that he works hard which goes well along passion for the game on and off the pitch. That is also why he won't stagnate and can in my opinion get better than he is despite being 27 (wow he's old), he is still getting used to a new role, judging by his first season under a sane and sensible manager he adjusted very well already, so I think he will continue to master that, midfielders age later. We could all see how Scholes or Carrick changed their game over time..
he seems very nice lad so I think he must be a great player for the dressing room and a good friend for everyone..
he always shows up against big teams, that comes with a consistency sure but he's a big game player, neverdisappoints and usually shifts to another gear in derbies.. how many players like Carrick before or Pogba this season looked great and then failed on a big stage?
He also seems injury free. knockknock
All these attributes is attributes which made for example Darren Fletcher a key player in his peak years before the illness. Talent is not everything and you can't have a world class player everywhere. Just passion won Leicester league, look at Vardy, best goalscorer was he last season in the EPL or top3 for sure, just working hard and focused made them a great team and Herrera would walk into their side and very few would get into ours.
all that doesn't mean we shouldn't bring in a competition for him but you know it will be very hard to get a player with a mixture of ability and the attributes mentioned.. he's the player whom every top team should have.
No, Valencia ibra with 20 goals is a great return and been more important given his lack of support in attack.
Dave has made what? 2 errors?
Bailley has been great every game
Herrera has been good in spells and anonymous in others especially during our run of draws against smaller teams
Pogba, Zlatan, Valencia even Myktarin have all been better imo. What I would say about Herrera is he's been consistent alongside DDG Rojo (since he got in the team) and Valencia our standout player.
Behave for feck sake, Zlatan has been better he's on course for golden boot! He's going to hit 25-30 goals for us this season.
very interesting. we must have a pretty creative team then, to be fair. So one in 4 of his shots inside the box go in.You must be having a laugh if you think Pogba has been better than Herrera. Mkhi has been good but hasn't played that often so no point in comparing.
As far as Zlatan is concerned, I'd present you with some stats. We have created 305 chances this season (as per squawka), 3rd most in the league. Zlatan has taken 95 shots(most in the league) almost a third of our chances. 67 of these were from inside the box- 10 more than 2nd placed Benteke, 14 more than Costa. Of these 67, 11 were from inside the 6 yard box. And Zlatan has 15 league goals. Had he really been so good, he should have had more goals by this stage
How curious. So he has a great passing range, but isn't the dictator like Xabi, Pirlo or Scholes?Pogba's passing range is out this world. He can't control a game like a Scholes (few could to be fair) but he's more like a Gerrard without the box to box running power but superior skill (it's hard to compare as he is Pogba at the end of the day).
Bringing Sygurdsson and Alli into it who play complete different positions is just daft.
It's like comparing Herrera to Cleverley's time here.
You highlight 4 mistakes from de gea, telling me Herrera hasn't made 4 mistakes?I'm sorry but I disagree.
Lets start with Ibra. So you said about Ander that he has been 'anonymous; against weaker opposition. Zlatan went through a phase where he was contributing nothing to our play. 6-7 games or so. Surely Ander hasn't had as many bad games.
Dave hasn't been as influential as Herrera. There have been a couple of errors-Stoke, WHU in League cup from top of my mind, but then there has been communication gap as well with defence which did lead to us conceding a goal vs Chelsea (the Pedro goal). Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was even a goal vs Watford which was save-able.
Bailly has played far too few games to compare him with Herrera
How curious. So he has a great passing range, but isn't the dictator like Xabi, Pirlo or Scholes?
His passing is like Gerrard's(can pull off some magic at times but inconsistent), but doesn't drive the team forward?
When you mention he has superior skill, he doesn't exactly go on these mazy runs like Kaka/Iniesta/Ronaldinho that drive the team forward and into dangerous positions causing havoc.
let me guess, "he can strike from range but isn't quite a Gerrard"
Your description makes him seem incomplete and a master of none to be fair. Makes it sound like he isn't all that, if I was a neutral.
My point is that Pogba is here for, I assume, his attacking contributions as he often plays a 10 and we play 2 midfielders to accommodate him defensively, (Carrick, Herrera) to free him up. I mentioned Gylfi as Paul's attacking contributions don't quite justify the freedom he is afforded at present.
I agree with all of that, the xavis and scholes we're magnificent and it's harsh to compare anyone to them.Xabi Pirlo and Scholes had one thing over others and that was their ability to run games through their passing (when to play short and when to play long, when to switch play, when to quicken play and when to slow the tempo down). That is a complete different skill than being a great passer like Becks or Veron or Gerrard.
Paul has not got this (it might come) as he has the skill set in passing range to achieve this but it is an unique skill but in reality it relies more on game intelligence.
I think Pogba is brilliant he's our Yaya or our Gerrard (comes up with sensational moments but can be anonymous then boom) but he needs a midfield around him to bring out the best in him. Carricks great as he's been his legs have gone and for me Herrera is no more than a decent player who eventually we will replace with someone of more quality. Just my opinion nothing more.
Herrera is statistically a better all round midfielder than Pogba, Kante, Dembele, and any central midfielder you can name in the PL. Saying he doesn't "look" a better player is one of the stupidest arguments. There is a reason the whole world is using data and statistics to improve performance. Who cares if he doesn't look like a good player? All that matters is that he is performing, which the stats for interceptions, blocks, clearances, tackles won, assists, passing percentage, and chances created show. You can knock him for not scoring goals, but besides that he's been great at defending, passing, and creating chances. Everything you'd want from your DM and B2B hybrid midfielder.
Actually 3 of his goals were from outside the box, 1 was a penalty. You take these factors into consideration and he has scored 1 in 6 from inside the box, which isn't that good IMOvery interesting. we must have a pretty creative team then, to be fair. So one in 4 of his shots inside the box go in.
No, but I'm saying we can't guarantee it. In the modern footballing world, where players flock to premier league riches, a foreigner who's as committed to the club and as grateful to play for it as Herrera is hard to come by. Lets say for example we upgraded on Herrera with Kante or Nainggolan (two players who are similar, but also both probably a fair bit better). Can we really expect they will have the same devotion to the club as Herrera has turned out to have? Possibly, but it's much more likely we'll have to put them on dispproportional wages just to bring them here, and they just turn out to be mercenaries who flee at the first sign of trouble, or a better offer. If that sounds cynical, think back to how many players we've bought over the last three seasons, and whether they've shown the same devotion and love for the club that Herrera has. For every one that has (Ibrahimovic, Mata, Rojo), there's one that hasn't (Falcao, Di Maria, Schneiderlin). Loyalty and committment is harder to come by in football than it ever has been before, and we should learn to stop looking gift horses in the mouth.
I'd be careful with statsHerrera is statistically a better all round midfielder than Pogba, Kante, Dembele, and any central midfielder you can name in the PL. Saying he doesn't "look" a better player is one of the stupidest arguments. There is a reason the whole world is using data and statistics to improve performance. Who cares if he doesn't look like a good player? All that matters is that he is performing, which the stats for interceptions, blocks, clearances, tackles won, assists, passing percentage, and chances created show. You can knock him for not scoring goals, but besides that he's been great at defending, passing, and creating chances. Everything you'd want from your DM and B2B hybrid midfielder.
