Amorim: «We are maybe the worst team in Man United history»

Florida Man said:
Human psychology applies but players at this level are on a different wavelength of competitiveness than most of the world, which is why I wrote what I did. As the saying goes, some are just built different. Clearly some at the club can’t handle this level hence why most of us here want them gone.
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Sorry, that's still just you insisting that the world works in a way that doesn't inconveniently get in the way of what you want to think mate.
 
gaffs said:
Agree on the wing backs. We don't have ideal fits, it would seem. But you have to trust Amorim in the sense that this is his system so fair to say he knows it better than anyone.

The profile he has in Dalot and Maz are far crys to what he had at Sporting in Arujo and Quenda. So what does that tell you? It imply that he thinks for now, Dalot and Maz are the best options he has. Personally, i think that is because he cant trust the 3 at the back because of the lack of recovery pace they have. Plus, he may think that on the balance having two full back there for now, is better than putting in a winger.

Lets face it, our defence are porous when they are lined up with 5 across the back. You can perhaps put some of our lack of attacking threat down to the wing backs, but is this the reason we ship so many goals? Look at the 3 goals yesterday - are any system related? Maz is in his right back slot twice and gets beaten.

I agree with you that the CBs need to be a little deeper when on the ball to start the attack. That allows the WBs to push up higher. Though when not on the ball, the CBs should be on the half way line - that is where the lack of recovery pace is an issue. We saw it yesterday - they are terrified when running back towards their own goal.

Mainoo isnt a DM, but he is playing along side one in Ugarte. Amorim had two DMs in Hjumland and Morita at Sporting. Mainoo should be able to get on the ball more look to link up play between defence and attack from that position and he just isnt doing that this season. Remember his debut V Everton when he was doing just that? Where is that Mainoo gone?

Attack - need we say more. Thought experiment here. Would Hojlund or Zirkzee be starting for any other PL team? Ipswich? No. LCFC? Think i would rather have Vardy. Palace? Mateta anyday. Even Southamptons forwards looked better.

Amorims teams rely heavily on a focal forward. We know what Gyökeres brings but even Paulinia before him was able to hold up play really well and bring the 10s into the game. Our options cant do that.



Agree on Chelsea, especially the wing backs. They had ideal players for the roles and Amorim doesnt now.

No disrespect, but whenever I see these linups on the Caf, it is a real turn off. With all the best will in the word, you could have these players lined up in any way but the way that individuals are performing now, I dont think it really matters.

As i said earlier, Amorim knows the system. If he thought Garnacho would be a net benefit at RWB, then he would have done it. Perhaps he doesnt trust Martinez to be not covered in that LCB slot. Or he feels that Garnacho will push too far forward and not give the CBs room to find the forward. There is a good explainer here why having the WBs too high causes issues in this system.

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I think you are right re why he is setting up with the 5 defenders but I think it's fair to say, though it is logical to play FBs as WBs in order to help the 3 CBs, it hasn't worked. I think it's overly negative and - when you think about it - the WBs are rarely line/in a position to support the CBs unless we're out of possession for a prolonged period so I'd argue it's not worth it, with the caveat of it being a good idea when we play the best teams.

1st goal I would 100% put on the system, if you have a high line but no press from your forwards you invite that ball constantly. Any team with fast wide men will love the idea of getting into that situation. If you watch the replay, the thing that really kills us is actually De Ligt. He comes out of the line, under instruction I assume although I can't really see why, and it is that which creates the chasm between where Maz is and Maguire. Any professional player with time could put the ball into Mitoma's path when the CB steps out, it's not like we got undone by some magician like ball from Pirlo.

2nd goal is an error in the midfield, you can see the confusion from Yoro in what he's meant to do stepping out. I don't think it's really a defensive error when you watch the whole thing, they get fecked over. It is a really good ball in as well.

Mainoo I think can have decent games there, I just think it's a waste of his skillset. He can fill in there, and he is doing that well enough, but I just think it's almost worth just playing Collyer for the mobility/fitness even if Mainoo is twice the player. I think you either want 2 high energy DMs in there, like 2 Ugarte's, or much more of a possession orientated pair like Jorginho (who was slow as treacle) and Kovacic who was great at bringing the ball forwards. That's why Bruno/Ugarte is the bandaid solution that makes the most sense to me.

I get we are all armchair fans but you seem to be going a bit too much down the 'Manager knows what he's doing' route. The more football you watch, the more you should see that these guys regularly make weird decisions that turn out to be errors. That doesn't mean us randomers know more about football than him or are tactical geniuses and many things we say are ridiculous, but he played a CM pair of Case/Eriksen against Newcastle with Zirkzee/Bruno in front which I consider one of the worst possible instances of judging an opposition/your own players. Almost as bad as when Ole hammered RBL but then, only needing a point to go through the CL group, inexplicably changed to a back 5 to be safe in the second game and we lost. Amorim is experimenting a fair bit, that is good, but it is a fact that his job is to find a way for us to create and score goals and that isn't happening right now to the level required. He has to tweak something and if playing Garnacho makes us weaker defensively but offers more in attack, he might have to risk it.
 
We see this many times with managers who are at big clubs. Klopp when Liverpool went off the rails and suddenly losing every game. Pep recently and Ange the same. In their post match interviews after their 6th defeat in a row, for example, getting the same questions repeatedly thrown at them. They become more and more incoherent and look more vulnerable the longer it goes on. Watching Pep post match was becoming a pain.
When Ruben said Utd were probably going through the worst period in their history, he said it to throw the journos off guard. The motto is when put under press do the unexpected. He even said he was giving them some headlines to work with.
A way of showing he's still got control!
 
simplyared said:
We see this many times with managers who are at big clubs. Klopp when Liverpool went off the rails and suddenly losing every game. Pep recently and Ange the same. In their post match interviews after their 6th defeat in a row, for example, getting the same questions repeatedly thrown at them. They become more and more incoherent and look more vulnerable the longer it goes on. Watching Pep post match was becoming a pain.
When Ruben said Utd were probably going through the worst period in their history, he said it to throw the journos off guard. The motto is when put under press do the unexpected. He even said he was giving them some headlines to work with.
A way of showing he's still got control!
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He never said we'd go through our worst period. He said there would be some hurt, which was a massive understatement.
 
simplyared said:
His exact words:
"We are being the worst team maybe in the history of Manchester United"
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That's not at all what you said he said in your post. That's what he said in the presser on Sunday. You looked like you were referring to when he first joined and said there would be hurt.
 
justsomebloke said:
Sorry, that's still just you insisting that the world works in a way that doesn't inconveniently get in the way of what you want to think mate.
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Kind of like how you insisting that my initial post was meant in a way that doesn’t inconveniently get in the way of what you want to think? Have you considered that you’re responding to an invented argument you felt in your head instead of comprehending basic English like the other posters who responded to me have done? It’s not that deep.
 
simplyared said:
His exact words:
"We are being the worst team maybe in the history of Manchester United"
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Just on that statement. Watched a clip with Glen Hoddle who said something I found interesting.

Basically Hoddle said Amorim looked to be reading that from a pre written piece. Does appear that way.

The following discussion was about how this was the most home games ina row we have lost since 18 something.

Didn't know that, haven't checked yet. If true then the statement isn't far wrong and if pre written then maybe the club were aware or even wrote it?
 
I like Amorim, but does no-one else feel it's a massive risk backing him fully with his 3-4-2-1 system? If we do eventually back him and buy him players to suit his system that is. If it hasn't worked out in another 2-3 years time then we're stuck with players built for his system meaning another massive rebuild for the next manager. It just seems short-sighted to me.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
The vision can’t be implanted with most of this lot. We will need a major overhaul as we have done under previous managers and they have to get the signings right. No amount of selling of the vision to players with the wrong mentality and qualities is going to achieve success. I mean I’m sure he tried behind the scenes but it’s clear how defeated some of then are.
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Of course. But he still needs to work with this sorry bunch of players. So while I think he's right in his assessment of the squad and think there is some value in this message, I doubt he will be able to built something, without providing a vision. This vision is needed because he needs it to get the few players on board he can work with. They need to buy into his ideas in order for him to implement them, in order to establish even the smallest foundation. You're squad, bad as it might be, is not completely devoid of talent. So he needs to convince those who are worthy of his ideas. And on top of that, he needs a vision to sell to players you are trying to attract. The times of throwing money at guys who don't want to be at United must be over. You need to lure players to the club who want to be part of something big. Who can be convinced by more than money. That doesn't work, however, if that vision isn't there or visible.
So this statement can be a good start for a cultural revamp of the club. But he must built on it with something positive. Otherwise he will fail.
 
Roane said:
Just on that statement. Watched a clip with Glen Hoddle who said something I found interesting.

Basically Hoddle said Amorim looked to be reading that from a pre written piece. Does appear that way.

The following discussion was about how this was the most home games ina row we have lost since 18 something.

Didn't know that, haven't checked yet. If true then the statement isn't far wrong and if pre written then maybe the club were aware or even wrote it?
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Your last paragraph could well be true. It's a bold statement to make for a foreign manager who's not yet 40 and been at the club such a short time. But there's no seriousness in the way he comes across. The main thing I believe: He can still hold his head up high and no damage done regarding respect from his players. Not only that he's managed to feed himself a bit more slack which could of course be useful.
 
I see a debate today among a few journalist's as to if we are currently pound for pound the worst professional football team in the world.

And when you look at the money spent on the squad and the salaries been paid out put them against the results and minus goal difference etc it is certainly a valid argument to make.
 
I believe this comment has been misrepresented. There was numerous media comments about the team being the worst in history in certain stats. Ruben possibly lost something in translation.
 
2 man midfield said:
The problem is, the squad ragnick was talking about was rotten and was cleared out. But we somehow replaced them with more deadwood.

Lingard, Matic, Wan Bissaka, De Gea, Telles, Pogba, Cavani, Mata, Andreas Pereira, Jones, Fred, Bailly, McTominay…they’re all gone. And we got worse :lol:
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So you’re saying Rashford is the problem and once he’s gone the good times will come.
 
Betson said:
I see a debate today among a few journalist's as to if we are currently pound for pound the worst professional football team in the world.

And when you look at the money spent on the squad and the salaries been paid out put them against the results and minus goal difference etc it is certainly a valid argument to make.
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Don't think it's even close. Relative to transfer fees and wages we have the worst team ever assembled
 
Carragher and Petit think it was a bad idea to say what he said. But can the players get much worse though maybe it’ll give them the wake up call they need .
 
Red00012 said:
Carragher and Petit think it was a bad idea to say what he said. But can the players get much worse though maybe it’ll give them the wake up call they need .
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They're right. In as much as he's correct, he shouldn't have come out and said it. Blame the officials, blame yourself, say neutral things -

But imagine a new manager coming to your place of work. You know you've been underperforming. Your coworkers all have too. Morale is rock bottom, you have seen some friends get laid off, and more is coming.

Then your manager goes out in the press and says you're literally the worst team he's ever worked with, maybe the worst of all time. How the hell do you motivate yourself to turn up and do your best now? Maybe you're a professional and you agree. Maybe you blame your coworkers. But he's brought this shit hot system that supposed worked at a much smaller factory, with a lot less deadline pressure involved, tried to implement it, and nobody knows what they're doing and to be honest it doesn't look like it's working it just seems to be making everything even more of a mess.

It's just asking to be relegated. The players need to be picked up, or answers need to be found, because it's clearly not working. Maybe there's going to be more time in the summer but everyone's going to be fired by then.

You're probably just going to be looking for a new job the whole time and going through the motions. We need the (admittedly journeymen) squad to actually give a shit again. Because they did win the FA cup not so long ago, and they've individually proven they're not all championship shit, no matter what anyone says. Ruben needs to find a way.
 
Red00012 said:
Carragher and Petit think it was a bad idea to say what he said. But can the players get much worse though maybe it’ll give them the wake up call they need .
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Have to be honest haven't listened to Petit, ever I think. But do listen to Carra a lot, not always through choice but because he is on things like the overlap.

If Klopp had said that Carra would have been all for it. If a UTD manager says water is wet Carra argues against it.

Edit: just switched on MNF and Petit is speaking.
 
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Marwood said:
Because there are benefits and costs to saying things.
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What are the costs? Are they going to play worse? The fact is a lot of people have to face the truth and come through the other side of that mental battle. We can’t all keep pretending that we just need a left back and everything will be fine. All the players that join us get worse. At some point they have to develop a mentality befitting to a Manchester United player. The shirt weights heavy and they have to accept it and come back mentally stronger or get out.
 
simplyared said:
We see this many times with managers who are at big clubs. Klopp when Liverpool went off the rails and suddenly losing every game. Pep recently and Ange the same. In their post match interviews after their 6th defeat in a row, for example, getting the same questions repeatedly thrown at them. They become more and more incoherent and look more vulnerable the longer it goes on. Watching Pep post match was becoming a pain.
When Ruben said Utd were probably going through the worst period in their history, he said it to throw the journos off guard. The motto is when put under press do the unexpected. He even said he was giving them some headlines to work with.
A way of showing he's still got control!
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Klopp and Pep going through such periods after plenty of success is one things. Amorim and Ange simply don't have that record at their respective clubs to make it anywhere near similar. Maybe he's showing control of the narrative but it does nothing to represent control on footballing matters imo
 
simplyared said:
We see this many times with managers who are at big clubs. Klopp when Liverpool went off the rails and suddenly losing every game. Pep recently and Ange the same. In their post match interviews after their 6th defeat in a row, for example, getting the same questions repeatedly thrown at them. They become more and more incoherent and look more vulnerable the longer it goes on. Watching Pep post match was becoming a pain.
When Ruben said Utd were probably going through the worst period in their history, he said it to throw the journos off guard. The motto is when put under press do the unexpected. He even said he was giving them some headlines to work with.
A way of showing he's still got control!
Click to expand...
I'd agree with that, he's under pressure he didn't expect some of these errors in matches that cost plus the performances as well.
 
Red00012 said:
Carragher and Petit think it was a bad idea to say what he said. But can the players get much worse though maybe it’ll give them the wake up call they need .
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What a surprise….
Look, in terms of results and attitude, we are one of the worst United teams. So why the controversy
 
Couldn't care less what Carragher or the talkshite crew think or say. Ineos needs to back this guy or look like utter tits, that starts in this window
 
Macca7 said:
I like Amorim, but does no-one else feel it's a massive risk backing him fully with his 3-4-2-1 system? If we do eventually back him and buy him players to suit his system that is. If it hasn't worked out in another 2-3 years time then we're stuck with players built for his system meaning another massive rebuild for the next manager. It just seems short-sighted to me.
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There is always a risk, no one knows if Amorim is going to be successful, personally I believe he won't get 2-3 years, maximum another year, if he's lucky and results improve.
 
crossy1686 said:
What are the costs? Are they going to play worse? The fact is a lot of people have to face the truth and come through the other side of that mental battle. We can’t all keep pretending that we just need a left back and everything will be fine. All the players that join us get worse. At some point they have to develop a mentality befitting to a Manchester United player. The shirt weights heavy and they have to accept it and come back mentally stronger or get out.
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Yeah they probably can get worse. I still think the effort levels and professionalism are there for most.

It's not a major deal but I just don't see the point.

We've gone from "to the media I support my players" to "this lot are the worst."
 
Escobar said:
What a surprise….
Look, in terms of results and attitude, we are one of the worst United teams. So why the controversy
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Because, he is the guy that needs to go in front of the group to lift them up from a very low point is telling them i think you are the worst of them all now perform.

It does not work that way in any management, maybe if you are close to the top and tease the group a bit to get a performance maybe. But not when the team has been underperforming with previous manager, not able to get to grips with new system, their morale is shattered. #]

Once again very naïve and poor management from Amorim. By far we had a worst team when Cleverly and Gibson were in the middle of the pitch, but the man on the touch line knew how to motivate his team.
 
Marwood said:
Yeah they probably can get worse. I still think the effort levels and professionalism are there for most.

It's not a major deal but I just don't see the point.

We've gone from "to the media I support my players" to "this lot are the worst."
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It’s not though, they play scared and something has to snap them out of it because nothing is working. They don’t run anywhere near as much as the opposition, the stats show that much.

The comment was said jokingly also, he didn’t come out and go full Mourinho on the players. I’m sure he does support them, but is he supposed to lie to not hurt their sensitive feelings? People are saying far worse about them on here.

He’s mentioned relegation and now the worst United team ever. They have two options, prove him right or wake the feck up and show that you are embarrassed to have those things associated with your name.
 
I listened to the press conference. English isn't his first language so he might have phrased it better, but it seemed to me that he was voicing the thoughts of the pressmen in front of him. I really hope he can turn things around for the club and that they back him to the hilt no matter what happens.
 
Betson said:
I see a debate today among a few journalist's as to if we are currently pound for pound the worst professional football team in the world.

And when you look at the money spent on the squad and the salaries been paid out put them against the results and minus goal difference etc it is certainly a valid argument to make.
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Yes but you only know at the end of the season. People love to judge as soon as possible, as unlikely as it looked last season we ended on a high - no reason we can't go far in EL and domestic cups and have a respectable end to the season.
 
GazTheLegend said:
They're right. In as much as he's correct, he shouldn't have come out and said it. Blame the officials, blame yourself, say neutral things -

But imagine a new manager coming to your place of work. You know you've been underperforming. Your coworkers all have too. Morale is rock bottom, you have seen some friends get laid off, and more is coming.

Then your manager goes out in the press and says you're literally the worst team he's ever worked with, maybe the worst of all time. How the hell do you motivate yourself to turn up and do your best now? Maybe you're a professional and you agree. Maybe you blame your coworkers. But he's brought this shit hot system that supposed worked at a much smaller factory, with a lot less deadline pressure involved, tried to implement it, and nobody knows what they're doing and to be honest it doesn't look like it's working it just seems to be making everything even more of a mess.

It's just asking to be relegated. The players need to be picked up, or answers need to be found, because it's clearly not working. Maybe there's going to be more time in the summer but everyone's going to be fired by then.

You're probably just going to be looking for a new job the whole time and going through the motions. We need the (admittedly journeymen) squad to actually give a shit again. Because they did win the FA cup not so long ago, and they've individually proven they're not all championship shit, no matter what anyone says. Ruben needs to find a way.
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Very Good Analogy, some here keep on repeating Neville's and Keane's nonsense that players are not human beings and the input of the manager does not have significant bearing on their performance. In the mean time most universities around the world have and are still studying Sir Alex's leadership and its impact to the club success. go figure
 
Whilst it's true, don't think it was wise to say short term.

Media personnel already running away with this statement (even though the sentiment of it is somewhat true). Narrative now is that statements like this don't help with player confidence, and makes the situation worse.

Optics around the club mean you can't say stuff like this. But then again, we can't just keep sugar coating stuff. Someone has to take the flak and say something. Glad he's done that, long term people will come back to that statement much like Rangnick's.
 
During the season we were relegated we played some real crap, but the spirit was always there, the team kept trying, and, just as now, every now and then we'd great a great result, but it was all too little in the end. Tommy Docherty said we would be straight back, and we believed him and we were! Docherty had already started rebuilding and for the new season in Division 2 we had a young, vital, exciting team who swept all before them and romped back to the the top flight as Champions.
The current team is blessed with some very good players but whats lacking in too many players is the desire to get stuck in and fight for everything and make things happen. Too many drop their heads or at times seem not to care. Therefore I agree with Amorim, this is the worst United team Ive seen. I dont think we'll be involved in a relegation fight which is good as I dont think we have enough players with the right attitude to win; and if the unthinkable did happen, I cant see us coming straight back up again.
 
Ronaldo's ego said:
Ruben is throwing them in on a weekly basis.
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They have to stop playing scared, it’s that simple. Ten Hag would come out and talk about the process and then make them run extra sessions in training. Amorim seems to be giving them days off for recovery but saying it how it is. I would suspect the players prefer this approach to be honest. It’s not like he’s lying
 
A stupid thing to say from a stupid manager. Sorry. I know he's a nice guy but he is just foolhardy, totally arrogant and just another club recruit who is massively overrated. He says he wont change anything despite the disastrous run of results. And then somehow thinks that saying publicly that this is possibly the worst Man Utd side in the club's history is somehow going to motivate these players. You might think it..but for God's sake you don't bloody say it.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

The club has gone from bad to far far far worse.
 
The worst team in Manutd's history should have beat one of the best teams in Liverpool's history.
 
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