[#07]

Yes, his passing and shooting both leave a lot to be desired. He seemed to have a good shot on him during his first season here but I can't see any signs of that now. But passing is where he really needs to improve. He can make the rare assist now and then but overall he is too sloppy and the weight of his passes are also way off the mark. The good thing about him is he still keeps trying to play vertical passes instead of taking the easy way out by passing sideways like Fellaini. His energy and defensive work rate is what makes him a good player for us.

I don't think Andreas can match Herrera's work rate. I can't see him as that kind of player. He is a way better passer and dribbler but more suited higher up the pitch. A player like Vidal and Bakayoko is better suited to Herrera's role.

Ander completed more passes than anyone else on the pitch yesterday. I don't believe passing is something he has major struggles with.



As long as he's racking up these numbers to go with his passing, I think we can all accept Ander being a starting XI player for us.

 

[Rozay]

Yes, his passing and shooting both leave a lot to be desired. He seemed to have a good shot on him during his first season here but I can't see any signs of that now. But passing is where he really needs to improve. He can make the rare assist now and then but overall he is too sloppy and the weight of his passes are also way off the mark. The good thing about him is he still keeps trying to play vertical passes instead of taking the easy way out by passing sideways like Fellaini. His energy and defensive work rate is what makes him a good player for us.

I don't think Andreas can match Herrera's work rate. I can't see him as that kind of player. He is a way better passer and dribbler but more suited higher up the pitch. A player like Vidal and Bakayoko is better suited to Herrera's role.

I agree that Andreas doesn't play with the same intensity, but he's no pushover either. He's also still developing. I'd like to see if he can develop that part of his game.

 

[Devil may care]

Midfielders have to cover distance. It's not a road race but that doesn't mean it's a walking game either. Barry is poor no matter how you put it, especially the current one who is slower than loaded truck.

Also player positions are not static, they don't stick in their position all the time. Herrera was deeper player most of the times and when he goes forward Pogba should be covering his position. That's how every midfield combination works.

Not it's not how every midfield combination works and never has been, when you have a CM in the pairing that is very much an attacking player like Pogba you pair him with a proper holding player who doesn't bomb off all the time leaving a player with no defensive nous like Pogba stuck as the deepest player, this is not a double pivot situation with 2 full blooded CM's like the Robson/Ince combo was for us.

You are ridiculous if you think half of those would be better fit than Herrera in two man midfield just because they are natural defensive midfielders.

I'm not ridiculous, they'd all be better as they'd all stay deeper and offer the safety net a team needs when playing with a midfield 2 and one of the 2 is essentially an AM. I don't get how this is even a debate, it's not about whether they are better players than Ander, it's about them having a skill set that is a better compliment to Pogba in a midfield 2, just look at yesterday and against Hull, yesterday Pogba was the deeper of the 2 most of the time because Herrera is always off hunting the ball, now that is ridiculous, and against Hull the moment we took Carrick off we coughed up two chances due to a huge space in midfield where one of our 2 CM's was supposed to be, as neither have them positonal sense required for the responsibility.

 

[Amar__]

I'm not ridiculous, they'd all be better as they'd all stay deeper and offer the safety net a team needs when playing with a midfield 2 and one of the 2 is essentially an AM. I don't get how this is even a debate, it's not about whether they are better players than Ander, it's about them having a skill set that is a better compliment to Pogba in a midfield 2, just look at yesterday and against Hull, yesterday Pogba was the deeper of the 2 most of the time because Herrera is always off hunting the ball, now that is ridiculous, and against Hull the moment we took Carrick off we coughed up two chances due to a huge space in midfield where one of our 2 CM's was supposed to be, as neither have them positonal sense required for the responsibility.

So why don't we play Carrick in every game instead of Ander then?

 

[Devil may care]

midfield two often works as aunit of two midfielders doing the same thing, Herrera may not be the best holder but his positioning at winning balls is exellent so not sure what are you trying to say here, it's Pogba who needs to get better to be able to play in midfield two certainly not Herrera, let alone that Mourinho is certainly counting with some of the deficiances this midfield can bring and playing the third midfielder in front of them who also works hard, that's why Mhkytaryan will be used there more than Mata or Rooney as their movement is simply not good enough for Mourinho no10/third attacking midfielder. Herrera is also a new to the role and over last year he couldn't adjust more, Pogba is still trying to find his feet.

I am sure Ander can only get better there over time as he's very intelligent, he will need good partners there though, Pogba is given as he has immense potential but it will take time to settle but it's him who struggles to fulfill the instructions or be as effective as Herrera..

A Midfield 2 can work as a unit but not when one of them is Paul Pogba, when he's paired with Ander he's going to end up deep more times than not and that is not only a complete waste of his talent but also a liability as he's not great defensively, that's why he needs a dedicated holder with him, same as Herrera needs one as well as he spends most of the game ahead of whoever he's with, hunting the ball.

 

[Devil may care]

So why don't we play Carrick in every game instead of Ander then?

Becasue he's 35 and clearly can't play every game, plus his legs have gone as far as playing in a 2 goes, we saw that he struggled in the double pivot last season but when LvG reverted to the 3 man midifeld in the latter part of the season he excelled, just as he'd excelled the season before in the 3 man midfield.

 

[Devil may care]

I am almost always positive about Herrera and I knew saying anything negative in the Herrera thread was gonna get me piled on, I've seen @Lawman get it in here, but to be clear I think we should stay with a 3 man midfield and find a holding player that fits with Pogba and Herrera. I'm not knocking Ander or Pogba, I simply don't think their game's are suited to playing together in a 2, we might get away with it against the dross teams but it's not a foundation to build a consistently winning side on IMO.

 

[Amar__]

Becasue he's 35 and clearly can't play every game, plus his legs have gone as far as playing in a 2 goes, we saw that he struggled in the double pivot last season but when LvG reverted to the 3 man midifeld in the latter part of the season he excelled, just as he'd excelled the season before in the 3 man midfield.

But Xabi and Barry are top class who would play here ahead of him. OK.

 

[Philadelphian]

Imagine if our scouts judged every player on stats alone, like some here are doing with Herrera. We'd miss out on higher quality or better formational fits all the time. As has always been the case, stats don't show the full picture. Stats guy keeps doing his thing though.

 

[Devil may care]

But Xabi and Barry are top class who would play here ahead of him. OK.

You said there had only been 2 top class holding players over the last decade,so I listed players from over the last decade to show how many there have been over the period of time you selected. Obviously Barry and Xabi are at the same age as Carrick and couldn't fit with Pogba now, come on.

 

[Lawman]

I am almost always positive about Herrera and I knew saying anything negative in the Herrera thread was gonna get me piled on, I've seen @Lawman get it in here, but to be clear I think we should stay with a 3 man midfield and find a holding player that fits with Pogba and Herrera. I'm not knocking Ander or Pogba, I simply don't think their game's are suited to playing together in a 2, we might get away with it against the dross teams but it's not a foundation to build a consistently winning side on IMO.

I watched Herrera but I think he lacks quite a bit in his game. (Good Player no doubt) but for me he lacks the qualities to play as the 6. His choice of passing at times is poor for a playmaker (that's not to say he doesn't keep the ball). He often favours going right when playing as the 6 nullifying our left side.
As an 8 he does well and gets plenty interceptions. But he is the kind of player that you wouldn't worry about playing against as he would not hurt you in attack nor is he a beast defensively. (Now taking shelter thanks @Devil may care)

 

[roonster09]

Imagine if our scouts judged every player on stats alone, like some here are doing with Herrera. We'd miss out on higher quality or better formational fits all the time. As has always been the case, stats don't show the full picture. Stats guy keeps doing his thing though.

Clubs use stats more than an average internet user does but those kind of stats are much more detailed and gives better results. It's not even new, it's done from more than 15 years and one of the reason why Stam was sold (along with issues with his book).

 

[Devil may care]

I watched Herrera but I think he lacks quite a bit in his game. (Good Player no doubt) but for me he lacks the qualities to play as the 6. His choice of passing at times is poor for a playmaker (that's not to say he doesn't keep the ball). He often favours going right when playing as the 6 nullifying our left side.
As an 8 he does well and gets plenty interceptions. But he is the kind of player that you wouldn't worry about playing against as he would not hurt you in attack nor is he a beast defensively. (Now taking shelter thanks @Devil may care)

Sorry man, you just came to mind when I saw all the alerts going at me over my comments on Herrera. Like I say I think he's a good player and a great fit in a proper 3 man midifield, he does the dirty work and allows Carrick to playmake and Pogba to have freedom to attack, that's a great balance. The problem is our holding player is too old to play every game and we have no cover for him.

 

[lawliet354]

A Midfield 2 can work as a unit but not when one of them is Paul Pogba, when he's paired with Ander he's going to end up deep more times than not and that is not only a complete waste of his talent but also a liability as he's not great defensively, that's why he needs a dedicated holder with him, same as Herrera needs one as well as he spends most of the game ahead of whoever he's with, hunting the ball.

But when you play 4-2-3-1 Pogba does not need to play higher on the pitch, what's the point of the number 10 then?? Yesterday Mikhi play no.10 and he run the show, and Pogba and Herrera just keep it simple in the middle of the park

It is stupid to play 4-2-3-1 and you still expect Pogba to play higher and Herrera just to sit, when you play 2 in midfield with Pogba being one of them, rather than player like Carrick or Busqets you need more mobile player like Herrera or Kante

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Sorry man, you just came to mind when I saw all the alerts going at me over my comments on Herrera. Like I say I think he's a good player and a great fit in a proper 3 man midifield, he does the dirty work and allows Carrick to playmake and Pogba to have freedom to attack, that's a great balance. The problem is our holding player is too old to play every game and we have no cover for him.

That is the thing we can all agree on and needs addressing if we are going to use one in future. I think there are games where it is definitely needed. Leicester are not great, but against a really good side we need bodies in there or we will be seriously overrun. Now it depends how often Jose wants to do that and if he thinks it is worth spending top dollar (if he is going to be a regular fixture in the side) or not if he is going to be a bit part player. Only Jose knows which direction he wants to go. Think it will depend on the opposition we can cope with the two we have against some, as long as they both cover for each other. Which is why Carrick and Herrera go well together, because Carrick knows Herrera will help him out. Pogba has to learn to play as a team and do his share of the work.

 

[Devil may care]

But when you play 4-2-3-1 Pogba does not need to play higher on the pitch, what's the point of the number 10 then?? Yesterday Mikhi play no.10 and he run the show, and Pogba and Herrera just keep it simple in the middle of the park

It is stupid to play 4-2-3-1 and you still expect Pogba to play higher and Herrera just to sit, when you play 2 in midfield with Pogba being one of them, rather than player like Carrick or Busqets you need more mobile player like Herrera or Kante

No you don't, that's wjhy Pogba is basically a shadow for France right now, he's paired with Matuidi who has no positional discipline and hustles all the time leaving Pogba wasted deep. When you have Pogba in there you need a positionally astute player to sit behind him and take on the responsinility of protecting the back 4, and using Pogba as we did yesterday we might as well hgave saved £50M and just bought a regular CM, we paid a woirld record for a unique game changing CM, not for a run of the mill #8 who can hit a couple of nice long passes and keep it simple.

That is the thing we can all agree on and needs addressing if we are going to use one in future. I think there are games where it is definitely needed. Leicester are not great, but against a really good side we need bodies in there or we will be seriously overrun. Now it depends how often Jose wants to do that and if he thinks it is worth spending top dollar (if he is going to be a regular fixture in the side) or not if he is going to be a bit part player. Only Jose knows which direction he wants to go. Think it will depend on the opposition we can cope with the two we have against some, as long as they both cover for each other. Which is why Carrick and Herrera go well together, because Carrick knows Herrera will help him out. Pogba has to learn to play as a team and do his share of the work.

That's the thing though, paying £89M for Pogba and then trying to change what made him a top player to start with is like marrying soimeone and then expecting them to change their personality, when you commit as we did you do so completely. Pogba is unique, playing him in some kind of pivot is mostly pointless, like driving a Ferrari at 50mph, and Herrera's game isn't going to flourish with Pogba either, his greatest asset his hunting the ball and pressing the opposition, he can't do that effectively if he's paired with Pogba as he's always going to need to be aware that Pogba isn't good defensively and a huge gap can be left in midfield, meaning he has to play with restraint. Basically this seems to have turned into the idea that I don't rate Ander, yet if you look through this thread it's clear that is far from the truth, I just don't think they are compatible as a 2 and putting him and Pogba as a 2 neuter's both their games and isn't a long term solution, the holder we get to replace Carrick is the key to getting the best from both Pogba and Ander IMO.

 

[lawliet354]

No you don't, that's wjhy Pogba is basically a shadow for France right now, he's paired with Matuidi who has no positional discipline and hustles all the time leaving Pogba wasted deep. When you have Pogba in there you need a positionally astute player to sit behind him and take on the responsinility of protecting the back 4, and using Pogba as we did yesterday we might as well hgave saved £50M and just bought a regular CM, we paid a woirld record for a unique game changing CM, not for a run of the mill #8 who can hit a couple of nice long passes and keep it simple.

Herrera and Matuidi are completely different type of player, Matuidi likes to bomb forward much more than Herrera, Herrera this season has been improved a lot defensively, and Pogba is not wasted deep, in fact I think it'll help him mature as a midfielder, if he improve his defensive capabilities he would have been even better

Sure because yesterday we played completely shit, no idea what you are complaining about when yesterday's game probably the easiest win we got all season, most of the complaint of Pogba is about him trying to do flashy stuff, yet yesterday when he play it simple another complain about how he need to change the game

 

[Devil may care]

Herrera and Matuidi are completely different type of player, Matuidi likes to bomb forward much more than Herrera, Herrera this season has been improved a lot defensively, and Pogba is not wasted deep, in fact I think it'll help him mature as a midfielder, if he improve his defensive capabilities he would have been even better

Sure because yesterday we played completely shit, no idea what you are complaining about when yesterday's game probably the easiest win we got all season, most of the complaint of Pogba is about him trying to do flashy stuff, yet yesterday when he play it simple another complain about how he need to change the game

They aren't completely different, Matuidi is more dynamic in attack but their basic games are the ame, hunt the ball down and win it back, playing ahead of the deeper midfielder who sweeps up behind them because positionally they aren't great. Pogba isn't helped by sitting deep, he's an attacking player who has created more chances for us this season than any other player, saddling him with defensive responsibilities that are doubled when playing without a proper holder is a complete waste.

We played against a toxicly shite side yesterday that were as bad as the Swansea team we played, even against Hull we saw how wide open we are with Herrera and Pogba in a 2, they could have won that game in the second half due to the lack of protection that pairing offers the defense. As far as people complaining about Pogba trying too much flashy stuff, some here do, I was never one of those, same as I never complained about a young Ronaldo trying things, that's what I expect of young flair players.

 

[anant]

Imagine if our scouts judged every player on stats alone, like some here are doing with Herrera. We'd miss out on higher quality or better formational fits all the time. As has always been the case, stats don't show the full picture. Stats guy keeps doing his thing though.

I feel that stats are actually one of the best ways to judge players playing in 'less glamorous positions' . I mean, these guys never get the recognition in game, and it's only when one has seen the stats that we truly acknowledge their contribution. I mean, just look at past few seasons- Carrick in Fergie's last season, Matic in Chelsea's title winning season, Kante last year- their contributions were overshadowed at the beginning by RVP, Hazard/costa and Mahrez/Vardy. But, it was after these stats came out that people started to take notice

 

[Amar__]

It's true that Herrera isn't consistent with showing his range of passing in every game but I like how everyone who criticise his passing tends to ignore his at least one or two key passes per game that opens up the space and create clear goalscoring chance, even though it happens regulary in almost every game.

 

[Cassidy]

It's true that Herrera isn't consistent with showing his range of passing in every game but I like how everyone who criticise his passing tends to ignore his at least one or two key passes per game that opens up the space and create clear goalscoring chance, even though it happens regulary in almost every game.

Indeed

 

[Grunge]

I am guessing part of this is aimed at me, I know exactly what Herrera's role is, it's the same one Kante has at Chelsea, but look how that works in tandem with Matic, you can't do that with Pogba. So it's like this, if Jose keeps with the 4-3-3 then yes, Herrera will be his workhorse CM in the trio, but if he moves to a 2 Pogba will need a partner that can do the job of protecting the back 4, no team plays without one of those, not even Barcelona.

I only "aim" under pressure "DMC"
Several posters were discussing the merits of senor Herrera including yourself most with valid arguments. that said, I think you're right about the overall strength of Herrera; but it will depend on how Mourinho ultimately wants to build United over the coming years & what he believes is the best system.

I believe Jose honestly wants to be the boss here for as long as possible ... not as long perhaps as SAF, but I think he wants to emulate the best we've ever been and that means ongoing improvement & several championships. Does that mean a two-man midfield built around Pogs or does he like his chances with a formidable three-man midfield & the speedy wingers of old? I'm not sure but his desire to have United play attractive football suggests United will not look like some of his other teams?

Right now he's playing a system that you must conseed, does create a lot of chances. He's built that system (or systems) around players that he inherited and a few he's personally brought in, meaning he's working a system around the players he's got, rather than the other way round. In his mind that system, including Herra, has us on unbeaten in going on 20 games in all competitions (We did beat Hull remember ) so he can't be too disappointed can he? Better finishing and we'd be firmly in 2nd place and there'd be a lot less whinging on the caf! (maybe)

Is his plan to operate in a (new) system that requires 3 to 5 new/better players, next year? Probably! What will that "system" be? Fecked if I know!

But I have no reason not to trust the manager at this point, regardless of how he's been perceived to have "treated" some players on staff, presumably to get the most out of them.

 

[Gerald G]

I love the guy but our fans overrate him a little, I'll be honest.

 

[Dante]

Within a very specific role, Herrera's just about as good as they come. I'm just beginning to believe that role doesn't exist in our team given the various attributes of our forwards, and the fact we've found goal scoring such a huge problem. In fairness, I think Zlatan and Pogba are equally culpable for the lack of cohesion in our attacking play, but the latter two are pretty much undroppable.

 

[3KDré]

The very least of our problems currently. I would like to improve on him eventually but right now he is rightfully one of Mourinho's first 3 names on the teamsheet.

 

[Cassidy]

The very least of our problems currently. I would like to improve on him eventually but right now he is rightfully one of Mourinho's first 3 names on the teamsheet.

This

 

[BennyBlanco]

Does anyone else groan when he lines up for a shot? I love him and all but his shooting has been pants this year, I swear he used to be a goal threat arriving late when he first got here?

 

[fatboy]

He's actually good in a deeper defensive role. Passing range not the same as Carrick's but has a much better work rate, and recycles the ball very effectively. If we can put 2 midfielders slightly in front of him to do the creating and scoring (Pogba + 1), that should work pretty well.

 

[Striker10]

i think Pogba has taken on the offensive responsibility and the change in position has probably meant that Herrera will get less goals. Other qualities will come out - he's very good on his day. We just have to accept that the midfield is really based on creative ideas and that the play will mostly come from Pogba. Herrera won't be bombing forward all the time but he does so much more donkey work now that perhaps he's more tired when lining up to shoot. His position is deeper now - it's to be expected. He might start chipping in goals again but we shouldn't really expect it

 

[Loublaze]

Does anyone else groan when he lines up for a shot? I love him and all but his shooting has been pants this year, I swear he used to be a goal threat arriving late when he first got here?

He's not applying what Van Gaal taught him anymore

The Dutchman explained he had been imploring the Spanish midfielder to control the ball before shooting in order to demonstrate a greater level of composure

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...d-goal-against-Aston-Villa.html#ixzz4Xy1sQzjU

 

[Jazz]

He's not applying what Van Gaal taught him anymore

The Dutchman explained he had been imploring the Spanish midfielder to control the ball before shooting in order to demonstrate a greater level of composure

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...d-goal-against-Aston-Villa.html#ixzz4Xy1sQzjU

I know the fans and the press were outraged and/or made fun of LVG when he said this - but he was right. In fact, someone like Rashers may want to try this method initially until he gets his confidence back in front of goal.
Seems like LVG, in his own inimitable way, was aware how 'jittery' the team can be, and this was one way of helping them to stay composed in front of goal.

Certainly Ander should try this, cause his shooting is wild and all over the place.

 

[Womp]

I wouldn't be surprised if those shots were some sort of tactic by Jose. A lot of the times Herrera takes those shots he is higher up on the pitch so there isn't much support for the defence as he's stationed in and around the box. By smashing it either stops any potential counter attacks and on the rare occasion it could result in a goal.

How do I know this? No fecking idea, just an assumption as a lot of the times he smashes those shots it's when the ball is there to be won.

 

[RedPnutz]

I know the fans and the press were outraged and/or made fun of LVG when he said this - but he was right. In fact, someone like Rashers may want to try this method initially until he gets his confidence back in front of goal.
Seems like LVG, in his own inimitable way, was aware how 'jittery' the team can be, and this was one way of helping them to stay composed in front of goal.

Certainly Ander should try this, cause his shooting is wild and all over the place.

SOme fans don't seem to realise that managers like LVg and Mourinho do have slots of positives that made them serial winners, instead of doing everything out of whim.

 

[Footyislife]

He's arguably the most complete two way midfielder in the PL, who's clearly been instructed not to make forward runs. Runs in the past which got him more assists and goals. Now his role on the team is to cover the open spaces that Pogba leaves when he's lazy to defend, win the ball back, and initiate counter attacks with quick passes. Which he does very well having the most interceptions and getting off a couple key passes every game.

The one clear negative Herrera currently has is his out of control long range volleys. He might as well kick it out of bounds. I'd like him to instead use his first touch and dribbling skills to create space and get off either a pass or more controlled shot in those situations. But I know he misses scoring goals and if he loses a ball that could spell trouble for us on the counter. So at the end of the day it's not the end of the world for him to take some crazy shots.

 

[Lawman]

He's actually good in a deeper defensive role. Passing range not the same as Carrick's but has a much better work rate, and recycles the ball very effectively. If we can put 2 midfielders slightly in front of him to do the creating and scoring (Pogba + 1), that should work pretty well.

Have you not watched him in this role? He is exceptionally ordinary as a 6 and his footballing brain is just not up to this position imo. He is good enough as an 8 in a three just now but we need better long term as he's not good enough defensively or in attack he's a nice player that doesn't hurt teams.

 

[Jib]

The very least of our problems currently. I would like to improve on him eventually but right now he is rightfully one of Mourinho's first 3 names on the teamsheet.

He isn't even in the first 5 names : Pogba, De Gea, Ibra, Valencia and Bailly when he's fit

 

[fatboy]

Have you not watched him in this role? He is exceptionally ordinary as a 6 and his footballing brain is just not up to this position imo. He is good enough as an 8 in a three just now but we need better long term as he's not good enough defensively or in attack he's a nice player that doesn't hurt teams.

I've seen a couple of pretty good games from him in that position, even though he hasn't played there all that often. The Liverpool match away comes to mind. Not all defensive midfielders need that exceptional footballing brain. And he's still fairly new to the position, so he can get better too.

 

[DeOddi]

Have you not watched him in this role? He is exceptionally ordinary as a 6 and his footballing brain is just not up to this position imo. He is good enough as an 8 in a three just now but we need better long term as he's not good enough defensively or in attack he's a nice player that doesn't hurt teams.

Also doesn´t help that he has that annoying habit of gifting the opponent the ball with a horrible pass in dangerous positions for us. He´s very lucky not to have been punished for it yet.

He´s much better a bit further forward when he can harass opponents with his tireless running and pressing.

 

[balaks]

He is the sort of player that fans like to have in their team but he wouldn't look out of place in a mid-level Premiership team imo.

 

[JeffBoomTetris]

He is the sort of player that fans like to have in their team but he wouldn't look out of place in a mid-level Premiership team imo.

Of course. You need that type of player whether you are Bayern Munich or Accrington Stanley. Regardless of the type of football you play, your team needs grafters like Herrera. On the other hand, more individual sort of players like Mata or Mkhi will tend to struggle in mid level Premier League teams.